{ "episodeId": "SLP564", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "andrew_henderson": { "name": "Andrew Henderson", "role": "guest", "tag": "ANDREW" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.42, "text": "Hi and welcome to Stephan Livera podcast, a show brought to you by Swann dot com. Today I'm speaking with Andrew Henderson, the founder of Nomad Capitalist, and he's famous for saying \"Go where you're treated best.\" So we're talking about that today, and we're talking about a little bit of his story of renouncing his United States citizenship, as well as the opportunities available around the world, and I try to help contextualize some of this for Bitcoiners and ask them the questions that Bitcoiners would want to know about, and we also talk about Nomad Capitalist live coming up in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia later this year. So I think there's a lot of interesting insight here because Andrew has a slightly different perspective compared to some Bitcoiners who might have more of a \"quote-unquote\" stay and fight mindset. So we talk about that in this episode, and I'm sure you'll enjoy the discussion." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00", "start": 60.21, "text": "Andrew, welcome back to the show. Oh, it's always good to be with you. So Andrew, as, you're, you're joining me as the, the founder of Nomad Capitalist, and we have the Nomad Capitalist Live event coming up, that's in late September in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. So we're gonna ta- chal- chat a little bit about that, what people can expect from Nomad Capitalist Live, as well as a little bit about you and, a little bit of your story, a little bit of your journey, in terms of how you got to where" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:32", "start": 91.89, "text": "Businessman and entrepreneur, but then you found that actually going overseas, you, you got all these benefits, and you, you took this step that maybe some people would say is quite a, a drastic one of actually renouncing your US citizenship, in favor of being a nomad capitalist. So, let's, let's jump into a little, into a little bit of that, and, you know, I think that's something we haven't explored as much on this podcast in terms of your story, you know, how you got to that stage of being an entrepreneur who You know, you wanted out. Let's talk a little bit about that. Why did you wanna get out?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "02:07", "start": 127.28, "text": "Well, yeah, the nomadic capitalist lifestyles, you have multiple passports, you have multiple residence permits, you don't rely on just one. I think that's especially true if you're from a country like the United States, where you're not really a citizen, you're a number. I've been treated far better in other countries, and that was my working thesis, and obviously not every part of the thesis that I had back in the mid-2000s came" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "02:32", "start": 151.72, "text": "Are very brusque, for example, and sometimes that can be difficult, so I didn't factor things like that in. But what I was correct on is, during COVID, when you wanted to renew your US passport, and I'm sure some other Western passports, and they gave you the stink eye, and it took as much as a year, and I've seen that with my own eyes, I was renewing a passport in a day. I'd walk in And you'd do it in a day. Maybe you had to make an appointment rather than just walk in before, but you were able to come in during COVID and get your new passport in a day. They weren't trying to hold you back. And so that working thesis that I've had for close to twenty years is something I played out, where I decided a number of years ago to leave the United States to experience more, personal freedom more money, more wealth, and a better lifestyle. And so I was young enough at the time, I was single at the time, the lifestyle was, you know, meeting people who were more interested in people like me. I think if you're in the Bitcoin community You know, there's, there's certainly been times when you felt like, \"Where do I meet like-minded people? Obviously, our event is one of them, but, you know, the dating pool, it's harder, if you want someone who, who shares those values.\" I felt, \"Hey, there's people in other countries that actually do share those values in a greater percentage, where they actually value work and risk and that kind of thing.\" so the lifestyle was there. Obviously, I was able to, particularly as an entrepreneur from the US, lower my taxes by being overseas. It cost less, which back then was more meaningful to me to live overseas, and I still just got, kind of get a kick of the fact that why waste money on stuff, You know, and, and I have more personal freedom, and that's hard to explain, you just have to feel it. And I was talking to Michelle Makauri the other day, and she said, \"You go to Malaysia, do they have as many rights enshrined in the constitution?\" I said, \"No, but unlike the US, I think they follow their constitution. plus, they just kind of don't-- they're just chill.\" Which the US police and the US government isn't chill, they bother you, you're not allowed to make a mistake. I mean, just, I felt more freedom, I had more wealth, I had a better lifestyle, that's what would have made me, made me move. But then ultimately, I decided, you know, why do I need to carry a US passport? if, if I don't wanna live in the United States, if my thesis is correct, if these places are better." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:45", "start": 284.66, "text": "Right. And, as you have mentioned, there, there are all these benefits, right, from a business perspective, a tax perspective, a lifestyle, all of these other elements, and as you mentioned, the, the freedom aspect of it, that maybe what's explicitly written isn't necessarily What a life is like on the ground. Yeah. I think the other big question a lot of Bitcoiners will have is, \"Wow, renouncing US citizenship, that must have been a big price, right? Was paying the exit tax worth it?\" Do you have any comments on that?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "05:17", "start": 316.69, "text": "Right, so I did ultimately renounce my citizenship at the end of 2017. You know, why do some things cost so much? 'Cause they're worth it. listen, here's my advice. If you believe in yourself and I haven't always entirely believed in myself. It's something that since I've renounced and, and in the more recent years, I've, I've seen more of my talents. And so I, I can't say that I was the ultimate chequeter for myself back then. but I knew enough to say, \"Hey, I'm, you know, I'm just kind of the, the blindfolded entrepreneur who has an optimism, things are gonna get better.\" And so, listen, where you're at now is as good as it's gonna get. Now, if you're in Bitcoin and you have Bitcoin at seventy thousand and you think Bitcoin could dip to fifty thousand, you could always go in and renounce it fifty thousand, and as you explained, there's an exit tax. Not only does the United States have this But keep the passport habit. So if you leave Australia, for example, you're not giving up your Australian citizenship, but you are ending your Australian tax residence, and they may apply an exit tax to you on basically whatever you've earned while you're there. The only difference with the US is if you're earning assets overseas while a US citizen, that still counts, they still lump that in the system with this citizenship-based taxation. But, you know, if you're optimistic And I think you have to pick a one perspective and, and, and roll with it, right? I think a lot of people try and, both in the Bitcoin and everything else, they try and have it both ways. Yes, I'm optimistic, but I'll pay later. Well, if it's gonna be higher, why would you pay later? If Bitcoin's going to one hundred and forty thousand dollars, and you think one day you're gonna say, \"This is ridiculous, why am I paying millions of dollars in taxes?\" Would you rather pay now or potentially, you know, twelve to fifteen months from now, right? Renounce now, pay next year. Would you rather pay now at a lower rate or would you rather pay in the future? And I think what I've learned over the years is that, you know, it's worth shaving off a few percentage points to have an insurance policy. I shaved a few percentage points off future growth. Now, I don't hold a hundred percent Bitcoin, so I, you know, it's, some of my money was just sitting around waiting to be deployed into a business But I'm a big fan of taking some money and saying, in order to protect the rest of the money, this money needs to be lit on fire. And if you look at where I was when I renounced, and if you look at where I was now, the difference is marked. And You know, hindsight's twenty-twenty, but I kind of predicted in the future, listen, I'm gonna look back and say I'm glad I did that, because there were so many things that I didn't know would happen in the US, but I said, \"You know, it's just getting bad enough, I'm seeing enough signs that I think I'll keep seeing more and more and more and more and bigger signs. So I've always wanted to do this, let's just get it done. I trust in myself, I trust that I'll be better.\" I trust that I don't need this passport to survive, and that was the thinking. everything we're doing has a cost, right? And I think that maybe some of us, I was an entrepreneur and I am an entrepreneur, and I, I've seen it as, I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I don't see it as risky. Maybe people involved, invested in Bitcoin, they didn't see it as risky, they just thought, \"This is what, this is, this is the plan.\" But those things do have inherent risk. You know, buying Bitcoin when I first got mine in twenty fourteen, that had risk. There was risk back then. It worked out very well, but there was a risk. Same thing with starting a business. And if you don't see it that way, then you're probably not gonna entirely understand kind of this long term, you know, conversation where you think that you didn't take any risk to buy Bitcoin. And therefore, everything else is just gonna work itself out. the government risks are getting worse and worse and worse, and that's why I said I wanted to get out. And whatever it's gonna cost me, it cost me. It actually turned out to be a very good time for me to get out, actually. But that's something everyone-- and if you have, you know, if you're under two million dollars in the US and you think that things could get much bigger, you know, that's the, that's the time you wanna look at it. That's the, that's the marker." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:16", "start": 555.92, "text": "And so for some people, they might have the criticism or the concern of, \"Hey, why not stay and fight?\" Right? And I'm sure you, I'm sure you've talked about this many times, but if you were to answer that question for, you know, for listeners, \"Why not stay" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "09:32", "start": 571.95, "text": "what, fight the US government, fight the Australian government? I mean, if let's just take where I'm from, the US, I think 160 million people will vote for president this year? there's other adults who don't vote, who influence policy by their actions. what are you fighting? I think one of the things that we have to realize is how unique we are people, and that should be a good thing, quite frankly. And again, people wanna have it both ways. They wanna have that kind of, \"Hey, I know what's going on in the world, I'm smarter than the average person,\" but then they also wanna think that the average person agrees with them. In countries like Canada, the majority of people are like, \"Yeah, bring on higher taxes, yeah, bring on socialism, give us more.\" And they're like, \"No, no, no, no, no, people aren't like...\" \"No, no, no, you're unique, right?\" Like, I remember using the internet in nineteen ninety four, and like almost no one was on the internet on Prodigy, and my dad's like, \"This is pretty libertarian today, but it won't be in the future, 'cause most people aren't libertarians, just that the libert very small percentage of people like us, and by the way, that's what makes you successful. If, if it was so common to just take risks and do intelligent things, it'd be a lot harder to get ahead and so what are you gonna fight? You're gonna fight the people who, where the momentum is going the wrong direction. Imagine a hundred and sixty million voters and the momentum's going the wrong direction. I'm a big momentum guy, right? I had a company of Fifty people at one point, nomad capitalists, and I had too many negative, difficult people who were very committed to keeping some of the systems and data processes where they were, because they felt if it got better, they wouldn't survive. And that momentum, and that direction was not-- the sales momentum was good, customer momentum was good, but that momentum was not good. It's a lot easier to turn fifty people around by getting rid of ten of them, and now we're up to like eighty-two. And now we fixed the momentum problem. A lot easier to do that than to turn around a hundred and sixty million people. And by the way, you can't fire your fellow citizens, right? They're there. they're not gonna, as Bill Maher says, self-deport. so I just think the momentum is going the wrong direction, and every year you see more and more anti-capitalist stuff from countries in the West. You see more and more countries outside of the West be like, \"Alright, listen, we wanna get rich.\" so this seems like the way to do it. Let's do more capitalism, let's make it more open. Sure, let's have some rules, but let's be more open by and large. I just think that Western countries, I, I used to call them the Paris Hilton of countries. I guess now she's, has some businesses, but back when Paris Hilton was an heiress, Paris Hilton had no idea how Paris Hilton was wealthy. And when you, when you are like that, it's easy to make dumb decisions, and that's what I think that a lot of these Western countries And so what are you gonna fix? That's cultural. Like, y-you, you know, you just don't change people's minds like that, you know? they have ideas, they have prejudices, and now thanks to nasty, evil, rich guys like me, I don't hire anybody in the US, so that's eighty-two jobs from a guy born in the US where the jobs aren't in the US, and that's my tiny, teeny, teeny little contribution to the fact of Their wages aren't growing fast enough because people are hiring other places and there's competition now, and that's the cult, like, how are you gonna fight that? They're angry about that, and maybe they should be. but, you know, the gravy train is over. How do you stop that momentum?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:17", "start": 796.52, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. The lead sponsor of this show is Swan Bitcoin. Over at Swan Bitcoin or using the Swan Bitcoin app, you can sign up and buy Bitcoin in just a few minutes. The team has been working really hard to improve the experience and it's now really, really slick in terms of sign-up experience. So make sure you go to your Play Store or your Apple App Store and download Swan Bitcoin app, and you can- You can sign up really quickly there. So this also makes it really easy for you to recommend Swan Bitcoin to your family and friends, because you can be standing right there with them, and they can literally just click through in just a few minutes and be going from zero to Bitcoin in just a few minutes. Also, a big new plus is that there is now zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys. So this is a great way to help people get onboarded, and it's not just for new customers, it's also for existing Swan customers. You will get zero fees from Swan on your next ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys. So just a reminder, send your friends and family to the app store and tell them to search \"Swan Bitcoin\" and get the app and sign up to start stacking Bitcoin over at Swan Bitcoin. This show also brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I use it all the time when I want to keep track of what's happening in Bitcoin's mempool. The team are always rolling out new innovations and new ways to visualize things, so I really appreciate that, and I can use mempool dot space to search Bitcoin transactions by searching the transaction identifier or keep an eye on what's going on in the mempool, as well as search the Lightning Network or also keep an eye on what's going on in the world of Bitcoin. point mining. Mempool dot space are also launching an accelerator, for so, so for those of you who wanna sign up for that, go to mempool dot space slash accelerator. And now, back to the show. Perhaps people could say, \"Look, Andrew, yes, you're right that, taxes are lower overseas. Maybe there's other lifestyle and other, you know, benefits that you can get overseas. But actually, when it comes to investing or maybe hiring the very high level employees, you need to be in the US, right? Like maybe if you need to raise capital or get funding You know, you've gotta be in New York or San Francisco or LA or one of these places because that's just where, you know, the momentum is for that particular-- for certain industries. What would you say to that idea that, you know, you need to be in America for business and investing reasons?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "15:42", "start": 941.53, "text": "Well, number one, I've never raised money for any of my companies. I mean, I, I wanted to be in business to own what I do, and every once in a while, I've thought, you know, should I sell a part of it or some, some M&A firm will call, \"Can we buy it?\" or whatever. and then every time you do that, you know, the M&A firm wants to buy your company, they want you to hang around and work for some soulless banker for three years, and I never really seriously considered it because that's not why I started this. I started to get financial freedom. Now that I have the level of financial freedom that I wanted, I wanna create that for other people, and I wanna have an impact. I don't see how raising money helps me do that. So I'm not saying there aren't entrepreneurs who want that, and yes, those have been probably the hardest clients we've ever had to serve, are people who, you know, they like they're raising money in the valley, and they're supposed to have the Delaware C-Corp, and the guys aren't open to anything else And that's hard. It's just, hey, stay and pay. And sometimes we've gotten calls back, you know, they wake up, but, but now the company's worth a lot and they can't even afford to renounce. Hey, I'll get the investors out, I can raise other money, I can get investors who don't care. You can't even renounce. so listen, obviously, you know, three hundred and thirty million people live in the US, twenty some million people live in Australia, I mean, people live in these Western countries. And, and listen, to your point, yeah, I opened up not an office, but a company in Ireland to employ a handful of people, 'cause I felt it was the most friendly, all across the board of the Western countries that had good English-speaking high-level talent, particularly in sales and marketing. And so we have a handful of people in Ireland who do a great job. And so I think that's a good equivalent to the US. And, you know, what's a lot more charming to listen to an Irish person, they're a lot more pleasant to talk to. just met one of the guys from the Bitcoin community here, and just the, the difference, like he's a, he's a chill, happy guy, but he's still super libertarian and super pro Bitcoin. And so I think that that vibe to do business around the world is actually better than the US because there's a little bit less isolation in a country like Ireland, where they have a history of immigration and that, you know They understand kind of like what's happening, they built the country up since the '80s to be one of the wealthiest in the world. So, you know, Western countries for some role, sure, but that's still, you know- Twelve or fifteen percent of our, of our workforce, is in a place like Ireland. So I, I just think, listen, we can, we can be emotional about the US, and we can find all the reasons that sound good. There's a lot of Silicon Valleys all around the world. And you know what I learned when I lived-- I mean, the event this year is in Kuala Lumpur again. I've lived there for eleven years. Isn't the number one top tier place in the world? No, and that's why I like it. I get to go, people come I'm not part of some ecosystem where I'm defined by other people. I have friends who live in Bangkok who aren't sleeping with twenty new women a month. I have friends in Bangkok who are married. But, you know, I mean, there's a certain vibe in some of the commu-communities in some of these places that I don't wanna be a sign, so I kinda wanna be in the secondary place. So I can chart my own course, which I think is what entrepreneurship and Bitcoin and personal freedom are all about, is charting your own course. I, I don't, I mean, you can do that in the US, but I, I just-- the juice isn't worth the squeeze, first of all, and I just think there's alternatives elsewhere." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:03", "start": 1142.59, "text": "And so you bring up, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. So let's talk a little bit about the event. I, I'm gonna be there, I'm looking forward to it, in late September, I think the exact dates are 25th to the 28th of September, just for people, yes, who are interested. let's talk a little bit about that because this is something I've, I've enjoyed visiting, Kuala Lumpur. I've been, twice before, my wife and I had a great time there," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:32", "start": 1172.05, "text": "Malaysia. So, you know, we talk about how, you know, there are these big Western countries, and some of them are sort of resting on their laurels, and they are to some extent overcharging, you know, in terms of what you pay and what you get, whereas when you go to places like Malaysia, you, you can actually get pretty good value in terms of what you're, what you're paying for and what you're getting. I know this is something you've spoken about as well, even from a medical perspective in, in Malaysia as" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:02", "start": 1202.05, "text": "You know, what, what sorts of things are you getting better value on?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "20:07", "start": 1206.95, "text": "And people always ask me, \"What are your favorite places?\" And my ethos here is there is no best, right? What's best for me, what's best for you, it's different. You're, you're in Dubai, and I respect you have your reasons for that, I have my reasons for being elsewhere, but what I'll say is, look at what I've done. I've, you know, been in Kuala Lumpur part time, basically every year for eleven years. I think it's the best value city in the world. is it the best city in the world? Again, I don't know, but I think for what you get it's the best. Number one, you mentioned healthcare. I go to Prince Court, there's a few other facilities, I've tried one or two others of them, I think Prince Court's the best. I'm asking people, hey, before you come to the event, if you wanna go, you know, Monday, the event starts Wednesday, if you wanna come Monday, Prince Court health screening, it's like two hundred dollars and they do a full checkup. They've got under forty, over forty, over fifty, men, women, like different checkups, they rush you" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "21:05", "start": 1265.32, "text": "There is a certain egalitarian nature in that, like, women have pretty equal rights in terms of, like, working. It's not some repressive society. And yet, when you pay, you're the customer. I come to the West, and it's like, they won't even pour milk in the coffee for you. It's like, hey, would you mix that gin and tonic for me? It's like, hey, you know, it's like, get carried away. And so you're rushed to the front of the queue, they really take care of you, like you are the customer there, and they're just such nice people. you know, food, everything, I mean, just everything's involved. Housing, It was one of my more difficult renovations, perhaps 'cause it was during COVID, in my, in my permanent home. but the value, I mean, you could buy For five hundred and fifty grand, what I have, a thirty-five hundred square foot, like, top floor apartment, like in a beautiful building, top services, I think it cost me five grand a year to pay for the building, and that keeps the lights on, all the utilities on, when I'm not there. So five grand, lock and go, and when I'm not there, guys are looking out for me, just a really top crew. So you've got the niceness of people helping you out. there was some water pipe, they turned it off, and now I've got Five grand, that's property tax, that's dues, that's utilities, just kind of the baseline to have a thirty-five hundred square foot, you know, place that was very nicely renovated. What would you pay for that in some Western city? People were saying three, four, five x is that gonna appreciate a lot? No, but guess what? Take the other three, four, five X and put it in whatever asset you want, in your case, it's Bitcoin, and, you know, enjoy that, right? and by the way It'd be hard to get a loan without a local job. I don't have debt, I don't want debt. Why? I wanna answer to some banker, I wanna a job every month to make sure my bills are paid. Are you kidding me? That's what I worked hard to get away from, was owing anybody or having to listen to anybody, outside of the people I chose to work with, like customers. and good employees. So, I mean, food is affordable, alcohol's a bit more expensive, but it's readily available. I guess some pork products are a little bit more expensive, but are available." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "23:21", "start": 1401.36, "text": "I, I, I-- By the way, I, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm traveling now. two hundred bucks for an oceanfront, room With, all you can drink mini bar, and a free happy hour, and a free breakfast, and, special pool, and you're, let's say you're like right on it, like How, how do you beat that? That's in Penang, at the Eastern and Oriental Hotel. I love going up there, but like, just that kinda stuff. And could I afford to pay a thousand dollars? Yeah, I was in London recently, I paid a thousand dollars a night. There was no ocean view. Of course. There was no free minibar. it's just like, \"Hey, here's your room. What do you want?\" It's just like, \"Yeah, I want more than this for a thousand dollars.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:07", "start": 1446.75, "text": "Yeah, I mean, a, a lot of, yeah, I have to, yeah, I have to echo a lot of those points that really- Elsewhere around the world, you can get really great value. One other point I would mention, this is something that might be interesting for listeners as well, is depending where you are, there might be more accessibility of other kinds of services. So as an example, having like a housemaid or a nanny to help you, right? Whereas in the West, you pretty much have to be, you know, very wealthy to afford that. But in, let's say, Asia, the Middle East, South America, it's actually maybe a bit more common that you, you know, that families might pay On the home, and so that's something that you might find outside of the typical, let's say, Western world, countries." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "24:49", "start": 1489.35, "text": "Absolutely. I mean, I was just in Colombia for a couple weeks. I mean, that's The maid becomes part of the family after like so many years. so yeah, you can do that. And by the way, that's one thing I, I, I really consider doing. I'm spending a little bit more time in the West now. This is a consideration, by the way, that I, I look at, if you look at the Western countries, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, how do you bring a maid? How do you bring someone in? Now, you can hire people there locally, but it's expensive. One of the reasons I liked, you know, studying at the company in Ireland was, they're very open about bringing in foreigners. Now, that's a complaint people have right now. I happen to think immigration, if people are talented or bring wealth to add to the country, is a good thing, no matter where they're from. obviously, you know, hooligans are not a good thing, but, you know, I-- you know, you could bring people in if you have an Irish company and you have people who are very talented and they don't wanna live in Pakistan, for example, you can get them a residence permit and they can, can live there. that's a positive thing that a place like the US makes it very, very difficult to do. and so right there, that's an example of why like a small country versus a big country. But to your point on, on the staff" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "26:04", "start": 1564.24, "text": "you just have the full time staff. You can do that anywhere, and I'm setting that up anywhere, but, if you're gonna live in one place full time, incredibly affordable to do that. And, and they even give you like, Malaysia gives you a, a domestic helper, you can add them onto your own residence permit, you can bring someone in. So, I mean, to me, like, that's a culture that speaks highly of the country, whereas the US does the opposite." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:32", "start": 1592.12, "text": "Yeah. and speaking of the event, let's chat a little bit about, who's coming and what the focus is for this year, because, you know, as I understand, you're trying to shift and evolve the focus of the event also to, also chat a bit more about the, the capitalism side of it also, not just the nomad side of it." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "26:50", "start": 1610.21, "text": "I, I got tired, I, I've always kind of been tired of the doom and gloom. it's to a certain extent where people are, and you go there a little bit You know, I, I've been thinking about this stuff, it'll be twenty years next year, since I started researching frontier markets and thinking, \"Wow, what's going on in Cambodia? That's pretty interesting.\" And I've been living for a good chunk of that overseas. My life, I'm not the world's happiest person, probably never will be, but my life is much better outside of the United States, you can feel it, and I wanna show people that. So the theme of the event is love, and you might think, \"Well, that's ridiculous. We're talking about lowering your taxes, we're talking about getting second passports.\" But I think people wanna be heard, and I wanna address head on the fact that We all wanna go someplace where we feel heard, where we feel connected, where we feel like we are not just tolerated, but appreciated and welcomed. And where are those places? Not that we sit around and sing kumbaya, but where do we go where we make sure that we're in the best state we can be personally? Because the impact on me, and if you look at since I renounced, and the dramatic increase in my wealth, I think it comes from a sense of comfort above anything else. that's why I buy properties around the world, I like living in them, I have a sense of comfort. We're doing this interview today sans microphone because I'm in a, I'm, I'm, I'm traveling through and something was packed, and that's what I'm fighting against, and I'm doing it one more time to not be, you know, to have everything set up so it's comfortable. So we're gonna talk about how you create that comfortable offshore lifestyle, not just where you lower your taxes, not just where you get second passports, but I also wanna talk about the opportunities. AirAsia CEO Tony Fernandez is coming. If you've been in Asia, you've probably flown on AirAsia. I try and avoid low cost airlines, but that's the one I would fly in if I had to. And, he turned like twenty-six cents into billions of dollars, and people said there's no opportunities outside of the United States. You know, Nigel Farage is coming, talking about Brexit. Say, Finamoo is coming, talking about Bitcoin. Danielle D. Martino, Booth, coming and talking about her experiences with the Fed, what's happening in the economy. a long, long list of folks, emerging markets investors, other people in the Bitcoin space. as well as our entire, you know, senior team, we're gonna share what we really learned by helping people. There's been a lot of changes this year with golden visas, citizenship by investment, prices are gonna pretty much double, which kind of like reflects back to why I've done some of this stuff earlier, why I gave up citizenship, why I got some of the passports. I think it's only gonna get harder as time goes on. So we're gonna cover all that. We're gonna talk about where you can go and feel comfortable, where are the real opportunities, show you that there are opportunities somewhere else. I feel more connected when I realize there's opportunities locally than just I'm living here. You may never in a place like Kuala Lumpur entirely settle into the local culture, although I know a guy who got pretty close. but if you know there's opportunities around you, I think that br-gives you a sense of connection which makes it more tolerable. than just being the expat who's gonna go home back to your high tax country in three years. And so that's what we're gonna be talking about, it's four days, and, it's gonna be a lot of fun. And, and you were there last year, I mean, we jammed it in. there's no sponsors, there's no, nobody with a booth, you know, shoving something in your face when you walk out the door. it's a premium ticket to have just knowledge Networking, community, everyone that I think is important to be curated for a nomad capitalist." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:26", "start": 1826.15, "text": "Yeah, and I can say, I definitely learned a lot about some of the different options that are out there because there's just, obviously it's a big world out there, right? There's, I don't know, two hundred jurisdictions or something, and there's so many of them that you might not have heard of or you might not know the options that are available in terms of citizenship or residence or setting up a business or hiring. And so it actually gives you a lot of ideas about what is are out there and I guess it's a, it's a very rapidly shifting space, right? Whether it's citizenship programs that are going up in price or maybe there's a new program available or maybe this program isn't no longer available, so it's sort of helping you keep up on that, While we're on that topic as well, do you want to just touch on a little bit of the, you know, the changing climate there around some of the different citizenship programs? As an example, people are saying some of the Caribbean, you know, the well-known Caribbean islands that offer these programs, they're going up in price soon. so that's an example." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "31:23", "start": 1883.15, "text": "I, I, I've been saying that for years, and you had kind of this golden era after the hurricanes where there was a little bit of, of, of competition. I mean, for years, Thinkitt and Evos was around at a higher price point than it's going to. Dominica had a lower quality passport, now their passport has taken a few hits. you know, which passport you should get depends on what other passports you have and what you plan on doing and where you plan on traveling and living and what have you. I've been seeing it for years, and people were like, \"Oh, you know, this guy just wants to sell you now.\" Okay, listen, people, people are-- This is a growth industry. People are eventually gonna come around to realizing this is what, you need. Now, there's citizenship by descent, and we help people do that. There's citizenship by other ways, but I think particularly if you're in the Bitcoin space, citizenship by investment, and particularly in the donation space, where you have- you lower your opportunity cost, right? So rather than going to Turkey and buying a bunch of real estate or Egypt and buying a bunch of real estate and getting a weak passport, you go and you get a decent passport, you make a donation, you're done, right? It's, it's taken a couple percentage points and lighting that money on fire to make sure the rest of the money is safe and sound inside the vault. That's how life works. I mean, here's what I tell people, and I tell this story many times now, I went to a dinner with a bank. Now, I know that sounds mis- they were very nice people, but I, it does sound a little weird. But I said, \"Okay, we work with banks.\" They invited me to a dinner in, in Kuala Lumpur, big bank, strong bank from Singapore. I asked the banker, I said, \"Confirm my theory. You don't want Americans, you want rich Indonesians, you want rich Thais, you want rich Pidhais, absolutely. We're seeing more of these in our business, people with a hundred million dollars and up.\" From Asia. Didn't go to the US, didn't go to the UK, built a business in Asia, hundred million dollars and up. That money is far easier to take in the bank, because fewer regulations, the country isn't lording a bunch of rules over what the bank, you know, can do or what investments they can offer to a more profitable customer, whereas the US, the SEC, all the compliance requirements and the cost of that, what they can sell you, what they can offer you, just not worth it. And so I think that people, particularly in the US, but they have this idea that like if they're not pushing demand, nobody is. Well, citizenship by investment was never driven by Western demand. I was talking about this ten, eleven years ago, and people laughed! And then, you know, I think when Bitcoin started to really peak, they, they took it more seriously, and then when COVID happened, it really gotten taken seriously, and the numbers started to go up from all around the West. But I was kind of like this lone wolf, like, you know, crying like, \"You need another citizenship in the West from twenty thirteen,\" and people were like, \"You're weird.\" now you're seeing it, and so now demand is maybe, you know, ten, fifteen percent in the aggregate from the West. It was always China, it's not Russia anymore 'cause the restrictions in many places, although Turkish real estate's gone crazy thanks to Russia, Georgia and other places. but, you know, there's this emerging wealth around the world, and it's those people from those emerging countries that want it, and I think that The lesson I'ma tell ya is, if you're sitting around, well, nobody I know here in Beverly Hills is like, \"That's not the target market.\" It's the guy in Vietnam with ten million dollars, or the guy in Thailand with a hundred million dollars, or the guy in Brazil who just sold the company for fifty million dollars. It's easy for those of us in the West to have egos and think that, like, \"Oh, nobody makes money in Brazil.\" Of course they do. And they're the ones who consume this, 'cause they fundamentally have what every Bitcoiner has, a distrust of their government. But if you live in the United States, and that's the soup you're, you're sitting in, you're sitting with a lot of people who very much trust their government Even if they say they don't, they still sit there, they still pay their taxes, they still fill out the forms, they still state the best place in the world. The guy in Brazil doesn't say that. And so he's the one driving this. And so with the regulations from the places like the EU pushing, some of these programs, as well as just, you know, demand, the prices were always gonna go up. I mean, Hong Kong close its program, I think it was back in 2015. It's back now with a fourfold price increase. Sometimes they overshoot it, Malaysia overshot it with this PVP program, kind of like this permanent residence program. sometimes they overshoot it and sometimes they pull it back. Turkey did that at a million dollars back in twenty seventeen, pulled it back to two fifty and then bumped it up. it's not gonna be that, that far away from a million dollars pretty soon. so I, I just think that there's a lot of demand that people aren't aware of because they're not living this life And by the way, you know, in Dubai, that's why a lot of these guys are all, you know, both some of the, the Johnny Come Latelys as well as kind of the legacy firms are all in Dubai, 'cause that's historically where a lot of demand has been, is among people. for the Arab world and the people who move there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:15", "start": 2174.91, "text": "Right, as you said, it's, it's a changing landscape, and you sort of have to keep your eye on what programs are becoming available or maybe some of them are becoming more expensive, but maybe at the same time there's new programs entering the market or maybe programs that are at a lower price point. I think last interview, you mentioned the Egypt, program as an example, but since then El Salvador is now offering a program. Now some would say, okay, it's quite a high price point there, one million dollar price tag, but, maybe some people would be interested in that because maybe they are interested in the very quick turnaround aspect, so maybe there'll be new programs to come over time as new countries start to rise up as well." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "37:01", "start": 2220.75, "text": "I mean, El Salvador is interesting. I, I've never put a lot of stock in El Salvador 'cause they're always talking about this stuff and I never see how it works. I mean, North Macedonia had a program, I guess, do they still have a program? If they do, nobody dares, but, I don't think anyone ever got citizenship through it. So, I mean, I, I've, I've seen poor follow-through and poor framework from El Salvador, and I've said that for a couple of years. I'd like them to do something, the price is ridiculous. I don't know why someone in Bitcoin who's concerned about opportunity cost Would spend a hun- a million dollars in a passport when you can spend two hundred thousand dollars in a passport. And, I mean, I was just, I was just in London and I used my Saint Lucia passport, and they asked me a couple questions about it last time, but this time it was, it was breezy. you know, generally speaking, they don't care. and the UK is maybe the one country that would care occasionally. If El Salvador starts to get the reputation, it's gonna be just the same. I mean, you know, maybe, you know, if, if Max, you know, if Max Keiser was just given an El Salvador passport, that's one thing, but if they're just gonna start selling it in some kind of formulaic way, I just don't understand why you would take the opportunity cost risk. Or, you know, of, of, of spending so much more. So I, you know, that's a passport, it's actually a good passport, I've talked about it, where from a travel perspective it's good, you've got a couple countries there in that Central America region that you have access to, at kind of a higher level, freedom to move around those. But generally the new product coming out is something like Egypt, and I think that the, the challenge people have, right, is, and I've been saying this from day one, what's the next Singapore? Well, you want the next Singapore because you want Singapore. Singapore didn't used to look like Singapore. Right? So you've got, like, now Singapore is like, \"Oh, you wanna make a passive investment to live here? It's tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. That's what it costs.\" Well, if you would have gone there ten years ago, it would have been a lot easier. Five years ago, a lot easier. How 'bout twenty five years ago? Please come on in, right? And so people want the \"Please come on in,\" but then they wanna look like Singapore And then Egypt is the one, okay, we'll roll the passport, it'll be a little bit cheaper than Turkey. Egypt shouldn't be most people's second passport, maybe a fourth or a fifth or a sixth. I think real estate there is extremely affordable, just got a report yesterday, I mean, still a thousand dollars a meter for decent quality stuff in very nice locations, that's cheap Very few places that still have that. so it's kind of an investment slash, you know, fourth passport kind of cool, like African Union play, you know, brig. Cool. Average Bitcoiners or average Americans second passport? No. But like, that's the new stuff that comes out. I don't, I don't dislike it. And by the way, maybe I would add Egypt as a sixth passport. It's cool. But People gonna be upset that, oh, there's always something new coming out. Yeah, that's what's new coming out, or it's El Salvador at a, at a ridiculous price. So I, I- There's only so many countries. I, I just go back to, I hate doing it 'cause I'm a very frugal person. You know, I hate calling a lawyer and spending a thousand dollars to get an opinion when I'm ninety-five percent sure I'm right. But at a certain point, you have too much to lose, and you have to burn a little bit of your money to be covered. I think El Salvador's too much burn, Egypt may not offer enough for the burn. I, I still think two hundred thousand dollars for the Caribbean is a good deal, but I think a lot of people are gonna be kicking themselves they didn't do it earlier 'cause they thought it's always gonna get cheaper." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:28", "start": 2427.97, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show is brought to you by CoinKite dot com, the leading Bitcoin security hardware maker, and they are known for a range of devices such as the Cold Card, and now recently they've got the Cold Card Q. So this is the new QR enabled hardware wallet, and so it's got a QR reader on the front here, it's If you're dealing with different seed words or typing out passphrase, that can be a really handy feature. It's also got an inbuilt torch as well. So there's just so many useful features with this Coldcard Q that I'm looking forward to playing around with. I just got mine, and so it has the similar setup where you will have your, you know, you'll have your PIN, this is a test obviously, but you'll have your PIN, your anti-fishing code words, seed word, anti-fishing code words rather, and you can also write down your With Keeper, with various different apps, and this is a way to keep your Bitcoin private keys offline and secure in that way. And so it's a very versatile, device where you can use it with, SD card, you can use it with NFC, or of course, you can use QR so for the air gapping. So CoinKite have a range of products as well as the Coldcard or the Coldcard Q. They have things like the TapSigner and they have the BlockClock. So you can find all of that over at CoinKite dot com. Use code Liver On your cold card. And finally, Nomad Capitalist Live is coming up. I'll be speaking there. This is an event on by Andrew Henderson and his team at Nomad Capitalist. It's gonna be on in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, September 25th to 28th of this year. Now, I was a speaker there last year, I had a great time. It was also in the same hotel, in the Majestic Hotel, and I'm looking forward to it again this year. If you wanna hang out with capitalists from around the world who share your views about getting the government" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:18", "start": 2538.17, "text": "In mobility and being able to go different places and have options, this is a great event for you. They're gonna have Tony Fernandez, CEO of AirAsia, many of you in the Bitcoin world, you all know Safety in Amos, he's gonna be there as a speaker. Many of you will also know Peter Saint-Ange, he will be there as a speaker, and many, many others. and I think what you'll find is a really interesting audience of people who are interested in Mobility, as well as looking at ways to get lower taxes, looking at things like secondary passports or residences. So the tickets are now launched, they-- the prices will be going up soon, in about fifteen days or so, so make sure you go and check it out over at nomadcapitalist dot com slash live. And now back to the show. Yeah, great point. And, look, ultimately, a lot of Bitcoiners are gonna be thinking about in terms of, you know, Bitcoin cycles, right? There's twenty thirteen, twenty seventeen, twenty twenty one, arguably we're going One now, and so there'll be a lot of Bitcoiners who are thinking, \"Oh, hey, I wanna try to time the top, right? Like, I wanna try to sort of, you know what I mean? They'll be looking at an opportunity of, \"Oh, maybe if I wait a year, it might be less coin, that kind of... That's, that's probably the mindset that a lot of Bitcoiners will be- That's what they said," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "43:30", "start": 2610.38, "text": "yes, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:32", "start": 2611.96, "text": "Yeah. And so they'll-- many of them will be in that mindset, but at the same time, as you said, some of these programs are gonna either go away or the price of the program will go up. So that's also something people have to balance in their own mind of, okay, how much more do I really wanna wait? Versus this program that might, might not exist or the price might rise. So I mean, let me give you one other" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "43:54", "start": 2633.66, "text": "thing. And by the way, I'm not some guy sitting in Austin telling you to do this, like with my one passport. I've walked the walk, and I remember talking to my ex-girlfriend back like- A lot of years ago, by doing Saint Lucia, oh, it's a hundred grand, it's a lot. It's like, listen, it's good for you, for what you do, but you will find a use for it because of everything. If you believe what you say, everything you're talking about, a hundred grand, you'll make that in how long? How long will it take you to make that back? And so I think we all let the ego get in play, and I think the ego will get in play of, \"Oh, I missed it at a hundred grand, so screw it, I'm taking my ball and going home with two hundred.\" My thought though is, the more, you know, big-- I mean, yes, don't time the market. I mean, every investor I watch says you don't time the market. I told people to, to kind of time the market in the sense of exit your country's tax system when, when it was at seventeen grand. Right? And you would've, you would've had a one quarter exit bill, or probably nothing, 'cause maybe your basis was higher than seventeen grand. But the more successful Bitcoin becomes The more it gets pressed, remember back in twenty twenty-one, you couldn't turn on CNBC or even CNN without have seen something about Bitcoin. It was in the public imagination, it was in the zeitgeist. And so what does that mean? It means it's on the attention of lawmakers It's on, you know, it's on the mind of all kinds of people. It means it's gonna attract a lot more people who may not share your values to the platform. It's gonna attract, people who, they love KYC and they love regulations, and, you know, what do you mean I, I can't reset my password with the banker? so it's gonna bring all those things. And, I mean, one of the reasons why I decided ultimately I didn't wanna be tied to the United States was, I'm not a very sympathetic person. I think I'm a pretty kind person at my, at my, at my core, but does the US government see that? No, they don't wanna see that. To them, my profile is, you know, successful guy, who wants to overseas, likes it better, doesn't wanna date our women, but just all these things like, you know, some rich guy who abandoned us. Is that a, is that a prominent voting bloc? Is that someone any politician is catering to? Now, I guess if you go and lobby them with your SBF and you go and lobby them, sure, they'd love to take your money. but I'm not in that game, and so I just said to myself, \"Who's gonna look out for me? \" I always said, \"Hey, let me vote for the best interest of the country, even if it costs me a little bit more. \" But other people like, \"Hey, screw you, times are tough, I'm looking out for myself only. If we gotta throw you under the bus, all these...\" So my point is, these rich Bitcoiners, let's be honest, I mean, I know plenty of just perfectly nice, normal Bitcoiners," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "46:41", "start": 2800.86, "text": "but Some, some jerk in a Lamborghini driving around with seven girls in a bikini on the back, like, you know, like they'll use all the debauched behaviors. This is what a bitcoiner is. They'll turn the public against, \"Oh yeah, these people, they're making a lot of money.\" The more it goes up, the more you're gonna be a target, and the more you're gonna need a second passport, and then, let's say there's another pandemic or some black swan event, you couldn't renounce We found six, I was going through the notes about a month ago, we found six embassies at the worst point, six embassies that would take people to renounce. One of them was in Chad. You wanna go to Chad, right? And like there was literally, it made it to the Wall Street Journal, Americans are frustrated they can't renounce. What happens if you can't renounce during the next bull market? And what if your passport is delayed? They've been a little slower lately with some of these new things, with the interviews. What if you're close to that two million mark and just when you're there, and you wanna get out scot free? You're like, \"Okay, let me do this,\" and then you can't, and now you're at eight million by the time you get your passport and you get your appointment. I just think it's better to be ready, and sometimes they cost something, and that's what I've always done. I, I- Had multiple passports before I decided to renounce, and I didn't always know why, but I knew why in the long run." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:04", "start": 2883.74, "text": "Yeah. and so as you were saying, you have to really- Yeah, just be wary of what can happen o-over the course of the cycle, right? As you said, the, you know, the, the state or the political environment may change. you know, some-- maybe some bitcoiners would argue, \"Hey, look, they'll be-- bitcoiners will be more wealthy, they can try to influence, you know, the local politics a bit more.\" but it, it depends what game you're in, as you, as you mentioned, right? Like for some people, it's more about thinking about the opportunities that are available Or certain business plays that wouldn't be feasible back in your home high tax country. Maybe that opportunity enables you to earn more, so maybe that's an opportunity conversation, right? What sort of opportunities are there by going overseas?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "48:55", "start": 2934.66, "text": "I think the lifestyle opportunities are so much better. I, I listen, I, I understand people wanna lobby and they wanna, they wanna fix things. I, I just say to myself, everything happens for a reason. If the US or any other countries in the state it's in, there's a reason. Like it didn't just happen by accident. People got it there, and that was a result of millions and millions and millions of different decisions from people all over the country. This idea that we're gonna spend our effort fixing it when you could just go somewhere else, I guess there's a nobility people feel in doing that, like they feel a sense of purpose. I'd rather have a sense of purpose doing what I'm doing influencing, I think, just as many people. people come up to me, people came up last year at the event, one guy said, \"You know, I, I, I, you changed my life. I went overseas, I found a woman, you know, I'd always had problems dating, and I found, you know, a beautiful woman that I'm in a very happy relationship with.\" I'm seeing that some people in my own company that are in places like Ireland and in the West, they start coming with us, like the social connections they're making so much more easily, it's remarkable. and so that's an opportunity. No matter how much you fix the economics, you know, I see this every time, I deal with something personal, is when something personal happens, when someone around you is at risk, when a relationship in your life is at jeopardy Suddenly my focus on, we have to maximize this month's revenue, diminishes 'cause you're like, you know, this is more important, the relationship is more important. and so I think that kind of stuff for me has been easier to navigate overseas. I think there are more opportunities overseas. I think if you wanted to start a business it's easier to do that in many ways overseas. We have someone come in and talking about investing in Africa at the event, and I've known people who are in Africa, you start some of the simplest businesses and get huge returns. It's almost like kind of like Bitcoin level stuff you're getting in at those early stages. So, yeah, I listen, everyone's gonna have a different opinion. Obviously, three hundred and thirty million people have chosen to live in the US, chosen to live with the taxes, chosen to live with whatever. Many of the people don't pay any taxes, so that wasn't an easy decision for them to make. But Be clear, every day when you wake up, you've chosen to live where you're living. If you own an asset and you're not selling it, you've chosen to buy it. and I think that people probably-" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "51:27", "start": 3086.8, "text": "Because it's a, it's a tough thing to own, that maybe there's, as the US gets worse, there is more friction about why am I here? the sense of wanting to be noble and thinking that you'll save it, you'll be the hero, comes in, perhaps as a defense mechanism for, I could just go somewhere else and it's great. But I, I respect what everyone does, and, and obviously three hundred and thirty million people in just that one country alone have, have chosen to disagree with me, that's fine. I, I, I don't And, I'm here to talk about what I'm doing, and I can tell you I'm wealthier, happier, and more free, as determined by me, by the way, I'm more free." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:08", "start": 3128.04, "text": "Of course. when it comes to going overseas, are there any common misconceptions that you'd like to dispel? Like, what are some common things that people think about going overseas that actually they're wrong on?" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "52:20", "start": 3140.5, "text": "It was a lot. I mean, from the tax side, the one eighty three day rule, we might have talked about this before, numerous countries like Australia have numerous rules, so there might be, you know, three, four, five different tax tests. One of them is the days test I talked last summer, some people were up in arms, many of them had something specific to sell you, which is why they were up in arms, but I said, \"I see what Australia is doing with, with, you know, changing some of their tax wording.\" to be, a move towards citizenship-based taxation, where if you are an Australian and you don't live overseas the way we approve of, maybe we'll define that you should pay us. so there's a bit of nuance to that, but it's a step in the wrong direction. And so, you know, simply spending fewer than one hundred and eighty-three days in Australia, like one eighty-two, it's not gonna help you, 'cause there's other tests that would ensnare you. So if you're gonna leave a country like Australia, you really wanna minimize the time you have in Aus-- you spend in Australia and the assets you have in Australia. So I think people can get ever misguided about that. You know, talk about Malaysia, where the event's gonna be, oh, it's a Muslim country. I can tell you, numerous people have had the conversation there, if you're one of the Malays, I think it's about fifty-five or sixty percent of the population, there's also Malaysian Chinese, Malaysian Indians, there's a lot of foreigners, very open, very open country," }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "53:42", "start": 3222.29, "text": "Mexico, they have these kind of open to all kind of countries. But they, the Malays will tell you, \"We have our God, we follow our God, we do what He says to do. you can have your own God or no God, and you can do what, what you, you know, what, what you're supposed to be doing, and that's your business and not for us to judge.\" If you become Muslim and you, and you are, if you are Malay, if you marry a Malay, I suppose, you'll enter that circle. Well, hey, here's how we expect you to be. And sure, if you go to a government building, shouldn't wear short shorts. But if you go to the mall, if you come to Majestic Hotel, where we're gonna be, no one at all is gonna say one word. I don't think knowing these people, that they're gonna even think one thing in their head if you wear short shorts, or if you have a drink. or if you do whatever, and we had, you know, you saw, we even had, you know, you know, gay guests last year, and sometimes they worry a little bit, no problem, one of them got back, wow, what a great experience, and they told me exactly what you said they would. So, you know, that's something, Istanbul, where I live, another place. Every country has its own Alabama, where people may be more judgmental, but Istanbul, Kuala Lumpur aren't it? you know, Zubi was there last year, talked about Saudi Arabia, they're probably more strict, but he says not as strict as you might think. so, you know, this, oh, people there are different. is a challenge. Quite frankly, again, it comes down to openness, it comes down to kindness, those are the cultural elements that I look at, and some of the aforementioned countries that I mentioned, or just where I was in Colombia, very kind people. South America has kind of this left wing government obsession that comes through every once in a while, but out in the rest of the world, if you have open minded, open to all, kind people, I found that's where you're the most free And I think Malaysia is a perfect example of that. So you don't wanna, you know, let's say you're moving to Malaysia from Australia, you wanna keep your time in Australia, you know, below one hundred and eighty-two days, probably substantially. Those are two that come to mind, but there's so many others, and of course, that's what we talk about for four days of the event, and we've got a whole day of like misconceptions and challenges. hiring overseas is another one. we thought We probably had hundreds of wrong ideas that we've kind of learned from experience, you know, Hati is gonna talk about that, just how to hire overseas. The Culture Map is a great book that kind of dispelled a lot of our notions. People are different in other countries. But I mean, there's a lot." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:09", "start": 3368.57, "text": "Yeah, sure. I, I think we've covered a lot this conversation. So, we'll just remind everybody, Nomad Capitalist Live, the dates are September 25th to 28th, this year in Kuala Lumpur. I'm looking forward to be there, obviously Andrew's gonna be there, Safety Nomos is gonna be there, so I think there's a lot there for, Bitcoiners, you know, you might be interested in coming along, learning a bit about Nomad Capitalism and what are" }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "56:37", "start": 3396.79, "text": "And what I love, by the way, about Kuala Lumpur is people say, \"Well, that's far for North Americans.\" One of the other things we didn't mention earlier is my business has dramatically expanded beyond North America, through a number of things we've done. I love working, I mean, I understand Americans who think the way we do, I love talking to them, we can have the best conversations. I think everyone should have an international business, international portfolio. So we've expanded, we've got clients from all over the world. But now with this, with the in Kuala Lumpur, it's closer to most people. You're in Dubai, it's closer than going to Mexico. I want people who are from North America to come 'cause they wanna come. I, you know, the flight to me, once you're on a flight, you're on a flight, whether it's five hours or twelve hours, but getting to meet people from all around the world, we had people last year, you probably know better than I do, from Malaysia, from Singapore, from India, from like all over Asia like from everywhere, and I think that's incredibly powerful. Like, we have to talk to people who know stuff we don't know. I learn every time I meet people, but I, you know, I don't learn as much talking to folks from the US, 'cause we talk about what we already know. And I think people should want to expand their horizons that way, get a little bit out of the comfort zone. That's why we chose Kuala Lumpur, 'cause everyone can go visa free, with the exception of like six or seven countries, so it's really easy to get into, it's really affordable, But I just think that's a good thing to have. I think you're in Dubai, you have that, like, right? I, I just think that, we gotta get out of that comfort zone." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:11", "start": 3491.38, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a great, reminder for people out there that there's a whole world out there and, being open-minded about some of the different countries out there, you know, not necessarily paying attention to what the headlines, are and actually going out there, seeing it on the ground, talking to people who are on the ground, and I think that Forward to seeing you there and, thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "andrew_henderson", "time": "58:34", "start": 3514.32, "text": "My pleasure as always." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:36", "start": 3516.04, "text": "So I hope you got value out of the show. Find the show notes at stephanelivera dot com, give us a like and a share if you enjoyed it. That's it from me. Thanks, and I'll see you in the citadels." } ] }