{ "episodeId": "SLP570", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "parker_lewis_of_zaprite": { "name": "Parker Lewis of Zaprite", "role": "guest", "tag": "PARKER" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.1, "text": "Even if somebody doesn't get it, they're like, \"That rancher's taking Bitcoin as payment, my doctor in Austin takes Bitcoin as payment, and it's difficult to criminalize people that look like that. You know, where it's like, \"Well, it's just a doctor taking payments, it's just a dentist taking payments, it's just a rancher taking payments.\" You stack enough of that, you make those people that are otherwise trying to restrict and constrain your freedoms more ridiculous." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "00:38", "start": 37.95, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by swan dot com. Rejoining me is my friend Parker Lewis. He's the author of Gradually Then Suddenly, which is a great book, well, it started as a blog series, it's now a book. He is also at Zaprite. So, Parker, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:54", "start": 54.26, "text": "Hey, it's good to be back, Stefan. it was good to see you, a couple weeks ago, Bitblock Boom. And, yeah, it's been too long since we got together to have a conversation like this. so, excited to be back on the show." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "01:07", "start": 66.58, "text": "So there's a lot of things that have been going on, in the space. I mean, the Samurai Wallet guys were arrested, Phoenix and Async have exited the US, Wasabi has exited the US, you know, there's the Roger Ver arrest as well. what are you making of all this?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:24", "start": 83.63, "text": "Yeah, I, I think that it's, it's, not coincidental, but maybe a surprise to, to some people that these actions that, you're, you're really kind of the specific action that the Department of Justice, Southern District of New York has taken against, the Sent Samurai wallet, founders and operators comes just on the heel of the Bitcoin ETF being approved and launched in, in the subsequent months. I do think that, you know, having that and keeping that in context, because when the Bitcoin- Bitcoin ETF was launched, it was really approved, or the series of ETFs that were launched, that, followed the approval by the SEC. the SEC approved that begrudgingly, and that there's other interests in the United States, someone who's very vocal in opposition to Bitcoin is someone like Senator Warren, and that i-it's also not surprising that the Department of Justice and, and likely allies within, the US Treasury Regulatory department and, and FinCEN would, would ramp up their, essentially legislation by, prosecutorial discretion, and by enforcement actions. so I think that, you know, my, my personal perspective is there's a lot, a lot to digest in the, in the Samurai case. it does seem like, it's going to have a chilling effect, and that, you know, I think that You though also have to look at every individual circumstance, differently and un-uniquely. I think that Samurai is certainly different from Phoenix pulling out of the US, and it's certainly, even though Wasabi Wallet, operated a mixer similar to Samurai, it was different, and I think that, you know, you know, I, I don't fault, you know, someone who's running Wasabi from doing that But just also recognizing that each company's facts and circumstances are different, and then when you then compare individual companies and the nature of their services to other companies that entirely, entirely different and not similar, that, that they shouldn't all be, all be lumped together. I do think that there's the possibility that people overreact, but I also think that it is a good, stress test, not that, you know, certainly, not wanting anything bad to happen to any individuals, but I think it is really going to have the broader effect, even if the near term impact may be, chilling the type of activities or even What people are willing to say about it in the US, that in the end, in an aggregate, the consequence will be that everyone has just gotten a, you know, kind of shot across the bow, a very loud signal, and that combination of the way things build people, or the way thing-- the way people build tools, as well as, you know, at the individual level to groups of people becoming more active, in defending the rights of Bitcoin and Bitcoin- Holders within the United States and abroad will be heightened as a result of this. So I, I do ascribe, not to make light of it at all, but in the, economic theory that Keynesians push that everything is good for Bitcoin, and that in this case, everything being good for Bitcoin meaning that, the tools that get built will be built, more consciously given the latest s-sets of actions, but then also, I think it will become a call to action that, people within the Bitcoin community need to, not just be more proactive, because I think there has been a lot of advocacy, but needs to be a lot more strategic and, and, and recognize that we're playing for keeps now, and that this also wouldn't be happening if, the, the legacy financial system wasn't weak, wasn't fragile, wasn't tenuous itself, and, and that, that at some point, I think everyone realistically knew that this would, these type of things would happen. And happen in an accelerating way, maybe just not as soon as today." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "05:41", "start": 340.51, "text": "Yeah. And so you made a good point around the way tools have been built in this ecosystem, and I think let's, we should go into that a little bit, because, now, to be clear, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an expert on the US regulatory environment, but as I understand it, FinCEN came out with some guidance, and some of that guidance has been followed over the years in terms of how products and services were built in this ecosystem. So I will point out that, some- Sometimes people confuse the term mixer with coinjoin or non-custodial coinjoin, and there is a, I think there is a difference in the way some of these services were constructed. So as an example, Samurai Wallet, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket, these are non-custodial tools, and it's, it is a-- there is a difference of character in that the user who holds those private keys is You know, using-- obviously they're using these coordinating softwares, whether it's Samurai or Wasabi, to self-send, you know, in a coinjoin fashion, but that has historically been seen as different to, let's say, custodial mixes. And so I know, there was the Bitcoin Fog case and I believe, Chipmixer, and so in those cases, historically, the courts- Saw a difference there between a custodial mixer and a non-custodial service, and you could also argue that many services that have been built with a, you know, with that kind of self-custodial focus, right? Whether it's Unchained Capital or others out there That have designed their service in this way. what do you think it means now that the US government, seemingly, or at least the prosecutors, are trying to overturn this or go back on what was previously FinCEN guidance?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:27", "start": 447.36, "text": "Yeah, and I think that there's, there's a few things that I would say kind of on the front side, which I agree with you completely, that the way things are built and the nature of the service Is highly con- and the facts and circumstances which someone like FinCEN or DOJ or anyone would specifically say that, that it's specific to the facts and circumstances of a certain service, a certain tool, a certain company. I think that there are a few things that, you know, are at play, and, and one of the things that, that, you know, when, when I read through some excerpts, I read through the full indictment, but I believe there have been responses to the same articles, I haven't read the full response, but I did go back and, and rere 2019 guidance is that there's a difference between law, there's a difference between rules making, there's a difference between, you know, guidance from FinCEN, and then there's a difference between the DOJ and, the Department of Justice, and there can be, areas within both rules making and guidance as well as Selective prosecution that interpret laws that can, stretch the meaning of those laws or the intentionality of, of what was meant, and then those are all ultimately tested in the court system. And that I think, you know, again, and I'm not a lawyer, but recognizing that FinCEN, you know, because what basically what the Department of Justice is saying is that, you know, FinCEN isn't necessarily the authority on this, which throws- Everybody into chaos because we're all, from, you know, people, when I say we, anybody that's building infrastructure within the United States is relying upon the guidance that the, you know, financial crimes and enforcement network, that is a unit of the, the US Treasury Department is sending out. They're sending out their interpretation of law, and then in this case, the Department of Justice has functionally, interpreted the law Different than, or in, in, in conflict or in contradiction to what the Treasury and, Department of, or sorry, the Treasury Department and, in FinCEN has said. And so when I personally read the, the FinCEN guidance, and again, they were from twenty nineteen, we're in twenty twenty four, typically if there's an update to guidance, they will update it, but that is also one other caveat that five years has changed and, you know, if their interpretation- change that doesn't necessarily mean they have to put out, you know, a new set of guidance, even though that is traditional practice, is that in that guidance they specifically talk about anonymizing services. And then they differentiate that from anonymizing software, right? And so basically, and they distinguish, and one of the things, and in, in my own interpretation, I think this is something that everyone who's building infrastructure, to serve the Bitcoin community or Bitcoin holders in the United States, but particularly everywhere, needs clarity on, is In the FinCEN guidance from 2019, and then also in private letter rulings that they had linked in that guidance, they specifically refer to money transmission as accepting And transmitting, and that it's both of those things together. You accept funds, and then you transmit funds. You accept funds from one person, and you transmit funds from another. What the Department of Justice is trying to seemingly, stretch the definition or, potentially change the meaning of a law or of a statute is saying that you don't actually have to accept and transmit to be a money transmitter. And then if you are a money transmitter and you don't- don't have the proper licenses, then you've committed a crime. And so understanding this important distinction that, that based on everything that FinCEN put out, and then there were also in these private letter rulings where they would expressly say, \"You never had control of funds, you never control funds, therefore you're not a money transmitter.\" and then when you think about that in the context of the Samurai case, that they never were in control of funds, and the Department of Justice admits such, they're trying- Trying to change the scope of what the word money transmission means and, you know, creating law in my-- in my personal view, creating law Via, enforcement actions and, and criminal complaints isn't the right way to create law. we might not agree with a law that said, you know, any coin join service, whether custodial or non-custodial, in the United States isn't lawful. We might not agree with that, and then that could be challenged. But then at least there would be a law that states that passed by legislators, not the interpretation of- Of one district in the state of New York. And so my reading of it says when they talk about anonymizing services, they say anonymizing services are money transmission, but it doesn't talk about, you know, who's running a server or not. It specifically talks about accepting and transmitting funds, you know, basically establishing that, you know, if you were to read that, that text, that their definition of an- Anonymizing services would be a custodial service, and then when they talk about, the fact that, you know, anonymizing software and, and, you know, it depends on who's running the software and whether the person running the software is a money transmitter, but the software itself isn't money transmission. And so such that if you developed a tool and then open sourced it, and then the samurai case seems to fit in a gray area, but where there is a gray area in terms of the interpretation to any- Anyone that, that I think, you know, setting aside the samurai case, 'cause I do think there's specific circumstances set out to them that make them unique, is this lack of clarity on this idea of, like, can, can you be a money transmitter if you never touch any money? You know, because to a common sense person, they would say certainly not, based on all FinCEN guidance that previously existed, it would say certainly not, and based on FinCEN private letter rulings, it would, it would say not, and in that case, I would also be very surprised if there's ever been a DOJ case against somebody, accusing them of violating a money transmission law, without having ever been in possession of funds. so I think that, that, that certainly when you read through the indictment of Samurai, that, that complaint, the, that, that what is at the forefront is the money laundering aspect of it, their, their alleged knowledge of- Of that activity, ongoing on their platform and then not taking, you know, steps to prevent that. I think that absent those facts and circumstances, it would be very, it, it would be very difficult to conceive a case like this being brought against somebody else that wasn't in possession of money, and that doesn't make their, their complaint valid. I think it just, you know, is a, is a, you know, kind of more, broad recognition that if not- For, the other elements of what they allege specifically related to money laundering would this case be brought? But then it becomes certainly relevant to everybody building, to people like Phoenix, to people, like Wasabi Wallet. Wasabi Wallet looks a lot similar, again, facts and circumstances of their business very different than, Samourai, but, but similar at the same time, and different just in terms of how the, the tools work. So, ultimately I think that what it will come down to are my perspective or where everyone would gain clarity is this definition of money transmission and, and also recognizing that for that to change, a statute really needs to change, and that's law, and, and we could either agree or disagree or challenge that, but that, that to me seems the right way to carry forward. And so I would caution people not to overreact, but to, to start taking it extremely seriously and start becoming very active, in terms of, in terms of advocacy, and, and my perspective on that is that we need a new- new class of advocates, that, that, that are just Bitcoin focused, that don't lump Bitcoin in with everything else because everything is so different when you get into facts and circumstances just within Bitcoin and the different segments of how Bitcoin works and also its significance and just size and, and merits its, you know, kind of- Being legislated or regulated on its own and not confused with everything else that exists, in the world." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "16:38", "start": 998.06, "text": "So in terms of Bitcoin industry and advocates responding. Do you have any thoughts there on what people should be doing? Is it a factor of donating to these particular cases? Is it a matter of donating to some kind of Bitcoin lobbying and advocacy organization? What, what do you see, that Bitcoin people should be doing?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:03", "start": 1023.22, "text": "I, I don't have my full fleshed out thoughts, so I'm, I'm, I'm hesitant to, to go into too much details, but I think that, historically, the historical, advocacy groups that have- Been quasi advocating for Bitcoin have demonstrated to be unsuccessful, I think. So what I would s- you know, what I would say is very clearly, Bitcoin needs to be in its own bucket. People need to start saying the word Bitcoin, sunset, digital assets, sunset, the consequence of lumping in all snake oil that doesn't have to do with Bitcoin, and, and just focus on Bitcoin such that, if there are advocacy groups that, that push that other narrative, those, those other things have proven to be unsuccessful. I think that also- Personal opinion, Washington, DC, and that federal landscape, albeit we have good advocates in the US, like, Senator Lummis, like someone like Warren Davidson, like someone like Ted Cruz, senator from Texas, that it's not to say that the, the work that, that, that people are doing in Washington specifically from inside those bodies is, is not important, it's, it's very important. But I think from, from a- The bit, the Bitcoiner side, it is getting, you know, for people in the US specifically, it is actually getting through to people at the state level and that there's no shortcut around helping somebody understand Bitcoin. because in order for them to be able to distinguish and understand why they need to protect rights for Bitcoin holders and, and, and enumerate Bitcoin specifically, they have to have some of their own primary First hand understanding about Bitcoin that isn't rooted into what a lobbyist says. And, and then it comes to finding people in those local states, you know, kind of local, you know, jurisdictions like the state of Texas or the state of Ohio that, are actually willing to do that work and are actually principled people, 'cause there's so many politicians that aren't principled that are there for the power. And so I think it is, you know, Bitcoin is still small in the grand scheme, so we don't have these massive budgets to go lobby You have to be hyper strategic and hyper tactical and hyper conscious of both the limitations of time as well as the limitation of money and resources, to, to be effective. So it's to, it's to focus on Bitcoin to, to sunset or shed the, the, the, you know, the blockchain association, you know, with Bitcoin and to also, be tactical in terms of the venues, because I think the thing that will ultimately be in, in, specifically in- in the United States, but also I think it will serve everyone in the world, is that if this becomes a state versus federal, battle, and that rather than me as an individual or as a company or samurai as individuals or samurai as a company, that You know, or Phoenix or Wasabi or whoever else is out there, you know, certainly like it's impacting a broad set of people, that it's not individuals and companies fighting this fight, it's states, fighting the federal government to protect the rights of its citizens. and so, so I think going to the state level in the, in, in the US specifically, helping them understand Bitcoin and why they should care is a important input or precursor to actually getting meaningfully, meaning-" }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "20:40", "start": 1239.85, "text": "Yeah. So you, you mentioned this importance of getting state lawmakers to understand Bitcoin. Now, I agree with you, but let's say somebody's listening and they're thinking, \"Well, you know,\" Satoshi left when Gavin went to the CIA or, people have other arguments like, \"Oh, don't engage with them, just, just write code,\" or \"You're, you're never gonna get through to them, you're better off trying to write code.\" What would you say to that? Why, why should you focus on getting- Lawmakers to understand Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:12", "start": 1271.73, "text": "I, I think that it's certainly both, right? Being conscious of how the tools are made and to, to make tools that, that protect those rights, but that, The people that are building those tools, like we've, we've seen the chilling effect that civil litigation can have on people from, you know, the, the Craig Wright is a fraud people and, and using the UK as a, as a DDoS against Bitcoin developers or, you know, other people like Peter McCormick. so that is a reality and it has an impact on the ability for people to build tools because- People don't, you know, there's a certain class of person that is s-certainly willing to develop tools and, and accept the reality that the FBI could show up on their door for doing nothing wrong. For, for operating in their own mind, that, you know, completely consistently with the laws and the, the spirit of the laws in the country that they live in. And that those laws and that system, they're run by somebody. And so my personal perspective is you can either engage in that and start to influence that for what is right. and the other thing I meant to mention is I think that the right way to approach it is to, to enshrine the rights of Bitcoin holders. I genuinely believe at some point in the United States, when Bitcoin is won, we're going Specifically says Bitcoin, that, that, that you have the right to use Bitcoin and transact in Bitcoin and mine Bitcoin doesn't mean that if you commit some other crime and use it as money, that you're not guilty of a crime, but, but that, those type of- Rights that we have only become rights by a group of people forming a consensus and getting those changes to law or changes to a constitution done. and so I, I think it is that, that it has to, has to be both, otherwise, you know, freedom doesn't, freedom doesn't really exist if we have to build tools just to, run from a state that has- Ronan Mck, because if it has, it's going to, you know, it's going to find you and it's going to, you know, in the real world, cause you serious consequences." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "23:30", "start": 1409.95, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. 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So for example, the micro SD card, which is- is available on the Mark IV, or you can also use micro SD cards on the Coldcard Q, and the Coldcard Q also has an extra way, which is this QR code, so you can scan, and read it back that way, and do your transactions also in that fashion. So there's a range of different features and ways that you can improve your security, but you can just start basic with a single signature hardware wallet, and then later think about, okay, do I wanna do a passphrase? Do I wanna use Bip 85? Do I wanna use Seed X or do These are all some of the things that are available to you. The Coldcard and CoinKite team are always innovating and putting out new products. They have a range of different products, so for example, the TapSigner is a cheaper device for those people who want a specific, different kind of UX that's also there. They also have the SeedPlate, which is a way for you to back up your seed words in a metal product. So there's all kinds of products there. Go to coinkite dot com to get yours and use the code LIVERA for a discount over at As you mentioned, there's this idea of having the states push back against the federal, and I wonder if you see parallels there in terms of drug legalization, That might be another area that we've seen this kind of states versus the federal government, sort of, come at odds, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:49", "start": 1549.33, "text": "Yeah, I, I think so, and there's, I'm not an expert in law, you know, I do, I do pay attention to it, but, you know, thinking about ways that, you know, the federal government has- say overreached or, I think, you know, like one of the examples is, you know, with, with drugs in the United States, you know, the, the outlawing of marijuana as an example. was basically a federal law that many people challenged the constitutionality of, but then, there's, you know, the federal government has the ability to, To regulate interstate commerce, and if your bank functionally touches the Federal Reserve, then money is moving all over the place, and now the federal government has a way to, to legislate this. I still think at that time, that's why something like a constitutional amendment will likely be important at the end of the day. But to the analogy that you raised is, states started saying, \"Hey, we view this as unconstitutional, we're gonna start passing our own laws, \"and then we will be in the position of- Of battling the, the government doesn't mean the federal government couldn't come take an action on an individual, but a state attorney general could intervene or just more directly take that, that fight up on behalf of its citizens, and that really, in my view, is the, the, The underlying foundation or genius of the US system is that there's these, you know, or not initially, but now today, fifty sovereign states that have an affiliation in a, in a federal constitution, but that most, all other things are relegated to the states that aren't expressly enumerated. And so I do think that The, that the right, that that is the right analogy where if the, if certain states start to take that action, that, hey, we're gonna give you clarity, and then If there's something that seems to be in conflict versus what a federal action is, then we will go take that fight up with the federal government, and that doesn't prevent the federal government from taking an action, but you have a lot more, you, you have a, a, a much better chance, and you're in a much better position, at least in the United States, if it becomes of interest and of significance to a state government and a state, governor and a state attorney general to take on that fight. So I do think I think it is, it is a good analogy in that as enough states get behind it, then it shifts the will of the federal government to continue to try to enforce things that are realistically, you know, kind of legislation by rules making rather than actual law." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "28:38", "start": 1717.68, "text": "Yeah. And so if we're in the, if we are moving into the \"then they fight us\" stage or \"then they fight you\" stage, as you said, having at least some states on side is, is a valuable thing, there. Can you comment there in terms of any advocacy work you've been doing, at the state levels? obviously, I know you're, you're, you're obviously quite involved in advocacy as well. how has that gone, trying to educate? politicians and lawmakers." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:09", "start": 1748.57, "text": "Yeah, so I've done, all of my advocacy to this point has been informal, not creating an entity and, you know, paying lobbyists. Part of it's informed by my personal view that paying lobbyists is just a way to further the same broken system, and that, the way that- the only way through this storm is to actually help principled people understand Bitcoin and then put those principled people, that are legislators, legislators, in a position of doing their job better. I like to think about it like, hey, if a, if a state senator or, or a state representative in like the state house or a federal senator or a federal repres-representative in the US House of Representatives, if they understand Bitcoin, they're going- And, and, and they align from a values perspective, which to me, there's, you know, at Bitblock, I gave a presentation called \"There's Nothing More American Bitcoin.\" They will be able to do much more to defend Bitcoin and the rights of Bitcoin holders than paying a lobbyist. and so to this point, my advocacy has been more, getting to and in front of- Politicians and, and helping them understand Bitcoin, and then also just, you know, running around the state of Texas and hosting meetups all over the place, helping, you know Individual citizens understand Bitcoin so that they can then take that advocacy to the people that they know, that, that there is a strength in number, but then also that the consequence of that growing number of people that understand Bitcoin is that more and more relationships exist, more, more relationships ex-exist to people that are actually part of that legislative or governance function. I have, as, you know, you know, in the past, had thoughts of doing something on a more formal basis rather than just guerrilla tactics and, and very organically. And, and now with this, with this coming up, you know, kind of these recent regulatory actions or, or actions by the DOJ and, and companies pulling out of the US, I've been thinking more about, hey, maybe I, maybe I do need to actually create a formal entity to do the things that I think should be done in terms of shedding the, you know, the compromise on calling everything a digital asset and also just being more strategic and tactical about how we go about it, in terms of influencing- People and turning people, it's kind of split between my time working on my book and how much leverage I can get from getting that out, as well as time working on Bitcoin payments and saying, \"Okay, you know, kind of, you know, in the balance of, of how you spend your time, you know, where do I get the highest leverage of being, you know, kind of most consequential?\" And it's not to say I don't view- Advocacy as worth my time, it's that it's hard to do all three of those at once. So in an ideal world, I'd help support somebody who had that formal platform that really aligned with the values perspective, and I haven't found that place yet. But now with everything that's happened in, in the past week, but realistically, it's been on my mind for the past several months is, you know, kind of dusting that off and, and trying to put something more formal in place, 'cause, being more active actually at the Capitol building and in front" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:31", "start": 1950.52, "text": "be a worthwhile exercise. It's just, you know, there's only twenty-four hours in a day." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "32:36", "start": 1955.78, "text": "Yeah, and with educating politicians, I think it can also be funny seeing the response in kind of Bitcoin communities sometimes there's like a, a negative response to that. It's seen as like, \"Oh, why are you, why are you simping for that politician? Or why are you trying to do this thing? Or you're, you're trying to put your faith into this politician when they'll just turn around and screw you over anyway.\" What do you, what do you think about" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:01", "start": 1981.14, "text": "That's why I really think that you have to focus on people that are principled, people that will stand behind Bitcoin because they have their own knowledge of it and They're doing it because they understand from their own perspective why it's important and why it's important to their constituents. There are a lot of unprincipled politicians, and I think that, you know, when I say a lot, the vast majority. So if you walked up to your average, you know- Like as an example of what I wouldn't recommend, I look at my district here in Austin and the guy who is the House representative in the US, like zero chance, you know, so I don't spend time working on him. But then, you know, if- One of the, you know, regional officers from Ted Cruz's office comes to the Bitcoin meetup in Houston every month. It's like investing time in those people to educate so they can then educate. So it's, it's really finding the people that will, that will be principled and recognizing or, or at least accepting that they might be few and far between, and because time is so scarce, that trying to, can, you know, educate somebody that's a brick wall or doesn't have incentives or has demonstrated themselves to have, values that might be in contradiction to underlying American values, that it's not worth just going and talking to any politician, that, that, that it is best to be tactical, but that if you find someone that is principled, someone like Senator Lummis, that then they advocate and help take actions without- Being asked what, you know, to do or told, I think once you get in the world of working through lobbyists, you're just paying the lo- you're just, you're fueling the, that, swamp essentially, and that it doesn't actually get anything done. It's just paying someone to horse trade and, and, you know, They'll slowly infringe on your rights and tell you that-" }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "35:04", "start": 2103.79, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a very fair way to put it. In terms of chilling effect that we might see, do you think that will change the behaviors of Bitcoiners in the United States or even of companies inside the United States? Like, will there just be maybe more of a focus on just buy and hodl instead of actually- Spending satoshis." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:26", "start": 2125.57, "text": "I, I don't think so. I do think that everyone will certainly be more conscious of it. I, and I also expect that there will be certain people in the short term that- That are impacted by it and don't want to, deal with the potential that something that might ultimately be a very small risk Could turn out to be somebody knocking on their door and taking away their freedom. So at both times, it's like, \"Yes, certainly, and we're already seeing it.\" Certain, you know? Phoenix Wallet pulling out, Wasabi Wallet pulling out, not conflating those two businesses, but just recognizing that that is a real chilling effect. At the same time, people are gonna continue to build tools for Bitcoin in the United States, people are gonna continue to challenge, you know, and defend their rights. That's the only way, in my opinion, to, to ultimately get to the other side of this fiat conundrum and fiat storm, and that- You know, there is an underlying survival instinct, right? Like I, I don't view Bitcoin as, a nice shiny object, I view it as something that is imperative to get out of this, Massively imbalanced, fragile economic system that is functionally on the verge of collapse. And so, the only way through is to, to build on Bitcoin and to turn Bitcoin into a, a, a fully functional currency that can facilitate direct commerce, and that my, you know, personal view of it, I, it's not really a personal view, I think it's just an objective fact, objective truth that, Money, and you were talking about at, at Bitblock Boom, you know, the distinction between quantity money and quality of money. In order for something to be an effective store of value, it has to be able to be freely exchanged. and the, the reason why money is such an effective store of value is, you know, not only because it has certain properties, and has, and is, is one of those properties being over time the greatest liquidity, but it also has the greatest diversity of liquidity because there isn't a central choke point. You know, when you start to think of- About Bitcoin's liquidity, each time a merchant says I'm willing to accept Bitcoin as payment, Bitcoin's liquidity has grown, but the quality of its liquidity has also grown, the diversity of its liquidity has grown, because that is an absolute necessity, because having a good money is necessary to a functioning society, there is this survival instinct that says, okay, between two, you know, difficult positions, what am I to do? Build the thing that we absolutely have to have and put somebody else in the position to do it because I believe somebody else will. But if we're each faced with that, internal conflict, the overwhelming, you know, kind of instinct, once some of the recency bias or, or freshness of, of these recent actions comes that, that it will be back to focus, but then heightened, be more conscious, be more cognitive, and then be more active in terms of- Doing outreach, not to change laws, potentially to challenge, you know, suing the government, that's a very popular thing to do in the United States, and it's also proved over time, even though it's been painful, to be highly effective and, and to take all avenues. so I think that in the short term, yes, but in the grand scheme, I think that there's enough freedom-loving people that know they're-- that They're on the right side, not just of history, but in the spirit of the tools that are being built, the purposes that they're being built for, and the underlying necessity of them to our future freedom." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "39:19", "start": 2358.68, "text": "Yeah. and let's chat a little bit while we're here, let's chat a little bit about Zaprite, because obviously this is quite related. can you just tell us, you know, what's the latest with Zaprite and, you know, what, what are you working on?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:30", "start": 2370.33, "text": "Yeah, so, yeah, it, it is definitely You know, hyper related, we're, we're still kind of in the process of going through all of our assessment. We have a regulatory perspective that, you know, historically, you know, pr- based on all prior interpretations, Zapright's not a money transmitter. What we are is a, is a Bitcoin payment gateway. And, you know, kind of some of the background and, and to me working on Zapright was rooted in one, wanting to be paid myself and not believing that the thing that I thought should exist existed. considered not in, in the form or fashion that I thought it should, as well as when there was a slew of bank failures last year in the United States, it heightened this need to, to focus on developing the tools that would make Bitcoin payments accessible to more people and to hopefully help contribute alongside other great companies, projects, open source or otherwise, working on the same, you know, broadest level goal because it In my view, it ultimately is that necessity, and when those bank failures to happen last year, it really sharpened my own thinking around saying, \"The time to do this is, is now, and it might have been yesterday too, but it's certainly, it's certainly now.\" And so, Zaprite's going well. We're still very early, we've been offering subscription services for about six months. we're really focused on a few principal type of applications, you know, individuals and businesses issuing invoices, as well as, e-commerce, things like payment links, but E-commerce stores, and ultimately what we do and kind of our, I won't say unique approach, but the, but the approach that we've taken is to be in this position where we are a payment gateway, we're not a money, we're not a money transmitter, we're not a payment processor. Again, certain of the actions that, that, that the DOJ takes might be interpreted to, to, to say that we are, but I think when, you know, anybody realistic, even if, you know, under, you know, reading the same interpretation that, that we but that basically people connect their wallets, their Bitcoin nodes to Zaprite, they can connect custodial accounts, non-custodial accounts, they can also connect fiat rails of payment. Our, kind of vision of this is one of the ways to make it easier for businesses to adopt Bitcoin payment is provide one integrated way for them to receive both fiat and Bitcoin, 'cause we recognize that fiat is a rail, it does exist, it is still necessary. Only, you know, maybe one percent of the world has shifted onto a Bitcoin standard, the other ninety-nine percent have And you need to interact with both of those economies, and the way to get more businesses to accept Bitcoin is by providing that seamless solution to offer both, and to do it in a way that, it's not just philosophically, we think strategically, the best way to do that as a Bitcoin payments company is to be in a position where you're not a wallet, not because we, you know, just don't want to, to, to hold or transmit money, it's that- The, the idea of being a software provider that's facilitating payments is very different than being a wallet provider, and that when you try to do both of those in the same company, it's not just the wrong product, it also, you know, if you think about, especially a, a young early startup like Zaprite, Being resource constrained, there's two different entire skill sets or really pieces of infrastructure for, from a wallet versus a payments interface, a checkout, connecting those two things together, being, you know, more of a fintech company than a bank. And so, you know, that, that's what we're working on, it's going well, we're seeing massive acceleration and businesses coming on the platform, albeit we are, you know, starting from a small base, but, very confident that- The product that we're delivering based on customer feedback and just metrics is, is, is something that the, the market has needed, wanted, but hasn't been there before. And, yeah, so just, you know, having fun talking to, you know, those, those brave individuals on the vanguard that, that have a business that wanna accept this payment and wanna turn bitcoiners into their customers." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "43:40", "start": 2620.2, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. Swann dot com is the leading place to buy Bitcoin, and the Swann team has a mission to onboard millions of people into Bitcoin. Now, the team have been working really hard to update the Swann Bitcoin app, which you can find on the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. So, the team have created a really slick and smooth experience, so now you can go from zero to Bitcoin in just a few minutes. So, if you have family and friends who you are struggling To get them onboarded, well, Swan Bitcoin application is a great way for you to help them. You can be standing there, right there with them, and in just a few minutes, they can have been onboarded and be buying Bitcoin. And Swan are making it really easy to do this because now there's zero fees on the first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys that you do, and it's not just for new customers, it's also for existing customers. So remember to tell your friends and family to go to the app store and search Swan Bitcoin. Install the app and get started with Bitcoin with Swan Bitcoin. This show also brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I use it all the time when I am about to send a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, and I'm often just checking the site anyway, just to keep an eye on where things are at in bitcoins, mempool. Now, you can search transactions, search, take the transaction identifier and search that in mempool dot space, and of course, you can see the, the mempool in terms of unconfirmed transactions. transactions, you can see all kinds of information about the different transactions, such as whether it's had RBF replaced by fee signaled on, and the team are always rolling out new ways to explore and view the chain. And so you can see Bitcoin on chain, you can see the Lightning Network, you can see the mining explorer, there's a liquid network explorer for those of you who want to see that, and they are continually rolling out improvements. They've also got an accelerator program, which you can find over at mempool dot space slash accelerator. So go and sign up over mempool. All dot space slash accelerator. And now back to the show. Yeah, and I think something you were saying that got me thinking from what you were saying earlier was bank failures earlier, right? And this is, you know, a year or two ago, this is really big in the news, right? A lot of people were talking about SVB and the other, you know, Silvergate and, one other bank. Anyway, the point being, it kind of brought that front and center, right? Because there might be a lot of people who were just hodling Bitcoin But had they really set up the rails to be able to do something if your bank, if your fiat system breaks down, do you, do you really like, could you really transact with Bitcoin? Like, have you got the wallet set up for it? And, you know, whether that's paying your staff, whether that's receiving payment from your customers, whether that's you as an individual, have you sort of learnt, have you done the drill of learning how to, you know, use your Lightning wallet as an example? So I think, these- These are really, important questions for any Bitcoin hodler advocate, that you should just be aware of what tooling is out there and what tooling you would actually use if, if something came to pass like that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:55", "start": 2815.33, "text": "Yeah, it's really important. That's an important point that, that I do like to emphasize that you keyed in on there. One Part of this, this, this problem of, of this inherently fragile banking system in, in the US and, and really globally, the entire, you know, whether it's in the EU or Japan, the, those, those financial systems are, are functionally fragile and practically insolvent. and that when the bank failures happened in the US, the first thing that people r-realistically worried about, and when I say realistically, also very reasonably worried about, was how am I gonna make payroll on Monday, right? That, like, that was a common, thing that people were concerned about, specifically the, the, the commercial business customers that were at Silicon Valley Bank. and, and when you think about that, it is, I have a certain amount of savings on my balance sheet, you know, think about as my Bitcoin in treasury. Well, if that isn't there, but in this case it's dollars, if that's not there, how do I pay the people that I need to pay? But the bank is also, and the fragility of the financial system is also a risk from a Rails perspective, because it's also how businesses accept payment. So the first order of problem might be, okay, I've got an existing level of savings and I can't use that to pay the people or other inputs that I need to fulfill and deliver the service that I'm offering as a business. But then the next, immediate next Consequences. Well, I'm also now suddenly cut off from my customers, so I can't replenish my savings, and both of those are equal problems at the end of the day, and that- The right way, or at least I think a, a credible way for a business owner to be thinking about Bitcoin as payment is, y-, if you've recognized, and, and really we're marketing this tool first to Bitcoiners, we're building it for people that actually want the Bitcoin, but if you first started to understand why Bitcoin stores value The importance of its fixed supply. Then it becomes very logical that if you, that you also recognize this fragility of the legacy system and that Like somewhere in the US, a bank is in the process of failing. Is that your bank? You don't know. Now, you might have a couple banks for that reason, but there's a series of bank failures happen because the system is insolvent, and functionally every bank is over leveraged if they, if they didn't print money, they're going to print money to, quote, shore up the banks, that has the consequence of causing the currency to fail over time. And if you've recognized all that, or at least are on that path where you first clicked why Bitcoin- effectively stores value, then you start to look at Bitcoin and its rails as a redundant rail to the legacy system, and if that currency of the legacy system is a risk, then the rails of that system are a risk, and then you start to, start seeing Bitcoin payments and the rails as a way to de-risk your business and the future of your business, because just because you've invested in your business and reducing the uncertainty to have that ability to be paid, doesn't mean that you still can't be connected to the fiat- Rails. And, and then the point that you made, I think, is so prescient. It's one, if you haven't done that before, if you wait to the actual flood, if you wait to the point that your bank has failed, you're, you're already lost. You've waited too long. It doesn't mean that you can't come back from it, but you, you will have endured a lot more pain than had you been set up previously and trained your customers that, hey, this is available, and if you wanna pay me, you can pay me with this. And," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:36", "start": 3036.42, "text": "You actually gotta invest in the infrastructure first. You need to do that before you absolutely have to have it. It is an actual investment in your business. There might be other benefits like reducing costs and other things, but it's an investment in your business to create a redundant rail. And if you haven't ever sent a Bitcoin transaction or you haven't, you know, actually received a Bitcoin transaction, if you were scrambling because you have to do something rather than preparedness and then see the benefits that come from your business, that if you've seen the benefits that have come to- As an individual by holding Bitcoin, you start to translate to holding Bitcoin in your treasury as a business, rather than having, you know, the fiat melting ice cube. The same exact thing happens once you turn on the light to start to accept Bitcoin as payment. You go through the same learning process, actually using the tools, and now you have another tool in the war chest, you know, to be able to have that redundant rail that, you know, I like to think about, you know, there's a central point of failure in the US system, so all the banks are fragile But that New York Fed is a central point of failure. You think about the construction of the Bitcoin network, all these nodes, you can have multiple nodes, multiple service providers, such that one thing goes down, one, another one comes up, and you're not cut off. That, that, that, that the Bitcoin rails are so hyper redundant that it's, that it's far more resilient as a system, and that more business owners, and, and, and I'm hearing this is consistent feedback from the business, businesses that we're onboarding, that as soon as they start to think about it, investment in my business to protect it, reduce uncertainty, reduce a risk, and then start to absorb on the other side the value that it unlocks by being able to attract Bitcoin holders and incorporating in a broader strategy. It's those things together that really, that, you know, make this, this work in aggregate. And so part of what we're doing is building the tools, but the other side is going out there and talking to businesses and helping them understand the importance of it and that, that we think we're contributing to the entire ecosystem, that we're not here to compete with The other companies working on payment solutions that are each tailored to different type of markets, it's to kind of get behind that wave to help usher in the next order of magnitude, order of magnitude, ten x, hundred x, thousand x number of businesses that start to just say that, \"I'm, I'm going to invest in this infrastructure and you can now pay me in Bitcoin and I'd actually prefer that if you're willing to.\"" }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "52:56", "start": 3175.67, "text": "And, I guess it's important just for listeners to understand that it's kind of like a bring-your-own wallet solution as well because- You can hook up different things to the, you know, to Zapright and it's kind of helping you glue those aspects together, right? It's not that the merchant is having to kind of use a Zapright wallet or something like this, it's more like they hook up their LND or their, you know, and there's integrations as well from a fee outside." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:21", "start": 3201.39, "text": "Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So as you, you know, connect a Bitcoin wallet, you connect a Lightning node, you can connect an LND node, you can connect a Strike account or an IBEX account, so Meet the customers where they are, whether that is custodial on their side or non-custodial, and then also connecting their fiat rails. So if they have a Square merchant account for fiat payments, they can connect that into Zapright or a Stripe account, they can connect that into Zapright. You know, consequentially, we don't ever touch money. and so, you know, in that world, again, it's not just because we don't want to touch money and we don't want to be a money transmitter, we're certainly not a payment processor, it's that We're providing these rails of access where when somebody comes to your business checkout and they pay that, it goes straight to them, it doesn't first come to our entity and then we withdraw it to your wallet. In that world, we actually simplify our business by not having to, like, if you think about somebody like Strike or someone like Unchained or, or someone like River or Swan, their, you know, their core business, you know, in terms of they have a service where they help people buy and sell, but ultimately on the underlying Bitcoin side Side, it's, I've gotta secure this Bitcoin, and I need to help it come in and go out, and, and, and the most consequential spending is how it goes out in terms of security. Well, if we can remove that from our business and start to become complements to all of those companies, then we can just focus all of our energy on the payment experience, focus on the next commerce platform to integrate it to, improving the feature set around payment, specifically the payments enablement in, in Zaprite. So it is, it is a, a good point to say, \"You bring Some way to receive Bitcoin that is compatible, but anybody can pay it. If somebody has a Lightning, you know, connection to Zaprite, anybody coming with a Lightning wallet can pay that, and that's the beauty of Bitcoin because it is interoperable, that, all of these companies that are building, whether it's non-custodial, nodes or, you know, custodial wallets, they all speak the same language, so we can operate in this world where we can focus on the, the actual payments experience to check out kind of what the- Payor is experiencing on their site, as well as how the individual is receiving it, just, you know, essentially saying, \"Hey, if you already accept Bitcoin in terms of like that it's real and there's a twenty-one million and you're not accepting as your business, but you get why it exists and why it's important, you have already figured out how you're gonna hold your Bitcoin. In order to receive Bitcoin as payment, we shouldn't force you to change.\" How you've already decided. So if you're a cold card user, awesome. If you like Trezor, awesome. If you're a ledger user, great. if you like Unchained, awesome, you know? But then again, if you're not ready for that step, and it's Strike, connect to Strike account, and we hope to connect, you know, all the other platforms as well. We've got Strike, IBC, we're working on a few others right now. We hope to get River and Cash App talking to, to folks Well, they just have to be sending from a Bitcoin wallet or from a Lightning supported wallet." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "56:28", "start": 3387.76, "text": "And I noticed interestingly there was a, recent blog post you guys had about the Mutiny connection. Now, listeners, I had an episode with Ben Carmen sort of recently as well from the team at Mutiny, but, that one looks pretty interesting as well because it looks like, as I'm just looking at the article, basically Mutiny wallet has a feature where if you buy Mutiny Plus, you can get a-- you can basically hook it to Zaprite and set up" }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "56:54", "start": 3413.78, "text": "You know, let's say you're a listener and you're like, \"How do I help onboard my local merchants? Maybe Mutiny. If it's just kind of like one man band, one guy with his app kind of thing, maybe Mutiny might be an easy one there because it's just kind of the app, you know?\" Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:06", "start": 3425.65, "text": "and I don't even-- it doesn't necessarily have to be one man band. It's like, hey, if there's-- say it's a, it's a business owner and he has a complicated business and he wants to receive Bitcoin payments non-cust And I believe my, my understanding is you gotta, upgrade to Mutiny, Mutiny Plus and have access to a federation, and then you basically have a, a Fedimen, essentially. Then, then you have a mutiny Lightning address, you just take that Lightning address, pop it right into Unchained, you know, acknowledge terms of service, and go. And- Then you connect that Mutiny wallet to a Zaprite payment link, a Zaprite invoice, if you have a WooCommerce store, and so it's now any, any Mutiny user that wants to receive their business Bitcoin payments to that wallet can then do that. And, and that's the beauty of it, because if you even think about that, think about the Mutiny guys. You know, awesome team, awesome wal- working on a wallet, wallet, wallet. If I also had to think about building the wallet as well as the commerce solution, I'm gonna be worse at both those things, but Mutney can focus on the wallet, we can connect Zaprite to Mutney, and then anybody who otherwise chooses to use the Mutney wallet has these commerce solutions at the ready for them. And if you think about, if you had to do all those things at once, not only would you move a lot slower and be able to, to ship a, you know, a lot less, but whatever it is you're building is actually gonna be worse 'cause you're having to, you know, Marry two skill sets with limited resources." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "58:43", "start": 3523.49, "text": "Yeah. So let me just compare, I'll, I'll try to give a bit of context for listeners as well, because maybe you're new or maybe you're not familiar as much with kind of the intricacies. Historically, if I wanted to go teach somebody to be a Bitcoin merchant, I might have had to sort of coach them through how to set up a BTC Pay. You might have had to set them up how to like do their own Lightning node and their own channels, and then kind of receive sat-- and like configure the BTC Pay, receive sat Into that, then send that out into an exchange and sell it there. Now, now to be clear, BTC Pay also have some integrations as well, so it's kind of every, all the apps are kind of getting easier over time, but I think the- Different, the ecosystem and the different options that are available now, as an example with Zaprite and Mutiny or Zaprite and various other things that you can connect to it, it just makes it easier and part of this I see it as, it's a bit of a race against time, right? Like we're trying to help onboard more people to be able to use Bitcoin, so that they can adopt Bitcoin. And so if we can make it easier for them to onboard, you know, that's just all the better for everyone. and so I think kind of, well, like Vijay has said as well, it's kind of like the Uber strategy. We need to kind of get enough people Comfortable with Bitcoin, using Bitcoin, that it just becomes too politically untenable to really ban the thing and stop it that way. Now, I don't think, I don't think a, an outright ban is coming. I think it's more like Regulation might come that makes it difficult to sort of have the freedom vision of Bitcoin, right? And maybe that's one criticism people have, they have this idea of like, \"Oh, maybe you Bitcoiners, you're gonna get your Ngu, but we're not gonna be free anyway, like, because it'll all be in these kind of, you know, custodial BlackRock platforms or whatever.\" I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:37", "start": 3637.77, "text": "Yeah, I, I think that that's where, common sense and like you can't take, you can't take the black pill, you know, like, the common sense freedom-loving American In the spirit of, you know, thinking about inalienable rights, you know, in the context of, you know, can I sell my beef? For Bitcoin. And can I hold that money myself? Like, if somebody tells me no, then they have Gone to such an absurdity that there are enough common sense people that love freedom that will reject that, and that if you add enough of those people up, there's, there's no way to functionally stop that. And that's not to say that- They can't stop an individual or two, but that the absolute value and the absolute necessity of it, and like how ridiculous and absurd it is. Like, think about, like, we onboarded KC Cattle, who's, a ranch, in Kansas City, and they're literally selling beef directly for Bitcoin. And if you start to think about what a Bitcoin transaction is and what a private key is and what's happening in that, it's like I'm, you're, I have the ability to accept data And then have another piece of data, a private key that's securing, you know, an amount of Bitcoin, and I'm willing to take that in return for A piece of stake that I've, you know, spent years perfecting a craft around. That is ultimately what's happening. I'm, I'm literally taking some data in return for A cow that's refined into cuts of beef, right? And that there is some cognitive dissonance for certain people where I was like, \"I do think there's a quantity of it, but then when people look at it and they're like, 'Okay, wait,' you know, even if somebody doesn't get it, they're like, 'That rancher's taking Bitcoin's payment, my doctor in Austin takes Bitcoin's payment,' and it, and it's difficult to criminalize people that look like that. You know, where it's like, \"Well, it's just a doctor taking payments, it's just a dentist taking payments, it's just a rancher taking payments.\" You stack enough of that, you make those people that are otherwise trying to restrict and constrain your freedoms more ridiculous. You know, and realistically, we could do the same thing. I think it's, it's ridiculous when somebody, when the SEC chairman gets on the stage, you know, on CNBC, on a soapbox, and says that Bitcoin's functioning for criminals. And I don't know why these guys don't say, \" Are you calling Paul Tudor Jones a criminal? Are you calling Bill Miller a criminal? Those other people that we have on this show, like, there's, there's, there's ways to turn the, you know, kind of Bitcoin is a store of value on its same head, but also when you start bringing into the mix doctors and ranchers, mainstream people that are, that are accepting Bitcoin as payment, you, you can use those as tools, as examples to say, \"Ah, Elizabeth Warren, do you, do you hate the rancher? Do you think that the rancher...\" That literally produces the food that you eat is not capable of making the decisions on his own and that, that somehow this is supporting terrorism? No, you're the one that's being ridiculous. And so the more people, sheer volume that are doing it, but also just the nature of it, like there's just all these good natured people that have been so fed up about having their money destroyed that they're going to take actions that are necessary to ensure, you know, their future prosperity and survival. And that, you know, some of those instances that then can be turned around to, to, to be used to demonstrate just how obscene certain other actions are, that like those, like we will win, you know, when it comes to that, that, that, that we're not just gonna say, \"Oh, and like everyone's just gonna use, you know, custodial, you know, and then they're gonna figure out how to regulate it away.\" It's like, no, this, this thing, Bitcoin, is seeping into every nook and cranny In the world, it only works because in my mind, it's both everywhere and nowhere all at once. Essentially, nodes are ephemeral. You can turn, shut off, you, you, you can leave your node behind as long, you know, private keys are permanent, nodes are ephemeral, you can light up another node somewhere else. And, and that, you know, if they couldn't, you know, make gold go away, if they couldn't, you know, stop booze from going away and prohibition, if you start to understand the way that Bitcoin works and human nature Like we are going to find a way to use Bitcoin, custodial or non-custodial, that is inalien- whether somebody punishes it, it is an inalienable right. It is common sense and it's also by necessity to do that because, as has been demonstrated, financial institution failing after financial institution, that, the best way to protect that is on your own and to take agency and accountability. So it's just, it's just like, it's a, it's a gravitational force. Doesn't matter what regulation happened or what not, the regulations will ultimately map to it because it's a force that can't be stopped." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "01:06:03", "start": 3963.75, "text": "Fantastic. and lastly, let's, chat a little bit. I got the chance to, finally get my in-person, my real life copy of Gradually Then Suddenly. So, thank you for that. I b-- and in fact, I bought that on Zaprite as well, so I paid with Lightning, for that. I, you know, generally, I try to earn and spend with Bitcoin and Lightning wherever possible. and, yeah, just give us an update on the book, and, how things" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:06:32", "start": 3992.19, "text": "It was great to finally get it out there in December. I'm sorry, I, I sent the book to Stefan and then it routed back to me, like three months later, but, but just in time, or maybe two months later, but just in time for Bitblock Boom. And then, coincidentally, or not coincidentally, but, serendipitously, I'd write, written a note to Stefan but forgotten to actually sign it. So I was then able to, to sign it and personally deliver it, otherwise I'd just have to, you I didn't have a lot of expectations in it, it was an important project for me to, kind of memorialize or have an artifact that I could physically hand to someone. I think that, you know, one of the reasons why I, I wrote it was because so many people that I had come across in just day-to-day life, going to meetups, being around the Bitcoin circuit, had mentioned to me how valuable it was to them to working through challenging, frameworks to think about Bitcoin, and so that Then, kind of inspired me to, to turn it into a physical book because I think there's certain people that if you send them a link on the internet, they'll read it. the experience of reading something physical is actually better than being on screen, and that I'll be able to reach more people, and that, one of the things that I tried to, to, to do in my writing historically that's then been incorporated in the book is kind of break up Bitcoin into these, not necessarily bite-sized, but, but kind of individual themes, individual frameworks, helping them, Different parts. One, kind of the most fundamental rabbit hole is bottom-up view of Bitcoin as money, but then another on the common misconceptions that I think are particularly helpful to people to understand why it's not too valuable or why it's not too slow or why it's not for criminals, why it can't be banned, why it doesn't waste energy, a-and then also helping them understand the problem. I think, you know, kind of historically, I, my, my career came from the legacy financial industry, I, I think that I have, not necessarily unique, but I have, The legacy banking system to Bitcoin, and oftentimes people think about Bitcoin as a solution in search of a problem, but it's because they don't understand the problem. So, you know, the, the last third of the book is based on really understanding why everyone's gonna have-- or, you know, why the Fed's always gonna have to print money, and, and why that's not a possibility, why it's a certainty, why that actually caused the underlying economic structure to erode and, and functionally why the currency ultimately fails. And so kind of pairing" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:09:02", "start": 4142.21, "text": "In terms of how many books I would sell, I've sold more books than I thought I would. I currently have it exclusively on Safe's website that, you know, realistically probably limits the, the reach from Amazon, but, I'm doing it for, principled reasons that I think that, you know, if the, if the book is good and people find value from it, then they will, they will either gift it or tell their friends where to find it and, that everyone who comes through can pay in Bitcoin and that was important to me too, that, Had the opportunity to pay with the US Treasury or, you know, an a-apple stock or MicroStrategy stock. But here, when you're buying this book, even if you don't wanna pay in Bitcoin, 'cause you can pay in fiat, 'cause the book is intended to help people who don't understand Bitcoin, to, to start to understand it, and they might not have it or know how to send Bitcoin, but it's sitting right there saying, you know- You can pay me in Bitcoin, and that was important. So, yeah, I've been having fun being on the road, going to events, signing books for people. it's been really personally rewarding to get, to get the feedback from people that hadn't yet been into Bitcoin, like, you know, I've had stories of people that, or maybe were, but didn't understand it, didn't, didn't, you know, take the red pill or the orange pill, and kind of came back to it because of the book, hadn't read any of my prior writing. Figured it out and now they're in the process getting their businesses set up to accept Bitcoin as payment, and I think that, that has to be the logical order. People have to first understand Bitcoin and then they start accepting as payment, you know, at a future date when, you know, the, the hyperinflation really takes off, like everyone's just gonna rush out the door at once and start having to demand payment for necessity. But those people that are, that are forward about their actions and take agency, they, they first need to understand it. That's what the book is meant Pardon, I view it, I or I hope that it serves as a perfect complement to things like the Bitcoin Standard, as well as Vijay's bullish case for Bitcoin. I kind of see it as like in my, my journey the bullish case, or bullish case for Bitcoin wasn't yet out, but the Bitcoin standard was I'd met Safe, a few years before he helped me understand what money was before starting that book, and then he was, you know, shared an early draft of that, that unlocked a lot of things for me. I still had to reason through things, and so I view, I view my book as a hyper logically ordered framework for people who need that or kind of whose minds m-might work similar to my own. But Because Bitcoin Click For Me made sense, I, I got it all from, you know, a combination of resources, one of them being the Bitcoin Center, but then trying to enumerate the things that I consistently had to work through in my mind to consistently get back at the conclusion that Bitcoin was money, and so it was that, and then mastering Bitcoin, I try to, you know, kind of provide what I think is a, a place in between those two books to share enough about the technical architecture of Bitcoin to understand how it works, as well as the, the why of why, why sound money is important These of, things that have been historically sound money and, and how it will replace all other currencies. And so, yeah, been hav- been having fun out there, you know, talking to people that bought the book, selling it to people who haven't, and figure out- figuring out ways to get it into more people's hands." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "01:12:19", "start": 4339.55, "text": "Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a, it's a great series, and, you know, I remember it when you were writing the blog series over at Unchained. and, yeah, hope- Hopefully more people get value out of it. so let's finish up here. So remember it's a zaprite dot com, Z A P R I T E. and, you said the safe house as well, that's, yeah, the, the safe house. I'll, we'll put the links all in" }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "01:12:48", "start": 4368.75, "text": "You know, it's time potentially, as you said, maybe this is the beginning of the \"then they fight, fight us\" stage, but it's also time to start pushing back and start, getting more people on our side. So, let's leave it there. Parker, thanks for joining me today." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:13:04", "start": 4384.28, "text": "Hey, thanks for having me back on, Stefan. Always great to catch up." }, { "speaker": "parker_lewis_of_zaprite", "time": "01:13:07", "start": 4387.02, "text": "I hope you enjoyed the chat. Make sure to share this episode and press like and give us a thumbs up if you enjoyed this episode. Thanks, and I'll see you in" } ] }