{ "episodeId": "SLP562", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "christoph_ono": { "name": "Christoph Ono", "role": "guest", "tag": "CHRISTOPH" }, "mogashni_naidoo": { "name": "Mogashni Naidoo", "role": "guest", "tag": "MOGASHNI" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.44, "text": "Hi, you're watching Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Swan dot com. Have you wondered about the role of design in Bitcoin applications? Well, today I've got some experts joining me, Christoph and Mogashni, who are joining me from the Bitcoin design community, and we talk about some various ideas like how design can create trust, how you can leverage design principles in your own Bitcoin products, as well as some of the Bitcoin specific design challenges. I had an interesting chat, and I believe you'll get some value out of this also. So onto my chat with Christoph and Mo." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:45", "start": 45.06, "text": "Christoph and Mogashni, welcome to the show. Thanks for having" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "00:48", "start": 48.16, "text": "us, Stefan. Super happy to be here, thank you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:52", "start": 52.11, "text": "Great. So I know you guys are part of the Bitcoin design community, so we're gonna get into that, but, let's just start with a little bit of a background on yourself. How did you guys get into doing this Bitcoin design stuff?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "01:04", "start": 63.52, "text": "I would say ladies first." }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "01:05", "start": 65.42, "text": "Very kind of you, Christoph, thank you. I somehow had this idea three years ago that I wanted to research two Bitcoin wallets, and I found myself into the bit, my way into the Bitcoin design community, and that's been the beginning of my journey, which, which seems to continue now. yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:25", "start": 85.05, "text": "And, and were you doing this kind of work, you know, outside of Bitcoin beforehand or?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "01:30", "start": 90.29, "text": "I've always been a researcher, I've always worked as a consultant in research, I've always been an entrepreneur, and so I decided to actually study front end development I decided that me and code weren't friends, and somewhere along the line while studying front end development, I came across this thing called UX design, and I was like, \"What is that? I've never come across that before.\" And then UX design was the perfect Triangulation between psychology, design, and research, and it was those three passions that I've always had, and I was like, \"This is what I'm supposed to be doing.\" And, always being passionate about freedom in itself as a concept. So freedom for money is, is something that definitely pulled me into the Bitcoin space." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:14", "start": 133.92, "text": "And for you, Christoph." }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "02:15", "start": 135.36, "text": "Yeah. So, I've been-- I grew up with computers, but studied traditional graphic design and... Been now doing digital design for about twenty, pretty much twenty years now. Nice. and, like two thousand and seventeen, a friend of mine, like I was kind of at a time in my career where I felt like, you know, I've, I've done this for like thirteen years, I feel like I've seen everything. Then a friend told me about Bitcoin, and I kind of dug into it a little bit, and I discovered this like whole new world. It's like this whole ecosystem, this whole culture, this whole way of doing this principled building, and I realized I was working, for a startup at the same time that was doing well, but I just thought this was just, there was just something really unique and special there, and I just couldn't let my hands off, so I, you know, I, I decided like, this is, this is something really worth digging into, like there's some new ground, you know, to be, explored here. So that, that was, and then for about two and a half years, I helped out with Monero GUI, which just kind of slipped into that," }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "03:21", "start": 201.27, "text": "Design via the community and foundation," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:23", "start": 203.27, "text": "though. Great, okay, so I think, people will wanna start with why, right? So why do all this design stuff? Why is it even important?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "03:32", "start": 211.65, "text": "I mean, I can just, just tap into that story. So, you know, w-when I, when I tried out the first wallet, I was like, you know, this is, this is incredibly powerful, technology here. Like, if you really think about the, the role of money in the world, like everyone uses money, it is super meaningful. You, you work, And if that can be made digital, natively digital, that is a, that is just more powerful than, you know, email messaging, like so many other things, right? And we need to get this right. And then I realized there was this open source aspect to it, and it really only works if it stays open source, incredibly neutral in all of this. And I've just seen it in my career so many times where you can have the greatest technology, you can have like RSS or email or, you know, other things, and they can kind of be captured by, you know- corporations and whatnot. So I feel like I really want to see Bitcoin succeed, and I think we need really great open source design ecosystem and really solid applications that work for a ton of people around the world for different use cases for that to actually be the case. So I, I enjoy design, I love designing, but I also see it as kind of essential for Bitcoin to kind of really fulfill its, potential. So for me, it's like, I'm, I'm excited about this. I'm excited to, to help and chip in there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:53", "start": 293.31, "text": "Yeah. And Mogashni, anything to add there?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "04:56", "start": 295.57, "text": "Good design creates trust. We need more trust in the applications that we build. We're, we're building products where people are putting in their financial wealth. And if the trust isn't there with using the application, then we can say goodbye to our users. And so good design creates trust, and it's not just about building pretty things. It's about building an interactive experience. So for me, it's about how can we build user interfaces that create more trust in the eyes of our users So that they keep on using our applications and that they tell their friends about it. Yeah, and that's" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "05:37", "start": 337.09, "text": "a, that's a really big hurdle. I talked to someone recently, someone from India, and he said, \"Well, he doesn't trust Bitcoin because there's no government fallback, right?\" Which is like, okay, that's kind of the point, right? But, you know, we have these existing, existing systems in society that people just kind of trust. And to trust cryptography, to trust that you can manage your keys, that you only do that if you really feel like you have great Applications that, you know, like, that, that take you along for the journey and help you do this thing right, because like otherwise, you know, it's, it's money, it's very, it's very risky." }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "06:12", "start": 372.01, "text": "I mean, I'm sure You can remember the first time you downloaded a Bitcoin wallet and how you felt and what sort, sort of psychological process you had to go through before you made the decision Decision, like I trust this wallet, I'm gonna put my Bitcoin on there, and that's what good design does. It's, it's, it's, it's building a relationship with the users of the application." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:35", "start": 395.07, "text": "Yeah, that's, interesting as well. I think people have often, you know, in this space, obviously there's been a lot of scams and a lot of people losing money, so there's a lot of paranoia, and, people are- Reluctant, let's say, to just try out new things, or at least if they do, they'll, they'll, you know, maybe try it with a small amount, not, you know, put their whole stack on some, you know, random new wallet or things like that. And so that's, you know, people have relied on that idea of Let's say trial by fire, like this tool has been out there for ten years or for five years and it's, it's solid and now I'm gonna start to trust it a little bit more. And, so let's- Bring it, just to explain a little bit about where you guys are coming from, the Bitcoin design community. I know Spiral is, funding, some of the, the grants and some of the work here. Can you just explain a bit, just to give us an overview on what is the Bitcoin design community?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "07:31", "start": 451.29, "text": "Yeah, I can, I can start with the origin story, and then Bo maybe you want to explain the, the current state a little bit, how about that? So the, Spiral, when Spiral started as Square Crypto, they wanted to hire some engineers and they wanted to hire a designer, to kind of create this task force to then figure out what they wanted to do. That, I think that was before they decided to do LDK and BDK and the other various initiatives. And, then they just interviewed a ton of different designers, and they realized there were these, there Who really worked in those silos and they felt kind of, you know, like lonely by themselves, and they were all kind of reinventing the wheel. So they decided, you know, how about we just bring everyone together in this design community and create a space where design can happen, where they can together discuss these problems, you know, find good solutions that can be applied across the whole ecosystem, really learn from each other, and then ideally there, there are all these positive effects that happen and, you know, all kinds of good design work happens over time. I think there's also the- realization that, for, to accommodate all these many different use cases around the world, you need a ton of different projects, you need a lot of different, designers that are placed around the world to solve these problems more locally, maybe Right, so you need kind of a community. So that's, those kind of the starting points. And then, there were initially the like eight to ten grants were given or so, and a whole bunch of people have come and gone, and, and some have moved on to do different things, like Bosch is now a driver, shout out to him. Steven's at Voltage, Eddie is at-- actually, he didn't get-- Eddie is a great guy, he's at Foundation now, but he actually didn't get a grant, he has been doing this on the side. so all kinds of, oh yeah, John's has, done bold fun now. So there have been all kinds of cool relationships and stories and, and projects that come out of things. And today we're, I'll leave that to Mo, how about that?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "09:27", "start": 566.59, "text": "Yeah, sure, I'll take over from there. Today we have the Bitcoin Design Foundation, and, I just wanna give a shout out to Daniel as well because he's not here on this call, but he's been, he's been one of the, you know, people who was one of the starting members of the Bitcoin Design community and, was one of the one- One of the people who came up with the idea of the Bitcoin Design Guide as well. But, the community, you know, as, as Christoph mentioned, very grateful for Spiral for, you know, creating this initial ecosystem and the support system to fund people to work in this space. And now we have the Bitcoin Design Foundation, which is serving as a facilitator really. So the Bitcoin Design Foundation is facilitating, you know, bringing more people into the space. To support good design in the ecosystem at large. and, you know, Christoph, I don't know if you wanna take off, off from there as well. Yeah, I was" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "10:26", "start": 626.03, "text": "gonna say we have these, these three pieces really. There's the Discord, where people just-- it's an open forum, you can hang out, there are different channels across different topics, categories, some are related to projects, some are to technologies. There's one for Summer of Bitcoin, we started recently because there's some mentoring happening there as well, and that is really just an open forum. To bring people together and allow that conversation to happen. Then, something also from very early on, that's where you, you hear about the Bitcoin Design Guide, the UI Kit, Icons, UX Research Kit. That's the idea of creating public resources. So as a developer, you know, you never start from scratch, you pull in some framework, some libraries, and you build on top of those, right? So designers doesn't really exist that well, right? But, the idea is then we have these resources that we work together as a community, continuously improved. And then when you start a project, you know, you have this really great foundation to, to start with. that's the second part. And the third part, that's where these col-colaborations come in. Mo is involved in some project, I'm involved in some other project, there's some overlap. So you have all these different people in the community with various types of involvement, and we-- they're involved in different Different projects at different times and different capacities. Like you might have a brand designer or a web designer who maybe, like, you don't need a web or brand designer, right, for like two years, right? They might come in and help with a project at a certain time. You might have someone who really works with a project for really long time, like Eddie, who I mentioned earlier, who works with the joint market, web UI. So that's kind of the three pillars, the, you know, the community, the, public resources, if you will, and then the, Operations." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:06", "start": 725.74, "text": "Gotcha. Okay, yeah. So, yeah, that's a good, summary there. And so let's also talk about what most people are getting wrong. I think that might make it interesting for people in terms of, let's say there are You know, people thinking about building Bitcoin products and apps, what are some common mistakes or common things that people, neglect to do from a design perspective?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "12:28", "start": 748.28, "text": "Or would you like to kick that off? I'm happy to kick that one off. Design isn't just about what you see, I think most people think that, you know, have the misconception that design is this, this flat, you know, static thing that you see on your screen in front of you But design is so much more, it's interactive. It is an interactive conversation that you're having with the person who's using your Bitcoin wallet. to give a, a practical thing, you know, Bitcoin, what I think Bitcoin wallets can do a lot better is start to build repertoire and have a conversation with their users as opposed to Just pushing a very specific user experience, you know, down the user's throats, if I could put it that bluntly. try to have a bit more of a back-and-forth conversation, just like we are right now, you know? You give and you take. So something that's very intricate that I see within, within an application when, when I'm onboarding myself is, is how much of information is that application taking from me? And how much of feedback am I getting as I'm giving information? So that's the one thing that I'll touch on, and the second thing that I'll touch on is error messages, error messages and error states. I think that that is highly neglected in the state, in the space When your user is on your Bitcoin wallet and they've made a mistake and they've typed in the numbers incorrectly and your application isn't giving good feedback about what they're doing wrong, they're in a position of, of fear, like, \"I don't know what's going on, like, help me here.\" And they're, you know, Bitcoin wallets are in a very good position to give them proper feedback about what's going wrong and make them feel safe again, because they then move from a space of, \"I don't feel safe, I don't know what's going on,\" to, \"Okay, like the application gives them feedback, lets them know this is what you're doing wrong, and guide them in the right direction.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:26", "start": 866.04, "text": "Yeah, that's really interesting. I, I think I, I can relate to that in a way because, let me put it this way, Bitcoin has come from this, let's say, open source, online kind of hardcore community, and it's kind of seen where, you know, in those earlier days, it was seen, you know, there's a famous acronym RTFM, Read the F-ing Manual, right? And it's kind of like, \"Oh, you're a noob, you're doing it wrong,\" RTFM, right? And that's kind of, you know, that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:56", "start": 895.74, "text": "The, you know, maybe some of the apps kind of came from, and it was kind of seen like, you know, it's your rite of passage, learn how to do it correctly, or, you know, go, go be a hacker man and do the CLI way without even using a UI at all, right? And that's kind of like where maybe, you know, historically it might have come from. And then I think what happens is there's this curse of knowledge idea, right? Because once you've been in for a while and you are very familiar with using these Bitcoin apps and wallets For a new person when they're coming in, and so then you kind of forget all the things that you know that you sort of, you treat it like, \"Oh, it's just tacit knowledge, everybody just kind of already knows this thing,\" but actually they really, really don't. And so then new people are scared, right, when they open this wallet and it, it kind of gives them these crazy prompts and they don't know exactly what's going on. And I think to your point, it, it is about, building trust with that user. so as you mentioned Asking questions for your user, so I guess some apps now are starting to do like a questionnaire thing, like, are you a beginner or an intermediate or an advanced user? And then the secondary part, as you mentioned, was around error messages. So, yeah. Let's talk a little bit about some examples. I know, I think- Off the top of my head, I think Bitkit is one example where I think they do ask you some questions as part of the setup for that wallet, like, \"Oh, how much, how, what is the size of the Lightning channel you'd like?\" That kind of thing. Are there any other examples, you know, that you're aware of where maybe the wallet actually asks you the questions and you actually answer those questions?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "16:34", "start": 993.86, "text": "It's very delicate, you know, it's the conversation that happens, It's very much, you can imagine someone onboarding themselves onto a wallet, and it's, you know, you can keep the onboarding process very short, but you can also create a relationship in the beginning, and that's where this conversation comes in, this sort of back and forth. So, for example, if you're onboarding yourself onto a Lightning wallet, you know, you can ask them like, you know, what is the purpose of using this wallet? Are you going to be sort of sharing your liquidity with other people? Or are you going to be just using it for your own personal sort of low expense things? Get that sort of feedback in the beginning, have a conversation, and then confirm the feedback that the user gives to you. I can't actually think of a practical example that I've seen in a Lightning wallet, if I can be very honest, of something where I've seen a sort of conversation happening. It's something that I'd like to see more of. you know, in wallets, but I, I can't think of a practical situation. I, I don't know if you can, Christoph. Yeah. One" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:35", "start": 1054.59, "text": "other thing I would point out here as well, I'm curious to get your reactions on it is When I'm teaching a new person, oftentimes, now of course, I give them the standard, you know, write down these twelve words, don't show anybody, don't take a picture, don't put it on your cloud, don't put it on your Dropbox or your Google Drive or anything. You know, like you, you tell them all these things about being careful with those twelve words. But actually, one of the challenges is impressing on that person how important it is to not lose, you know, those twelve or twenty-four words. And maybe that is also part of the," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:10", "start": 1089.6, "text": "Can, help potentially." }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "18:12", "start": 1092.12, "text": "Yeah, for sure. so we, we spend a whole bunch of time on that. And, so the twelve words-- so one thing that we came up with that we talk about in the Bitcoin Design Guide as well is that, you actually offer a template to print out, because grabbing a piece of paper by itself, a post-it, that's disposable, right? If you have a nicely printed sheet where, you know, you manually fill in your information and it looks kind of proper and legit, you can fold it up, put it in a Envelopes, you know, put your mark on it, put it in a safe or so. That already creates a little bit of a, bit of a ceremony that makes it more important. You put a date on there, you put down which wallet you used. You, you're not, you don't, you wanna print kind of an empty template, like even if you're an output descriptor or other things, like there's some non-sensitive information you can print out, but anything sensitive should be manually written down. And then you make them put it away. And then the other thing I would say there" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "19:09", "start": 1148.82, "text": "Words aren't that important until you put a meaningful amount of money, associate with them. So, and that's where, that's where a wallet can-- if you have a single-sig wallet, if you have a lightning wallet, or so they can tell you like, you know, the amount of money you have in this wallet isn't appropriate to your security level. You should really upgrade here. And that's something we have in the, in the guide as well. So a lightning wallet could offer you to automatically move something to cold storage automatically or prompt you to it. A single-sig wallet That could say, or a single sig hot wallet or whatever, could say, you know, you should move to something else, here are a few options, please consider this, and it could remind you every six months or so. So there's not just the singular moment at the beginning, because at the beginning, those words aren't associated with any value. That just kinda happens later over time in helping people. It's just like Signal reminds you every couple weeks or so to type in your PIN so you don't forget it. These kind of health checks and security checks, I think are, are pretty great. Implementing more often." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:10", "start": 1210.06, "text": "Yeah. Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I often check mempool dot space when I wanna see what the prevailing fee rates are and to keep track on various things in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Mempool dot space has various dashboards that you can use. Of course, there is the front page just to see the fee rates, but you can also see the mining tab. You can see there's a lightning tab. There's even a liquid tab. There's just so many things that you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:39", "start": 1239.14, "text": "Ecosystem and mempool dot space is there con- constantly upgrading and updating visualizations and ways of understanding what's going on. So if you're interested in this, go to mempool dot space and note they've got an accelerator program, so you can sign up for that at mempool dot space slash accelerator. When it comes to securing your Bitcoin, coinkite dot com is the place to go. Coinkite is my favorite provider of Bitcoin security hardware. They have the Cold Card, they have a-- various other devices that you can use to either secure your coins Coins or maybe backup and make sure that you can recover your coins. So with the Coldcard, the Q or the Tapsigner, you can use a security device to keep your keys offline, and this is a really important, concept for us in Bitcoin security because we don't want our private keys touching online connected devices, or at least devices that are always online. It's better to keep them in offline devices and use them to sign Bitcoin transactions. Now, with the Coldcard, you can use it with various devices or With various pieces of software such as Sparrow Wallet, Specter Desktop, Electrum, Nunchuk, Keeper, and various others. With the Coldcard, you can use various security techniques, whether that's single signature, whether that is using a passphrase, whether that's using multi-signature. I like the Coldcard security model because it has various components that help you by providing a defense-in-depth approach. So for example, the Coldcard has firmware checks. It, it, it's checking to make sure Ensure that the firmware that you're updating it with is correct, and that can help you. There are also anti-fishing, words that can help you in the case of an evil maid attack, because if that device has been tampered with, those, those anti-fishing words will be different. So there's lots of features and a lot of careful thought has gone into the creation of the Coldcard and the security model. So that's why I use it as part of various setups of my own, and I recommend it also. So go to get, go to getyours at coinkite Your cold cards. And now back to the show. I think it's also, maybe there's also a life cycle stage here, not just of the users, but also of the developers, right? Because a new wallet or app developer, he might be great at coding, but he's not good at design, and maybe that's where the disconnect is, right? Because maybe, you know, genuinely, it's just, you know, specialization of labor, right? Not every-- Everyone isn't good at everything, and there are certain tasks that you are, you are good at and you're bad Start a wallet, they tend to be more technical, tech savvy, and maybe not as focused on the UI and the design components of it. So maybe that's just a kind of a, a life cycle thing, and then as that wallet becomes bigger, more popular, more funded Or it's run by a bigger company, now they can leverage more professionalized design, research, UI resources." }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "23:34", "start": 1413.59, "text": "Yeah, exactly. That's, that's totally a good thing, and that's the same for startups or any, any other type of company. Even with larger companies, you sometimes hear that they replace their executives or so the situations change, someone else is needed for a different stage of growth or so. I think that's a normal human group dynamic, and a lot of, a lot of projects start why someone's just being fascinated or wants to build something, BTC- Server, server, what's the famous tweet that started it? I will put you out of business. Right, this is lies, I'll make you obsolete, yeah. And, you know, look at BTC Pay server, what it's grown to today with all these satellite events, and they're doing this work like with Madeira, you know, building all these point of sales. And there's definitely a growth and kind of a maturation that has to happen. And the people at the beginning, they're kind of essential to, to understand that their role has to change a little bit, and not everyone It's their problem, right? But, and some people they really invite this community in and are open to adjusting the process, giving over maybe some of the responsibilities to other people. That's a really organic thing, and we see quite a bit, of that happen too. I mean, Alby started, I, I think Alby started as a hackathon, lightning hackathon project, and then we helped them come up with the name and the logo and the website, and it was-- they, they hosted, it was hosted in the, in the Bitcoin Design Space. Slack and our Discord for a long time, and it's just kind of grown into this whole separate thing. Their designer is still very active in the community. So we see these things, and sometimes it happens, and sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. But yeah, it's, I feel like there's also kind of, you can also plateau at a certain point, right? And I think a lot of projects, a lot of wallets have not gotten to the point where I would love to see like this really thorough implementation of, of contacts and, and activity and some of these health checks And kind of this intelligent support of, of users, I'd love to help with that, of course as well." }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "25:33", "start": 1533.07, "text": "I'm gonna throw one more, you know, one, one more screwdriver into this, this conversation as well, and, We have these community calls in the Bitcoin design community, and during one of the calls, we also discussed that there's so much of room and freedom in the space at the moment to be very creative with the designs of the wallets that we're bringing forward. so, you know, just, you know, that's just coming back to that last question you asked, what do most people get wrong about design? At the moment, we have the standard, you know, Bitcoin Lightning wallet and You know, at the moment, there's, there's a lot of room within that sphere to, to go a bit out of the box and be very playful and be very creative with what we are designing, and I feel like we're just not quite there yet, which is okay because then we have this beautiful mountain to climb together, you know? But there's a lot of room to design for a very specific- type of persona and a lot of wallets can really take advantage of that as an opportunity, like make that design of that wallet suit that person, you know? And I'm gonna throw something crazy out there, like a skater or something, you know? Or a surfer, I don't know, you know, you can really be playful and creative in the design, of the wallet. So" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "26:51", "start": 1610.6, "text": "yeah. And I think that's, so the, there's a saying that the, the product reflects the org chart of your company, right? the point being that companies create certain products because they ha-- they need to have, business and, and profit and all of this stuff. governments create certain types of things, and open source projects can create something unique, right? Because it's a unique way of working together. Together. So we could have like the wildest, craziest Bitcoin wallets and products out there, and sometimes you see that, like the, the BitX, group that, you know, takes apart ASICs, re-inver- what is it, re-um, re-engineers them and like builds their own crazy little home mining devices. I think that's really cool. So yeah, I, I, I think there's a very unique design opportunity in open source and, and Bitcoin that we could, tap into a bit more." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:40", "start": 1659.73, "text": "Yeah, I see. Just while I was picking through the website and having a look, I saw in the Bitcoin design kit there was this usage lifecycle, which I thought would be really interesting as well for users, something called out to me because, okay, so let me just explain what I saw and I'm curious to hear your reactions on it. So I was looking at this usage lifecycle and I saw, you know, there's unaware Aware, interested, first use, regular use, passionate use. So it's kind of like, there's a life cycle there of, you know, using different Bitcoin apps and products. And I think probably the counterintuitive thing that came across from here, from this, to me was You know, I'm pretty much all day when I'm talking about Bitcoin, I'm talking to other people who are in the regular use or passionate use. I'm barely e- even talking to people who are in that unaware or aware category. But It's like we're, we're stuck in this little echo chamber or little bubble world because I'm only speaking to the people who are passionate users or regular users, and I'm barely interacting with the people who aren't aware or aware, but they actually represent a big percent of, let's say, the app users, things like that. So I thought that was really, really well put and counterintuitive. I'm curious, if you ha-if you have any other insights or anything like that you wanna add there." }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "29:00", "start": 1740.27, "text": "If I may, because I, I love that page too, I came across that long time ago, two thousand twelve or something, that idea first, and I think it's so important. And that was something that I was gonna say that, people, people misunderstand. So user experience is like a sequence of events, right? It's, it's like a, it's like a movie, right? You, you don't, if you, if you hop in, you know, halfway through a movie, it's not gonna make sense to you, right? You need the introduction of the characters" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "29:30", "start": 1769.55, "text": "It's really the first time you hear about a product, the first time you hear about Sparrow or Bitkey or Zeus or Bitcoin Core or whatever it is, like the first time you hear it, and then you might ignore it, but you might hear it again. Then at some point, you might be like, \"Um, you know, let me figure out what that is.\" Someone tells you about it, you go to the website, you take a look at it, you, you kind of get a, you form a rough model of what this thing is about and what problems it's meant to solve" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "30:00", "start": 1799.55, "text": "That's kind of the aware stage, right? Ideally, you make it to interested, you still don't exactly know in detail, you don't really care about the detailed features, but you realize like, \"I have this problem here in my life, like this seems like something that will help me.\" And then you maybe go to the first use. That's where you need to have, have a further introduction to some of the mechanics of it. And then ideally, you know, you have a good first experience, you get your wallet, maybe you just have a address, and that was kind of all the, all everything you wanted, and over time it kind of develops, you keep coming back to it. I think it's a super sensitive thing, and I think this framework really helps resolve a lot of design discussions. I've heard it so many times in projects where it's like, \"Oh, we need a simple mode and we need an advanced mode, right? For, for kind of the, the one that abstracts it all away and the" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "30:50", "start": 1849.91, "text": "Usage lifecycle mode, perspective is that you don't need that, right? You'd-- if you guide people step by step through this experience deeper and place like the more complex things, the things that more the regular or the power users need, if you place them a little bit further, if you explain the concepts a little bit earlier, then you can guide people very smoothly into all kinds of complexities. And if you look at like video games, Super Mario or, I don't know, these super complex games out there, like they do a great job Up with all these little, they teach you the initial mechanics, you learn how, you know, bump against this little block to get the gold coin or bump on the head of the turtle or so, and then very quickly, ten minutes later, you're doing all kinds of crazy movements and navigating this world very effectively. So I'm a huge, huge fan of this, usage life cycle. And if I may give- May, may give a little bit of, of a negative example here, which we're also helping to improve. If you look at Bitcoin Core dot org, or even if the, the Bitcoin Core, page on Bitcoin dot org, there's no screenshot of what the Bitcoin Q wallet looks like. There's no list of features. You have no idea really what it does or, or what problems it's meant to address. And so there are these gaps filling in the kind of, aware slash interested stage. So people download the application, open it up, it instantly like starts to know, it starts like syncing blocks, and they're like, and they already, the wallet was already created in the background, they're like, \"Okay, seems cool, but I don't understand at all what's going on. I have no idea what I got myself into.\" So I'm a, I'm a huge fan. I'll say that again. Please, please study this usage lifecycle, consider it in your design process." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:33", "start": 1952.76, "text": "Yeah. That's a great example with video games, right? As many, especially, you know There's actually a lot of complexity, it's just that the, the way the game designers set it up is that you learned as you went int- through the levels. And so maybe it's a similar thing with, you know, Bitcoin apps, Bitcoin wallets that, people have to learn as they go through the different levels of using Bitcoin and Lightning and things like this. so also let's talk a little bit about How you do what you do. So you've mentioned, so you mentioned there's three parts, right? You've got the Discord and the community part, you've got the design guide and the UI kit, and then you've got these projects where you go and actually collaborate with some of the different projects, like you mentioned, Bitcoin Core and I believe Blixt and a few others out there. do you wanna just talk through what it looks like when you- When you go, when you guys go to work with a Bitcoin app, what does that look like?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "33:29", "start": 2008.71, "text": "Christoph and I have worked on a-- I've had the pleasure of working with Christoph for a couple of years now on a few projects. We work on Bitcoin Core app together the longest, full transparency, literally hopped on those calls, was in the Bitcoin community, I was like, \"Hey, my name's Mo, I'm here.\" I don't know what's going on and I don't understand half of the words you're talking about, but I wanna help and contribute. And now, like a couple years later, I'm still working on Bitcoin Core app with Christoph, but, Projects enter into the community very organically, some of them have been in the community for longer, as I mentioned, like Bitcoin Core app, Christoph mentioned, the Alby team as well. So they'll help into the community, and I think it everything starts off with this initial Conversation of understanding the goals of the project, understanding, the resources that they have available, understanding, you know, understanding the resources that they have available is quite important because if you, if you're able to provide designs to a team and they're not able to implement the designs, then it's, you know, also not a very good use of anyone's time So they'll enter into the community, we'll usually kick it off with, with a call, we'll have a call, we'll ask some questions, we'll sort of prod and ask a few questions, try to build a bit of a A framework of who the project is in front of us, what, what are their needs, and what might be the biggest impact in the design process, and then we'll make a decision in terms of, you know, is there research that's needed here or is there pure design work needed here, and we'll, we'll sort of branch off into one of those two directions. and it's, you know, I mean, it's been such an interesting journey because every single project that we've worked with has been so fun. So dynamic, so, so ready to turn the whole UX design process on its head, and because us, we, that's who we are, we allow them to turn the UX process on its head and do things differently. We welcome that in the community. So I guess that's not a full direct answer to your question, but I guess just to, to sum it up, we follow definitely some, some general guidelines in terms of understanding the project, moving forward in the design process, but we also very much allow the team to guide the direction of the project, you know, we're not the experts. everyone is so, yeah. Yeah. One question on" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:54", "start": 2153.79, "text": "the complexity part, I'm sure there might be developers listening or maybe they might think, \"Well, the thing I'm working on is really, really complex, and how do you skillfully convey that to the users?\" And, you know, in fairness, maybe some of these apps aren't designed for, let's say, end user like retail guy using his phone, maybe they're designed for another developer, like, so their, their, their customer in a sense is another developer or some other entrepreneur or business. builder in the space, and maybe there's like a lot of complexity around, you know, how you configure the thing and use the thing. What do you do when you get to a really complex thing, or complex product? How do you deal with that from a design perspective?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "36:34", "start": 2194.48, "text": "Yeah, I would just add that this is a completely public process. Anyone can, can respond or organize or chip in or just be part of it. And, you know, Mo and I were just two people, there are many other people, they also help out with all of this stuff, and we always try to connect projects with designers and hope, you know, something good happens there. the complexity, we recently had two calls with the ten ten one finance team around the-- Right. I didn't episode with--" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:59", "start": 2218.87, "text": "Recently, yeah." }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "37:00", "start": 2220.17, "text": "Yeah, yeah, exactly. I listened to that one too. Really just us trying to understand how these, syn-synthetic stablecoins work with this, you know, market mechanism and shorting and longing and, you know, how they're backing them and who, what happens in different scenarios. And the first call was just an, it doesn't feel like we didn't feel like we made much progress, it was just this back and forth just to get, to dive in and understand it, and then we kind of needed to digest it. And we had a second call then, and that was more focused around specifically how to separate a very simple- User experience to more, someone who really wants to trade day to day, to, away from the person who just wants to say, \"I just want to have a stable dollar or euro value right now, this is my priority. I wanna press a button, that's it, I'm gonna leave it there for three weeks, and it just, I need to come back and it needs to be there.\" And so the second one was very focused. So I think that's a, that's a good model where we do this initial, exploration call where the project also learns a little How to open up and, and present their, their project and engage with the community, and then there's like some online conversation that happens, and then a second call, goes into like one specific aspect of, yeah, but the, so the, the join market web app, that was actually one of the most complex, projects that, that I was, followed along with, because it's so counterintuitive with all of these, you know, the, the, the coin joins that happen and the mixed depths and things, yeah. They came up with, with these different jar, jelly jar buckets where your funds are distributed, and then the whole yield aspect or earn aspect of it, even the naming of that is, is kind of tricky with your fidelity bonds and all of that. That was really a very mu-long multi-month project with a lot of, iteration. So big, shout out to that team for, for working through that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:56", "start": 2336.13, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Swann dot com is the lead sponsor of this show. Over at Swann dot com, you can buy Bitcoin and learn about Bitcoin, so that's using swan dot com, the website, or using swan bitcoin, which is an application you can find either on Apple iPhone or on Android phones in the Google Play Store. Now you can sign up really quickly on the app, and you can then transfer your dirty fiat in to swan, either using ACH or wire, and then from there you can either do a lump sum purchase or a smash buy, or you can set up an ongoing recurring savings plan. Now many people will take an initial Lump sum and then set up a recurring purchase plan. That's a really great way to go about it, because then as long as you have a long, horizon and you are, continually stacking for a longer period, those coins that you accumulate during the bear markets, they often end up being worth a lot more during the bull cycle. And it also helps you, deal with the volatility of Bitcoin by regularly stacking over time. Now, Swan makes it easy for you because there's a lot of education, and Swan wants you to self-custody your- Your coins. It is free withdrawals. You have free automated withdrawals to your self custody. You can put in your Bitcoin address, you can put in a range of Bitcoin addresses and automatically withdraw your coins. Swan makes it easy for you. So go and sign up there over at swan dot com slash livera to get ten dollars of Bitcoin dropped in your account when you start stacking with Swan. And now back to the show with Christoph and Mo. Yeah. One other thing, when it comes to, let's say, you know, retail facing users with their app. I think there's maybe a lot of room for confusion, when we've got different layers and different aspects of Lightning, as an example, right? Are you doing an on-chain payment? Is it a URI? Like, is it a one QR code that can handle Bitcoin and Lightning? Even in the world of Lightning, there's different types of QRs there. Some people are using like AMP, yeah, and, you know, other, you know, then, and then you have things like LNURL and Lightning address. It can all be very confusing, for somebody who Who's not sort of into the weeds, into the detail, and so that, that user might think, \"Oh, I thought my Lightning wallet could just-- I could just scan and pay, but actually maybe their Lightning wallet doesn't support this feature and that feature.\" I'm curious if you have any thoughts, any ideas on, you know, what, what should be done there around, you know, re-simplifying that?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "41:22", "start": 2481.81, "text": "That is a very huge task. I think there, there are multiple levels. One is that we need these, ecosystem interoperability efforts, like the Bitcoin QR campaign or the Ren Taproot campaign, maybe a Pole Twelve campaign, a Silent Payments campaign, maybe at some point, you know, o-o-others. so I think that's pretty important so the technology actually gets closer and we, we, we start, reducing those gaps so we don't have to solve them on a UI level in the first place. I would also add in, add in Here a multi-level, a multi-language, seed phrases, which can be kind of a helpful thing. There are always these chicken and egg problems in there as well. But yeah, I, so it depends on what product you're, you're designing, but ideally it's good to, to And it takes a lot of craft to kind of not surface these things all the time. So Eric, who works on E-Notes, the, the Cashew Wallet, they also had just had the same question, how do we hide all the different mints? How do we make-- allow you to select the mints at just the right time when it's important, but not show it to you in the interface all the time? but, you know, a user has different relationships to different mints, some they trust more, some they trust less. So the ones that they trust more complexities, it's very intricate, to work through that. but I think it helps if, if you're trying to project a wallet that does everything, then you need to kind of show everything, right? If you have a very specific one, then you can figure out which ones you wanna hide and automate. It's just like Moon decided they have really, they wanna have these, this offline backup, they wanna have, you know, they wanna have everything unchanged, so they moved everything there. Phoenix maybe does the opposite, right? They have clear directions in their product Products, and that allows them to hide, hide certain things. But yeah, we have m-a lot more of that coming up with eCash with VMARC. Oh, we have, we have a lot of work to do there. I'm excited also to, to dig into that one." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:23", "start": 2603.13, "text": "Yeah. One other question I have is, How do you deal with competing standards, right? Because this is another one, right? Like whether it's seed backup standards or different, you know, different techniques, different technologies, how, how do we deal with that from a design perspective?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "43:41", "start": 2620.86, "text": "I, I think we have to solve that as a community. I mean, as, as a single designer, you know, you, you ca-- you can chip in, you can put your best forward, you can, and I, I think So h-here's a, here's another thing that I think about these, these four time horizons. There's like the dreaming blue sky in the future, hyperbitcoinization, whatever. Then there's kind of the far future where we have, let's say, covenants and RBitVM. We don't, like, it's something's gonna happen, it sounds very promising, we don't quite know how it's gonna work out, but we can kind of design scenarios, we can make prototypes, we think about the use cases, we kind of figure things out. Then we have the It's kind of alpha, no wallet really supports it, but we want that to happen. We can design, we can figure out best practices, we can figure out how we want this to work on an ecosystem level. So, and then we kind of have the right now, like the problems that projects have right now, that wallets have right now, that just needs to be fixed. So I think if we can, if we can be forward looking with our design work, then I think we can help resolve some of these standard issues. I mean, you have the Bib forty seven that's being blue wallet's gonna implement Bib forty seven, but you also have silent payments happening right now, that's, you know, one of these potential, conflicts there, trying to do the same thing slightly differently. So that one, I think it's a little bit too late, maybe. I don't know about that one. I think the market kind of has to sort that out. I do think it helps, if there are champions for certain standards that go around, convince everyone, have really a great website that explains it all, they go around, they, they campaign for it, have those conversations, get those doubts out of the way, or maybe adjust the protocol and, and come back and make improvements or so. But yeah, as, as designers, I think we're-- if you have two competing standards right now, we're kind of in the middle of, of all of this. We can, we can help lay out different scenarios, and then just, I think-- but I think the hive minds, the builder community together needs to find a way forward. yeah, I guess covenants, right? We'll see. That's kind of one of these, stalemates there. We're curi-- I'm curious to see how that one pans out." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:54", "start": 2754.38, "text": "Just, anything to add there?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "45:56", "start": 2756.2, "text": "Yeah, yeah, just to tail end off what Christoph says as well is, I think it's fun, you know, we were having this conversation 'cause we, we, we work very closely together, so every now and then we have a call, and, and during this call, I said it's fun to have all these sort of cool technologies, which I use the word for the standards. I said it's fun to have all of these cool technologies that we have access to, and that's fun and cool, but the bottom line is, is which technology is specifically solving a very specific problem for one person? That's what I'm interested in. Like, if that cool technology is solving that problem for that one person, then it should be used there. And the only person who can give you that answer is the user themselves, by actually speaking to people. you know, I'm a big advocate for you. Research. So actually speaking to people and asking them and doing a little bit of fact finding before deciding which technology is suitable to them, instead of the other approach which is, \"We have access to this cool technology, let's just build cool things and put it in front of people and think people are gonna use it.\" But it's very much about, ask yourself the question What problem is your cool technology solving in people's lives? Because people use things because it solves problems in their life." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:14", "start": 2833.77, "text": "Yeah, right. I, and I totally, I totally get what you're saying because, there are times where, I see this in online discussion, where people just kinda have this bright shiny thing syndrome and they sort of say, \"Oh, look, look at this cool thing I can build,\" but it hasn't been validated in terms of what the actual user really, actually wants. And so then sometimes you get this disconnect. connect between what the builders and developers are talking about and what actual real world users are using. Now, of course, to be fair, there is the infamous, and I'm sure you've heard this quote a million times, the kind of, what's it, the Henry Ford, you know, if I asked what the customers wanted, I would have given them a faster horse, and therefore that's why sometimes, let's say, a strong willed- Builder, entrepreneur, developer just has to come out and make it and put it out there. but then there's kind of the counterpoint of sometimes people just build things and it doesn't actually get used. So I guess that's the, the-- Yeah. That's the dichotomy there, right?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "48:09", "start": 2888.56, "text": "The Bitcoin was also not really-- It's, it's how-- I mean, my impression was that at the time a lot of the cypherpunks they were like, \"Oh, no, not another attempt of it. It's not gonna work out anyways, right?\" So even the, So s-sometimes technology is also like this fragile little plant that kind of has to grow a-and, you know, find its way in the world and even be protected. It sounds like Satoshi was very protective, like, \"Don't hoard too much, you know, be careful with the network and whatnot.\" So I-think you need just a lot of different experimentation and sometimes it's really surprising. I try to keep a very open mind, about, because sometimes these things really come out of an angle that, that you just didn't, you just didn't expect. And, Use it and the dynamics that come out from that are really, impossible to, to predict." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:01", "start": 2941.47, "text": "I see. Yeah. let's talk a little bit about the Bitcoin research. You, you were touching on this more around the, UX research, asking the user what they want, asking them how they're using it. So I can just see from the website, bitcoinresearch dot x y z, you've got there some questions there, things like, are we building the right thing? how do we set up a long-term research process? How do we get buy-in from the What do we do with user feedback, right? Because maybe it just kind of, they're getting feedback, but actually it's just going into some mailbox that nobody reads and we're not using it. So can you just, talk to us a little bit about Bitcoin research, and, you know, what are people missing there? What, what, what are some common mistakes on the Bitcoin research front?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "49:39", "start": 2979.08, "text": "Keep it, I'm gonna keep it as simple as possible. I've been working in the space as an evangelist for research for a while now, connecting with so many different- Open source projects and just, just do it, you know? I mean, just start somewhere, start small, even if it's going to be a five minute conversation with a potential user before you're about to kick off your project, that five minutes will, will, will make such a big difference In, in not only giving you a little bit of data to shape the direction of your project, you know, I think most people have a misconception that research is something that takes super long or they need to stop their whole project for three months, and that is a misconception because we can do things as we'd like to do things, you know? You can communicate with a project that you're with, be very open and honest. Do you wanna spend an hour on research? Sure, then we'll spend an hour. Like, do you wanna spend two months on it? Sure, we'll spend two months. but I think the biggest thing for me is for builders of their wallets to understand the jobs to be done, so like the jobs that their application needs to do. To serve that problem of that one person, that user, understand the jobs that your application needs to do to serve your user, to serve that one person who you're looking to serve. And You know, we built the UX research toolkit, and I say we because Christoph helped to build it, Art helped to build it, Jan helped to build it, Jacob also helped to build it. It was built by the community, that website, it wasn't built by a single person. And The minds that went into building that, they each person worked in a, in a very different sort of market, and they thought, \"What UX research processes and methodologies have helped us to understand our users?\" So the decisions made in the toolkit was made by a lot of people, and it was intentionally kept very simple for a reason is that we just wanted people to use it, just, just, just go in there, do a little bit of research, and just, you know Understand your users." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:43", "start": 3103.22, "text": "Yeah. One other point here, which I'm sure a lot of listeners will be thinking and considering, and I'm sure you've thought about this, is, obviously- A lot of Bitcoiners, though not everyone, tend to be privacy and security focused, right? And so sometimes, and I'm sure you know where I'm going with this, right? Some projects almost, like to say, \"We don't even know how many people are using our software,\" and therefore that makes it difficult because they don't wanna put in tracking software or trackers into their applications. And so then how do you balance that with actually having someone who you can reach out to for research purposes to make sure you're actually getting a good sample, of users of your- App or product." }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "52:22", "start": 3142.17, "text": "This is, I love those questions, Steve. This is such a good question. So when I entered into the Bitcoin space and I, I learned like a few years ago, I was like, \"There's no tracking here? Like, what? \" I, my brain had to do a double take. I was like, \"But how are you collecting data? How are you doing things? \" No, we don't do that. Okay. Well, there's a go-around, you know? There always has to be Ways to get around this. So qualitative research, meaning actually having calls with the users of the application that you're building, is something that helps to collect information. So, I, it, this is such a sticky topic because even, you know, getting on that call with someone, you're not going to test out their Bitcoin wallet with them, of course not, because that's their Bitcoin wallet. So you would be testing out a, you know, a pre-built wallet or a wallet that you would ask them to log into that already is, is being used for testing purposes or a prototype? in that way you're protecting their privacy because you're not testing it on their wallet themselves, and then you're also collecting information. You only need to have five thirty-minute conversations, and that will reveal most of the biggest friction points in your application. It's literally that simple. you know, you can go down all the complex, you're signing with me." }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "53:47", "start": 3226.52, "text": "it's, it's that simple. Just five thirty minute conversations will reveal the biggest friction points in your, in your application that you're building. It's, it's that simple. And then something else that I'm now delving into as a UX researcher is processing user data and processing user data and making it publicly available, because that's something that we're very passionate about in the open source space, is making all of the data publicly available. So something that I'm very sensitive to is removing any data in any information that I'm making publicly available to protect that person's privacy. very important." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:24", "start": 3263.67, "text": "Yeah, interesting. And because, this is something we see on, even on social media, there are different app developers who sort of flex, \"Oh, see, look, we have no trackers,\" and they might even use that as a competitive point to sort of say, \"Oh, look, my competitor, he's tracking you, I won't track you, come to me,\" etcetera. And so, you know, that's just a normal, obviously, different projects will try to compete, obviously, to, you know, get, get users, and, you know, But, I guess that's a dynamic that's maybe a little more unique to the, let's say, Bitcoin and privacy-focused online, people. so let's talk a little bit about You know, the process of somebody reaching out, right? Let's say somebody's listening now, they are a, a builder, a developer, or they are an entrepreneur, and they're curious about how they can get involved. What are the main ways for them to reach out or find out more? what's the process look like?" }, { "speaker": "mogashni_naidoo", "time": "55:17", "start": 3317.03, "text": "I mean, some, someone who's a builder who, who's around, they can simply hop into Discord and say hi and just share what they're talking about. The best things just start with an initial conversation, sharing a little bit about what you're doing, why you're doing it, maybe share some links. if you already, if you're like, if you have a certain design problem, you can say, you can contact Mo or I or even in Discord, so just say, \"I'd like to have a design review.\" We have a design review channel, and then we'll just About you, you can ex-share your project, you can talk about it. If you're looking for a designer, we also have a newsletters where we just put in opportunities, and we have an opportunities channel, we also try to, tweet about it and post it on Noster account, just to give a little bit visibility to, to projects and what they're kind of looking for at the moment. but yeah, it's, it's as simple as just, starting a conversation. And if someone's looking to contribute, we have this join page on the website, slash join, And that's, we just redid that one to turn it into like this, adventure, like this series of milestones. So if you're brand new to the space, there's some tips for what you can do, introduce yourself. If you're super advanced, you know, you-- it has information about how to join and contribute to design projects. So I think that page should also be, hopefully, pretty good, and if it's not good, let us know, then we can, improve it together." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:41", "start": 3400.56, "text": "Fantastic. Okay, Mo, any, any, final comment from yourself?" }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "56:45", "start": 3404.61, "text": "And also an open, open invitation to anyone listening to this, you know, you know, this is an invitation to help us build the ecosystem. And increase the amount of designers working in the, in the Bitcoin space. So, you know, the Bitcoin Design Foundation is there as a facilitator. So, one of the things that we do is we support new designers, we encourage new designers to research and work on new technology in the space. So that would be Bitcoin, let me just look at the website quickly, Bitcoin Design Foundation dot org. And another, one of the other things that I'd like to share is an open invitation for people to sponsor the Bitcoin Coin Design Foundation, because with your sponsorship, we can help bring more good design into the ecosystem. So by helping the foundation, we get to help more people and fund more people in the space, and we really want to see more of that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:38", "start": 3457.9, "text": "Great, well, I'll put the links in the show notes, but yeah, as you said, bitcoin design foundation dot org and bitcoin dot design are the two main links, Christoph and Mo, thank you for joining me today." }, { "speaker": "christoph_ono", "time": "57:51", "start": 3471.01, "text": "Thank you for having us, yes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:53", "start": 3472.81, "text": "Finally, I hope you enjoyed that show, maybe something a little bit different, but hopefully something valuable for you. If you found the show interesting, make sure to share it out there, press like, and, let people know about it. You can find me at stephanolivera dot com. Thanks and And I'll see you in the Citadel." } ] }