{ "episodeId": "SLP582", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "nvk_of_coinkite": { "name": "NVK of Coinkite", "role": "guest", "tag": "NVK" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:13", "start": 12.71, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Swan Bitcoin, the best place to buy Bitcoin with zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys. Rejoining me today is my friend NVK from Coinkite. We're gonna be talking about, a big topic recently, which is Bitcoin ossification. So first of all, welcome back to the show. Bitcoin, okay. Hey, man, thanks for having me. So, lots of things going on. I think there's a lot of discussion, it just seems to have been an ongoing discussion, I know you have a lot of thoughts on this area. Maybe it'd be good to just start with kind of defining some of the key terms, right? So, as an example, people throw around this term, ossification. I know you have used this term, gardening. So, can you just define the terms for us? What is ossification and what's gardening mean to you? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "01:00", "start": 59.94, "text": "I Changes, let's call them that, are an eternal September sort of topic, right? They, they'll never go away, right? I mean, it's-- and, and the terms keep on shifting the definition too, right? I, I, I, I think the original ossification sort of, coining of, right? I mean, you can't really fully sort of claim by anyone, but like, you know, in my- Maybe Andres," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:25", "start": 85.02, "text": "yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "01:26", "start": 86.14, "text": "maybe, I don't know. Maybe my view, let's put it this way, is that, You know, it's extreme conservatism, right? Like, you know, like, and, and you could almost say to the point where essentially, like, there may not be new features that are sort of You know, of, of the engineer driven or, sort of requesting, right? So like, y-y-you know, it's, it's always hard to, to define what is a big change or what is a small change or, or what is a frivolous change, or 'cause, you know, like different actors in the market have different, d-different needs and, and different sort of like, demand for things, and, and they may define what ossification of a feature is. For some people- Changing standardness, right? So for example, a mempool, setting, right? The mempool, default, you know, may be a big deal for, for, for many or most, it isn't, right? And we've seen this with the four B F Right? so it, it, it is very, it's almost indefinable. So like, I think maybe, maybe it's time we move on from that term and we just call it, you know, like, I'm an extreme conservativist on On, on changes to Bitcoin, right? a-and, and I think that's a better, mental framework than ossification, because ossification could mean nothing changes, which is impossible, right? That gets us to gardening, and I like gardening as well, right? within extreme conservatism, you still need to do gardening, right? W-we need, we need to, we need to improve the code, we need to, you know, improve the P2P, communication, right? We just added encryption and, and like other means to, to obfuscate, some of the data. You know, those are not necessarily consensus changing rules, and, and I think maybe- When, when people get crunchy and grumpy about lucification or non-lucification, it really comes down to more like, consensus rules." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "03:36", "start": 216.38, "text": "But reality is like, it's very unlikely Bitcoin will remain without any changes in the consensus forever, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:45", "start": 225.04, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "03:46", "start": 225.78, "text": "But I, I do think the bigger we get" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "03:51", "start": 231.09, "text": "you're gonna have way more actors pulling Bitcoin in different directions, right? Like people with different needs, different wants. There, there is no wrong path for Bitcoin It, it really isn't, right? Like, I, I mean, Bitcoin is what the market wants Bitcoin to be, right? And, and it seems that, y-you know, Satoshi really intended that Bitcoin be this, you know, hedge against central banks or, or be like a, a central bank replacement, right? with a sprinkle of payments around, which makes the whole thing very confusing to everybody, right? and under the current set of rules that we have on Bitcoin, we- Which have been debated forever since the beginning of times. you know, payments in Bitcoin, they just don't scale, right? It's, it's just, it's a clearing house for, for stuff that we wanna do. Sure, right now we can still buy coffee, buy cold cards on my store or whatever, right? Like with, with Bitcoin. And but, but realistically speaking, you know, like once we have a ten x, hundred x sort of increase in user, you know, in user space, like it's not, it's not It's not gonna be possible. Why am I taking this tangent? You know, and, and sort of like not going more into the-- Because, you know, this is the biggest debate, right? I, I, it's like it's the debate that never went away and will never go away. Is Bitcoin a medium of exchange or is Bitcoin a store of value? You know, I'd argue it's both, right? It just depends on what zoom level and economic capacity you're in, right? And then almost all the more serious conversa- Discussions about soft forks are to address this, this, this, tug-of-war dynamic of preference, right? Like, you know, can we do covenants so we can have shared UTXOs? Can you do this? Can you do that? Right? To find scale in the payment part or to find, sort of like other improvements that may indirectly affect scalability as well, you know, in, in some privacy and-- but, you know, privacy in Bitcoin is, is complicated topic, but," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:01", "start": 360.84, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "06:01", "start": 361.2, "text": "But anyways, so that's sort of like the big roundabout." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:04", "start": 364.48, "text": "Yeah. And I think you touched on this as well, because a lot of the online conversation sort of seems to be, there might be a person who really wants a particular change, and then they start accusing other people of being an ossifier. And nowadays, I'm not sure there are actually explicit ossifiers, but it seems that they-- You know, where are the ossifiers? Are they in the room with us right now, right? When will it be conservative? There," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "06:26", "start": 385.89, "text": "there, there are, I, I'd say like there are a few, they, they aren't too many, but there are a few, and, and some of them do have big voices, but, but you know, but they're not coming from like a, a bad, like place, you know? They're just like, listen You know, there is nothing on the shit that you guys are offering to us in terms of like proposals that are like, that, that, that, that like, when I calculate my opportunity cost, right? Like, it's, it's like interesting enough for me to risk the network, right? Like, with any big change, there is risk to the network, and it's not just risk of like, oh, you know, it could break like a thing on the code, right? Like, that, that we can fix, like, you know, we've done that before in, in Bitcoin It was something else or whatever, right? Like SegWit had an issue, you know, that had to be fixed. I, I can't like remember the specifics now. we had to revert, Gavin's, OPPOV, you know, there, there's been issues like, I mean, P2SH, which gives us, mul- multi-sig, like the, the current state of multi-sig, was super contentious. so, so like- You know, like, it's understandable, right? Like, I, I mean, you know, you could make the case, right, that we got here, right? Like, with the set of rules that we have, we got here, right? Like, you know, you could argue that some weren't as good, some were better, and, and, you know, some were kind of a mistake, some were just engineers sort of pushing things they want without a specific use case, you know, like so, for the Taproot, right? Like, I mean, you know, There was no explicit sort of thing, and, and so far we haven't seen much being done with it. I mean, people are working on it, it's very complex, and there's a lot of cool shit you can do with it. But you could, you could also make the, the, the steel man caves for the aspirers that say, \"You know what? Like, we could have lived without it, right?\" a-and, you know, I don't think the JPEG people caused as much damage as people think. I also don't think that, y-you know we have any say or, or like how we can prevent any of the shit? Like, y-you know, like, some people think it's a bug, some people, you know, whatever. Like, people have different opinions, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:48", "start": 528.03, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "08:49", "start": 528.61, "text": "but anyway, so it's important to remind these little examples because, like, that's the things that create the contention and, you know, bring up the, the, the heat of the conversation, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:01", "start": 540.68, "text": "Yeah. So let me give you this example just to kind of get your view. So there are certain long-standing bugs Bitcoin, and these are kind of known amongst the developers. So as an example, there's this time warp bug, and there's a well-known bug around if you-- if people can maliciously craft a transaction to kind of take down people's nodes. Now, Macarello, I think five years ago, proposed this idea known as the Great Consensus Cleanup. There's another guy, Antoine Ponceau, who I'm, I'm sure you probably know, he's working on some of that idea. Now, this isn't an upgrade to Bitcoin, but it is a bug fix, right? And You know, and it's not an upgrade, so theoretically, in your view, do you think that would not be so controversial, right? Like we should theoretically be able to come to agreement to fix that bug, right?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "09:46", "start": 586.17, "text": "I mean, engineers have a terrible, often tendency to create really bad marketing around ideas. As soon as you use the words \"the great consensus cleanup\" or \"the great something\" or \"the big whatever,\" right? Like, you literally turn everybody's sort of like immediate knee-jerk reaction on, right? I, I really think it's a terrible way of galvanizing, the, the, the economy Economic nodes that may be engineers, may not be engineers, right? Like, I, I, I don't think it's a, I, I think it's a great list, like, it, it really is a fantastic list. We should fix all those things, right? But I don't think The, the narrative or marketing behind it is, is, is well-intended. I, I don't think it will cause the, the, the expected outcome. But," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:40", "start": 640.39, "text": "okay, but let's hypothetical, let's assume you could rebrand it. Let's assume you could rebrand it to something that was, you know, more palatable. In terms of the actual substance of it, it sounds like you would, you know, hypothetically, if, you know, people were kind of talking about it and saying, \"Yeah, we're, we're keen for this,\" like you'd be, you think that would be, people" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "10:59", "start": 659.16, "text": "would go with that? You know, here's the thing, right? Like Bitcoin is absolute ginormous, right? The cold base, everything's really big, and everything affects everything, right? So like at a first glance, like, I look at some of that list, I go like, \"Yeah, Or say like, \"No, oh no, we don't want that, right? Like, and, and, and, and this is why I don't want this ominous bills. I don't like this idea of like just packaging everything together, especially in a complex system like this. I think what we should really be looking at is like, hey, listen, you know, here's two hundred things that like, you know, the people who work day in and day out on Bitcoin think should be fixed, right? You know, and start making PRs. You don't need anybody's permission.\" Like, right, but this, as" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:48", "start": 707.79, "text": "I understand, these, some of these are actually consensus related, so it's not just- Sure, yeah. You know," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "11:52", "start": 711.82, "text": "yeah, yeah, but make the PRs. Like, I, I, this, the pre-talking causes almost more drama Then the actual, like, you know, possible merge or non-merge? I, I, I would say like, you know, in the pre-announcement. It's not good, right? Because like, you know, there is no code to be reviewed, right? So to be assessed. the, the most people don't understand how Bitcoin works. Nobody knows, like, how all Bitcoin works at all times, right? Nobody knows the hundred percent of code base anymore, right? So, so like, it's, it's, it's not a good path. Like, what you want is like make PR, people like PR, people don't like the PR, PR PR, don't merge this PR, don't merge. Like, you know, like let's, let's go back to grub brain engineering. You know, keep it very simple and stupid, don't create like a lot of fuss around things, you know? Because you attract the people who just have opinions, but they have like very little skin in the game, they have very little technical capacity of reviewing things, y-you know, like just, you know, you go under the radar of, of the people not paying attention, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:10", "start": 790.27, "text": "Yeah, so but then, but then the thing, yeah, and I mean, I, I certainly there's parts of that I agree with, but I think the concern would just be, oh, you're just trying to slip this past people, right? Like you're not trying to let them know exactly what you're doing. And she's doing that all the time. That's" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "13:26", "start": 805.85, "text": "how all software is made and like, the, the problem is, you know, non-engineers often get very offended by engineers. Right. W- but I, I think it's like a self-esteem issue on the non-engineer side. It's like because they can't express their preference in code, right? Like, and, and sort of like, you know, affect change that way, right? They'll go scream at the void, right? That doesn't really help anything, right? Like, so like the alternative is hire an engineer, right? Like, I, I mean, like, you know, if you wanna fix things, change things, or move things in your direction, I mean, we always talked about this Every company should have a couple Bitcoin core devs that like, that like, you know, fix the bugs that are good for them. Like, you know, it's, it's a demand-based engineering, right? Like a, a market-based engineering, like it's the best kind of engineering, right? Like you have people fixing problems, and then you have, like, you know, like Davs that are more like gardeners, right? Like, what was his name? Oreo. Orion. Or no, the, the guy who used to be, maintainer for Core for so many years from all of- Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:43", "start": 883.19, "text": "Vlad, Vladimir, like Orion W L, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "14:46", "start": 886.11, "text": "right. Yeah, Vladimir. So like you have guys like that who, like, man, like, you know, they, they, they do the excruciating sort of like, work and path of not having an opinion. Right? Because they, they understand how important it is for you as like a, a, a quote unquote official core maintainer, right? To not have an opinion. Like, like not, not like a, you know, you can have an opinion about that specific piece of code, right? But like, they, they try to remain neutral and, and, and like, and use more a scientific approach to the merge, right? Like, you know, what is it that you're trying to achieve, right? Does it do that? Does it cause side effects? And sort of like, go" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "15:30", "start": 929.52, "text": "Groups of devs, like you need, you know, open source sort of like funded, like non, non, ideally self economically funded, so you're not even asking for money from, you know, like, open sets or whatever, but then open sets is there to help, right? Who, who do Like very neutral sort of like research and review, right? and then you have like, you know, other actors that are like, you know, like wearing the company T-shirt, right? And they're like great core devs too, that like go, like, you know what, like We think this is great, y-you know, and yes, it's like, it will advance my company's mission, too. Like, there's, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Like, it's a, it's a commonest thing, you know, like to say that, like, \"Oh, oh, because that company wants something, like they're for evil,\" like, or no, it's, it's, you know, it, it, that's like, that's how they see technology developing, right? Like, and they may want that change, and, you know Forever, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:38", "start": 997.97, "text": "Yeah. And so look at" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "16:39", "start": 998.99, "text": "Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:40", "start": 1000.41, "text": "Right. And so looking to other changes that actually do bring some form of upgrade, you know, this is where, you know, maybe that's more controversial or that's more like, there's more discussion about maybe is it gonna cause some kind of negative impact to other people, to non-users of the thing? Maybe that's where, maybe there's more community debate, let's say, about particular proposals. And to be clear, this is maybe, maybe amongst more like developers who really know what they're- Arguing about, as opposed to just kind of random, you know, people shouting from the sidelines, let's say. so how should these changes be assessed or how should they be argued about in your view?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "17:20", "start": 1040.13, "text": "I, I, I don't-- there is no, there is no formula, okay? I, I think, I think we need to, to understand first that like Bitcoin is voluntary and anarchic in nature, right? And it has plutocratic tendencies. Right? So like, you know, the bigger the economic node, like you're gonna have way more power in the network than, you know, a node with less, right? Like it's, again, not an equal democracy in any way, right? So, so, you know, like And Bitcoin is politics. Like, i-i-Bitcoin is fully political because it's people, right? And people are political and they have preferences, and what is politics? It's just you trying to express your preferences and get people to rally behind your preferences, right? a-and You know, so, so like people need to understand that like you have essentially like a lot of spectrum people who write code, right? Who don't like talking to people, right? They just wanna write the code, right? But, but that is tricky because if you write the code and you don't talk to people, people aren't gonna wanna use your code, and they might make your life miserable too, right? You know, when people say, you know, they're burnt out of working on core or whatever, that, well, that's because of lack of talking to people. you know, but also the people who don't write the code need to understand that there's people who write the code, who actually do the work, and don't wanna talk to you. Right? A-and-and they, they aren't obligated to listen to you either. Right? So, i-it's, i-it's a dance, like it's never gonna change. Like, i-if anything, it's only gonna become worse, more contentious and messier, which is a good thing, right? Like, if you have a very organized system, you find ways to game it much faster." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:00", "start": 1140.03, "text": "Right. Right. So people have said like, \"Gridlock is good, it's kind of like, it should be hard to make changes to Bitcoin.\" Yeah. but that said, I mean, are there changes that you're interested in? Like, I know we've spoken a bit about Vault as an example, some people are interested in like CTV, and then kind of weigh out these kind of other ideas of like, \"Hey, let's reimagine,\" or \"Let's kind of really make a big wholesale change with something like Great Script Restoration.\" So I'm curious if you" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "19:29", "start": 1168.56, "text": "Yeah, so like I, I always go back to this idea that like, you know, like there were a lot of educators that had the heart in the right place but didn't understand technically a lot, even though they're perceived as people who understand a lot technically speaking Bitcoin. And they always said, you know, like, \"That all the poor people in the world are gonna have Bitcoin.\" Right? Like, a-and that's a lie. Like, you know, like I-I've, I've made this math before, and, you know, it's like you have two quadrillion satoshis, right? Like, if, if one percent of the population, which is a hundred x improvement from right now, of, like, that has, have all the wealth, right? So right now is the basis point in the world, right? So if you move to one percent, it's a hundred x improvement in humanity, right? And, and if one percent of the people have, Seventy-two dollars available in Sats at today's price for everybody else in the world, right? It's pointless, right? I mean, like it's not constructive framework, right? And, and, and Bitcoin as is, right? Like as, with the intent of being a central bank replacement, right? Like, we don't have a way, right, of scaling further. I mean, who knows, maybe we divide Satoshi's further, but that, that's gonna cause all kinds of other-- It's, it's very complicated change. I don't even know if it's possible. But, you know, we do need more division if we want everybody to hold a UTXO, like there is no other option, right? Lightning does give us more division which is nice. however, you still have to go back and, a-and, and like, the way you clear is through, you know, the block space, right? Lightning. So you're still bound by block space limit. So you have two bottlenecks in Bitcoin, right? You have the divisibility bottleneck and you're gonna have the block size bottleneck, right? So throughput is greatly affected, and units in the market for you to hold are affected too. so anyway, so- So the, the point is like we have to figure out like, w-where do we wanna take this, right? Like, I, you know, I'm perfectly fine with one path, which, you know, Bitcoin is essentially BIS, and you have large Free banking entities, and you have, you know, and w- like, and when people like say banking is bad, like that's, that's like very sort of infantile like view of banking, right? Like, it's, yeah, we have like extremely crony banking now, right? Like it's, it's all horrible, but that's because the money is horrible, right? people need credit, they, you need trade credit, you need all these things. But, anyways. The point is, like, you know, we have things that are like, that, that can be pegged back to Bitcoin or not, like, like eCash, right? And you can use those as the means on how you scale, right? Some will be IOUs, some will be maybe, you know, a carafuffle of like, you know, like some contract or whatever. Like, things are gonna get very messy and even more complicated, right? That's how-- there is a reason why the financial system is the way it is now. Right? It's because the market finds efficiencies by adding these complications, right? and, and we have a very shitty money that, you know, causes even further problems. But, but anyways, the-- So, so anyways, the, the, the point is, If, if we, if we want people to, to have, like good sound money, right? We can't, we can't destroy Bitcoin, right? Like we, we have to be very, very, very, very careful with what we have. We already have the best money on earth, right? Like it's, it's amazing, right? So, you know, I personally, right? Like want something like A type of governance that would enable, not because I wanted to enable a bunch of stuff, I, I don't, I'm not into this whole massive design space thing, because that, opens more for more problems, right? I prefer like, you know, I want vaults, right? And what do we need to make vaults work add to the pile? Right? And make, make it like so it's a version of that thing that we need extra, but the most sort of narrow version of that. Right? So, so then we have Vault. Great. We can now let, like, entities store coins safely on chain. Right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:46", "start": 1425.95, "text": "Yeah. And interestingly, just while we're here, I think it's interesting because I guess that also helps explain why you're interested in that, because as you said, your view of Bitcoin is that it's gonna be high net worth people and large institutions, and it's gonna- Be basically that top one percent, and for those people, they really care about having op, something like OpVault, right? So I guess that's kind of why your, for you, Vault is an interesting-" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "24:09", "start": 1448.63, "text": "Exactly, like, and it's a very clear, like, listen, I've been doing Bitcoin like safeguarding for people for, you know, fifteen years, right? Like that's, that's all we do as Coinkite, right? I mean, we used to, to be BigO before BigO, we did the multisig thing, then we had hardware wallets because we wanted This is the path, because like I need that for myself too, right? It's a very sort of like, a selfish motive, right, in that sense. A-and I, and I know there's a lot of people who, and entities who need those solutions, right? now There is a lot of people who want to do like, you know, buy coffee on Bitcoin, right? Like, I have a lot of fun buying coffee on Bitcoin. Like, you know, I love the Zaps I love like the Noster Zaps, right? Like I, I like, like, you know, receiving payments for Unleash Dot Chat in, in Lightning payments. You know, like I love receiving Bitcoin for cold cards in our store, right? Like, I, I like the payments aspect, it's just that, like, I understand it has a due date, right? It has a, it, it has a, it's gonna hit, it's gonna, it's gonna hit a wall, right? So, and this is part of the reason why I haven't Right? It's because like Lightning isn't ready, like it's just I can't do inbound volume, the volume I need for payments, y-y-you know, with Lightning at the moment. Like it's just not possible, they have to tie up too much Bitcoin for that. and then there's risk, and then you have to, it's complicated and all this stuff. Anyways, the, the point is-- Actually, well, just on that, I'm curious," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:43", "start": 1543.3, "text": "like, we should chat a little bit about that because as an example, I mean, you could- Let's say have like a big channel, and you're periodically, you know, flushing some of that out to chain, right? And that could theoretically at least save some transaction fees, couldn't it? Or, you know, yeah, so here's the problem, right?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "26:00", "start": 1560.2, "text": "Like Should I be a company that make hardware wallets or should I be a company that, like, now is baby, has a whole team to baby a, a shopping cart implementation that handles Lightning for ten percent of the people who are gonna use it?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:15", "start": 1574.66, "text": "I see. But even then, I mean, you could use like, again, if we're okay with retail banking, you could use a custodial provider like, you know, like an OpenNode or an Abex or some- Oh yeah, no, and I look into that. You know? Right?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "26:24", "start": 1584.43, "text": "So, so, you know, one thing" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:29", "start": 1589.47, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "26:30", "start": 1589.89, "text": "Okay, because like our store seven years, eight years of time now probably, the server, right? And, and it just works. That's why we haven't even upgraded to SegWit, right? Like So we have a thing that we know works, is safe and secure, right? And, and that's also secure for customer information. This is a slew of things that we're trying to protect here, right? Like not just our subs. so we built that in-house, but there is a limit on people resources that can put towards that, right? And then the alternative is, you know, like for example, for, for credit cards, we use a credit card provider. Right? But the credit card provider requires way less KYC and way less bullshit than the, than the, the, the Bitcoin like lightning solution that does payment. And it's cheaper too. Okay, the, the credit card company's charging me less than the lightning companies want, half the time. So like, it's just the, the market, the market offerings are just simply not there. Like, and I'm, and I'm a, like a, like a real customer for this products, right? Like, i-it's not just sort of like, \"Oh, you know, I wanna sell some t-shirts.\" No, like, you know, we have like a, a real, reasonably sized business that would put some volume through them, right? the same way we do the, the credit card company, just one of the docs we use, but like," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:45", "start": 1665.19, "text": "you know," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "27:46", "start": 1665.77, "text": "it's like, it's like one of the, the big ones, right? A-and like, It's because it's understandable, right? Like Bitcoin for payments isn't quite there, and the, the market, it's-- we're still early, so we're still in the, in the, in the," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "28:10", "start": 1689.64, "text": "And, what's the word?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "28:14", "start": 1694.24, "text": "we're still, aggregating sets. We're still like, You know, earning and storing satoshis, like it, it, it's, it's, it's that moment still in Bitcoin. People are still buying to store value, right? A-a-and so the market is focused on that. The market is focused on custody, on, on very good, like, fast sale of satoshis at the, like, a very competitive market, right, for you to buy Bitcoin from. There's a million providers. So, so that's where the market is at, right? So, we, we still have years to go before, you know, we have that. And maybe we bypass it, right? Like it's very common. So, for example, in America, they, they never really had chip and pin. They went from, from like credit card going on the, on the magnetic all the way to just tap. Right? Like it was a very brief moment that they had with the chip and pin, while everybody else had chip and pin for ten years. they, they were still just a few places had it, right? So it's normal to, to just leapfrog technology, right? So, so maybe like Lightning gets leapfrogged because it's not gonna be efficient enough, at least, you know, for, for retail. a-and then there is something else which I think is gonna end up happening is we're gonna have either an L3 or a clever L2 that's gonna Not, not for you to clear, because remember, Lightning original sort of ideas were about clearing things, right? Not, not necessarily for people to, like, you know, feed chickens. So, so anyway, so I, I really think we're gonna end up having something like, 'cause the more people, the more, the more demand we have, the more solutions will sprung up, right? Like we're gonna have more demand, demand-based engineering. Like, i-i-it's, it's, it's bound to happen that something comes up. I mean, the- Both, both Cashu and Fatty are like really moving fast, right? I mean, especially Cashu, like it's amazing the amount of stuff that there is out there already for it. You know, it comes with trade-offs, right? I mean, there's a lot of rugging that can happen, but there's also this idea of million mints, right? Where you can have, you know, you can de-risk yourself by having, you know, one million mints each with like, you know, a cent in it worth of Sats, and then you can just aggregate them all Right? and, and people are building on that. we're trying to move the risk to the edges, right? And, and the-- because, you know, everything else in the middle is gonna get captured, right? So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:41", "start": 1840.76, "text": "yeah. Okay. So yeah, so as you said, so kind of bringing it back, I think, a-and to your point earlier, I think it does come down to maybe some early proponents of Bitcoin spoke about it in this kind of anti-retail banking way. Now, I've also gone back and forth, you, you know, in terms of, I've argued with some of those people saying, \"No, I think it's about challenging central banks.\" I, I don't necessarily have an opposition to retail banking if we're on a Bitcoin, in a Bitcoinized world, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:10", "start": 1869.66, "text": "Reference in the viewpoint, right? Because there are some people who are like, \"No, unless all eight billion can self-custody, we've failed,\" or so-something like this, or maybe, maybe just- I think it's people just," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "31:19", "start": 1879.37, "text": "people just don't like spend a minute trying to actually do the math, just, just like super basic back-of-the-napkin math, just, just do like, you know, division and multiplication of, of the Bitcoin like variables, right? Like, this is the amount of units in the system, this is the amount of money, like," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "31:40", "start": 1899.68, "text": "Vision and like, find, find like some, some numbers to drive your, your framework, right? Because the numbers just don't add up." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:47", "start": 1907.17, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by Coinkite dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices, such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words. On those, the seed word cards and keep that secure. Now you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Vector Desktop or Nunchuk as a few examples. Now you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices such as passphrase, you can use seed x or my favorite is multi-signature. Now if you're starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. 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And you can do this while you're standing next to them, they can click through, and most of them will be able to set up and do this in just a few minutes. Also, the team at Swan have rolled out a new promotion, there are zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys. So this is a great way to go from zero to Bitcoin and in a guided and managed way. So reminder, go to your App Store or Play Store and search \"Swan Bitcoin\" to get onboarded with Bitcoin today. This show also brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I use it all the time when I'm checking transaction fees and trying to understand what is the state of Bitcoin's mempool. You can search transactions, historical as well as unconfirmed ones, and also see a great way to visualize things across the Lightning Network, Liquid, mining, and so much more. Also, for those of you with an enterprise, they offer a mempool dot space enterprise program. So for those of you as Part of that enterprise program, you might wanna get increased API limits, and you might wanna have increased access to the team in terms of feature requests. You might wanna have special branding in terms of how your custom instance of mempool dot space looks. So to sign up for that, go to mempool dot space slash enterprise. And now, back to the show. Yeah, and I think that's fair. I think it's fair to say it's probably gonna be something like, people have thrown around this number somewhere between ten to a hundred million users in terms of Non-custodial people who can really, who can realistically use it, and you said as one percent of the world, right? One percent, let's say eight billion, one percent, eighty million, which is, you know, fair enough. so, you know, but I think it's important to point out that the alternative is the one node of the US Federal Reserve, right? That is the alternative, right? Like you got one node. That's the competition, like-- Or we could have a world with tens of millions of Bitcoin and Lightning users." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "35:31", "start": 2130.78, "text": "I, I think, I think there's a lot of like utopic type thinking, right? Like, Bitcoin's not perfect. It's, it's just a, like a thousandx improvement over what we have. But it's not like maybe something else comes, you know, and supersedes it in like, you know, a thousand years from now, right? Like, whatever, like it's gonna happen, like nothing is forever. and, you know, right now what we have is like, you know, you have the USD. It's USD, the whole world is USD. Everything is USD. You think you have your country shitcoin, you don't, it's USD. Okay? Like, because every commodity is priced in USD. Every trade on the commodity is priced in USD. Every trade Everything, the foreign debt of your country is USD, the foreign debt of the country you're buying the shit from is in USD. Like, there is only USD in the world. Like, this is like the biggest sort of like lie that people don't get, is that these, these last fifty years, like everything got dollarized, right? Like, the euro is USD. You know? Like, they may be like, maybe it's like what, eighty percent of the euro is USD. but it's still mostly USD plus risk, right? That's why people prefer USD. If you ask" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "36:41", "start": 2200.77, "text": "For to have in their pocket, let's say USD, not gold, USD, right? they, they are the best shitcoin. Like when people talk about shitcoins have a function, like USD is the best shitcoin. And, and like, and we finally have something that, that offers an alternative to that, which is like, it's mind melting, right, to, to like, to have a thing that, that could replace that and, and like, you know, again, like, so being ultra conservative and trying to keep this going for that purpose, it's, it's, it's a reasonable path. Is it the correct path? There's no correct path. so, so anyway, so we, we, but we do need some, some medium of exchange. It's just at what level, right? What economic size level are we talking about for that medium of exchange?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:29", "start": 2248.52, "text": "Yeah. So the other thing that's obviously come up in recent months is BitVM. There's been some discussion about this idea of, you know, can it enable some kind of bridge to a side chain in a way that wasn't possible before or some of these concepts? I'm curious If you see much there, do you think they will realistically enable much there, or is it more just like you're waiting and seeing what's possible?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "37:52", "start": 2272.24, "text": "Yeah, so, so like this again, like this is in, like, I, I don't think it works, because the, the problem is like all these solutions, like similar to that one, what they do is they try to create this extremely convoluted multi-sig schemas really to, to essentially compensate for the fact that you don't have on-chain covenants, right? So you essentially create covenants where there isn't, right? Through multi-sig complexity, right? So, and, and this, what these things do is they just move the problem somewhere else, and then they can't fix the problem, right? Because it's still a fundamental problem. So they just don't work, you know, and every time, you know, people try to implement some bitVM thing, it breaks, right? Like it's just-- That's why it just never goes anywhere. I-, it's because it just doesn't work, right? So what, what the shitcoiners are starting to sort of realize is that like their chains are dying, right? Like Ethereum is dying, all these things are dying, right? a-and these are like real market participants. I'm not talking about the actual scammer, scammer crowd, right? Like You know, whatever smart contract for their financialized thing, right? Like, you know, we can argue from our conservative sort of like libertarian, not, not libertarian, but like conservative sort of Austrian economics sort of view of this thing, the, you know, the noise of it, but reality is there's a market, right? There's a ginormous market for financialized thing, right? Stable coins, like stable, like debt, like all kinds of things, right? Like leverage things, you know, trading stock things, Anyways, so, so what they're starting to realize that their chains are dying, and, and they want to sort of like couple on, like, on Bitcoin, maybe because Bitcoin is solid and is going somewhere, right? the smart ones understand that you shouldn't change Bitcoin to accomplish their goals because then it's gonna break Bitcoin. Right. So let's, let's take those because I can respect that view, right? So, so what they're trying to do is they're starting to create this sort of like, middle paths Right? In between Bitcoin, Bitcoin is UTXO based, all their contract shenanigans, insanity of, of EVMS are, are like all accounts based, right? So, so, you know, they, they create their convoluted federations of things and they make the assets go in and out and they use Bitcoin's proofs. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, and, and, you know, it creates demand for Bitcoin, right? Because then, you know, people need to use Bitcoin as the unit of account and the unit of exchange of those systems, right? And we Prevent that. Like, people who try to like prevent those things, just, you know, you're pissing in the wind. Like, you know, Bitcoin is permissionless on purpose, so people are gonna do that. And, and back in the early days, you know, everybody who was like, would be considered a Maxi now, was, you know, trying to create assets on Bitcoin, like, you know, RGB, OmniCoin, this and that. There were a million of them. because again, there is demand for, for trading assets, right? Like, for, like, you know, I can see a world where, you know, like, you don't ask for permission to list your company. It's still a centralized company, and you should disclose all your, your risks, right? Because that's the ethical thing to do. But, you know, capitalizing your company through shareholders is a very worthy thing to do, and if you can do that with some token, then great. the problem is it's all done for pump and dump scams and, you know, on chains that claim things that they don't do. so like these things will come to Bitcoin because they were here before. So if you're new, very new Maxi, okay, like again, you're really, really in for a rude awakening. Like all this stuff were being done in Bitcoin before. It's just it wasn't efficient enough, but, and, and the market took it somewhere else. But it will come back because you can't prevent it" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:55", "start": 2515.36, "text": "Yeah, and I think that's a fair warning. I think, you know, in years gone by, obviously you've been around longer than me, but even in my time, starting in 2013, I, I remember seeing stuff like counterparty, colored coins. You know, these ideas have been around. It's just that, you know, we've gone through cycles, right? Now, now it's maybe coming back now as like Taproot assets, as an example, or it's coming back as RGB or different forms." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "42:18", "start": 2538.27, "text": "I mean, look at the, the most famous" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "42:24", "start": 2544.02, "text": "So Tether, this stablecoin based on, used to be based on like a million kinds of like assets and all kinds of shit. On Bitcoin, they started, yeah, yes. They started on Bitcoin through Omni layer, right? Which is a colored coin kind of thing, and, you know, the throughput wasn't there, right? So, so they moved to, to something else and then Eevee, I think. and then they were on Ethereum, and Ethereum is shit, so it, it has essentially-- No, it's centralized and it's inefficient Efficient. So, so they moved that to Solana, which is fully centralized, so therefore efficient, right? And they don't care because they don't care about the transaction, it doesn't really matter, because" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:05", "start": 2585.04, "text": "they're kind of chain agnostic, right? Yes." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "43:07", "start": 2587.22, "text": "Yes. But, but you know, like, I, I know they've tried to put their stuff on Liquid, and they tried to put that stuff on Lightning as well, right? I think it just didn't work because, again, you go back to the throughput problems with Bitcoin. So, but, but I, It's a time thing, people just need time to, to, to learn those lessons and to explore the limits of things, and then also to be honest about the trade-offs of, of solutions, right? Like You know, because it's easy to promise all these things, and then when people actually try to use it, they start bumping into things, and, you know, like we know Tether is fully centralized, right? They, they, they're very proud of how much transactions they cancel, right, on request." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "43:53", "start": 2632.62, "text": "But it's a lot better for people. They have b-- norm, like people in third world countries have more access to tether than they do to the standard dollar through the legacy system, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:01", "start": 2641.28, "text": "Right. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "44:02", "start": 2641.8, "text": "So there's a market" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:04", "start": 2643.94, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, and I don't begrudge them that, right? Like I, I've said many times, like, \"Let he who has no USD bank account cast the first stone,\" right? Like, I'm not gonna shit on stablecoin users. I, I don't blame them, right? obviously Bitcoin is best, and, you know, I, you know, I would only advocate Bitcoin, but I don't have a big issue with people using that thing. You know," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "44:23", "start": 2663.4, "text": "how is a person that doesn't have money- Going to save money or, or store value money. Like, how are they gonna survive Bitcoin volatility if they already don't have money, right? Like, Bitcoin is great for people that have money. Like, you, you, you, you can't, like, if you're living on, on like, you know, a hundred and ten percent of your income per month, right? Like, you don't have room in the calculation to survive Bitcoin volatility, right? And, and, and, and, and to store your wealth in it, because you can get to the end of the month and it's half that much. Right? You know, should you find a path to put a little bit in Bitcoin and grow your, you know, ab- absolutely. Like every poor person in the universe would love to fucking save and get out of poverty. Like that, that's not like you didn't invent that crypto person. You know, like that's the normal sentiment, right? I-i-it's just that like, you know, we have to slowly create the tools to make it accessible to them, right? That's why I like the eCash story so much, right? It-it's solving a problem. because it, it, it bridges that gap." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:29", "start": 2729.43, "text": "Yeah, perhaps a low cost onboarding, and a way to kind of start with this, and then later, if you do manage to save up enough, okay, now you can go on chain and have a lightning channel or whatever, choose your trust model, right? yeah. So one other area that's kind of coming up as part of some of these discussions, now as, as we've kind of spoken about, you're coming from the, let's say, conservatism camp, but there are people sort of I mean, people are gonna find a way, they're gonna bring MEV to Bitcoin, so you should embrace it, and we should kind of make these tools to do it in a, you know, more-- Now, this is more like a Bitcoin progressive argument to be clear, right? This is kind of, yeah. But I'm curious to get your, your reaction on that, or is it more just-- Yeah, I understand. Would you just more say like, \"No, we're just a bunch of conservatives here, and we may not necessarily agree to add all these extra opcodes or do" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "46:21", "start": 2781.46, "text": "I, I think we have to be careful with this idea that, like, we're conservatives and we're guardians of Bitcoin and we're somehow on a, on like a pedestal and somehow our opinion matters more or whatever. Like, that, that's, that's how you get killed. You know what I mean? That's how your opponent takes you out. Like, that, that kind of, it's, it's, it's not a good, like, place to be in. it's complacency, right? Like, it's like, you know, it's a pure ego-driven" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:51", "start": 2810.52, "text": "It was more like, you don't know, I know, I know, I don't know, no, no, but, but that is how people feel. People feel like," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "46:55", "start": 2815.18, "text": "you can see that on Twitter, like, \"Not on my chain, it's not your chain.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:00", "start": 2819.55, "text": "Right. That's a good point. That's a fair point." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "47:02", "start": 2822.05, "text": "You know, really, like, you know, a lot of the conversation is founded on, on those sort of like pre, predispositions there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:10", "start": 2829.6, "text": "Yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "47:12", "start": 2831.78, "text": "a-anyway, so, so like, first of all, it's not your chain, it's not my chain, it's not our chain, right? Like, so, so like, you know, economic actors will seek economic incentives, right? So, so like, thankfully Bitcoin does have some great feedback loops, right? So if you do something stupid in Bitcoin, people sell their Bitcoin because it looks stupid, therefore chain goes to zero, right? Like, there's a lot of that dynamic that goes on, right? Like, if somebody forks Bitcoin to add, you know, like some So being seen anything that could break Bitcoin, you know, economic actors are gonna likely dump that fork, right? And that's, that's how you clear the stuff. But there's also the opposite is true, right? I mean, like, you could have a, an extremely successful campaign to add a feature to Bitcoin, right? That convinces the majority of the economic actors, convinces the majority of the miners, right? And like And you might just have to, to eat that L. You know, it's, it's, it's not impossible. It'll be very hard, right? Because again, the incentives on Bitcoin, the, that inertia It's a, and it's like a hard gravitational, like driven inertia there, right? Like, they're like very hard to steer that ship to a direction that isn't store value Right? Like, you may add other things, and, and the way I like to define is like, you know, every single aspect of Bitcoin serves the pleasure of store of value. Right? So if you go look at the little nuances of Bitcoin, all the little intricacies of it, at, at the end of the day, it's just trying to make the incentive be so that the value is stored and you're not debased. Right? Yeah. including the anti-censorship capacity of you doing medium of exchange, right? Being able to exchange Bitcoin defends Bitcoin's store of value, right? Because if you can't exchange it, if it's not salable, it's not a good store of value, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:04", "start": 2943.61, "text": "Right." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "49:05", "start": 2945.41, "text": "So, so that, that's, that's why we have anti-censorship. It's not because, you know, the, the, the Bitcoin paper said that, like, you know, you deserve to buy a thing that is illegal. I-, it's just because, like, you need that, you need that dynamic in order to have the store of value, right? Like, and then you get for free this wonderful thing that, like, people can't prevent you from buying things you're not allowed to." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:29", "start": 2969.29, "text": "Yeah, I think that's totally fair, and I would say it's objectively true that the most popular use of Bitcoin is hodling, right? Like if you look at hodlways or if you look at the number of people who haven't moved to coins in six months or one year or two years or three years, that's-- it's a huge number compared to the number of coins that are actually circulating. So I think that's objectively true." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "49:51", "start": 2990.79, "text": "That, that's how money works, right? Like, you know, good money doesn't get spent, bad money gets spent. Right? Like, I forgot the, what's the name again?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:02", "start": 3001.52, "text": "So you're thinking of Gresham's Law," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "50:03", "start": 3002.7, "text": "but to be clear, yeah, Gresham's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:04", "start": 3003.84, "text": "Law has a specific application, but I've argued that before. I've argued that before." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "50:08", "start": 3008.18, "text": "I, I've argued about the Gresham's Law thing with both, with Vehorhis and with, and with Lynn before. Like, I, I went" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "50:20", "start": 3020.49, "text": "Exchanges on that. but like, anyways, if you take that definition of Gresham's Law, like, you could say that, you know, that, you know, people are gonna use the USD and they're gonna store their Bitcoin, right? And until we don't have USD anymore, then people will use their Bitcoin or life changes and then they need to buy a house and then they use their Bitcoin. But most people are gonna take the low preference route because it pays. See, i-it's not out of a moral high ground, it's not out of like, you know," }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "50:51", "start": 3050.53, "text": "Religion or anything. It's like the incentive is very clear for the economic actor here, right? If you store this thing, okay, it's gonna be worth ten times more in, in like generally this amount of time, and if you store it again, you get another ten X, and then another ten X, and people see the trend line and they go like, \"You know what? I'll take my chances and I won't spend it,\" right? Like, i-i-it's, it's not, it's not like you don't need to read any, any, Austrian economics Understand that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:23", "start": 3082.8, "text": "Yeah, I think it is just the process playing out over time. And so, yeah, we've spoken about a bunch of things, but I guess, if you had to sort of- As, as things are right now, if you had to sort of guess the likely pathway over the next few years, what do you think? I think you've commented on Twitter saying that it might be, you know, maybe it's gonna be a few years and eventually people kind of find Maybe they get consensus on some kind of covenant. Is that kind of your likely, what you're thinking or what are you seeing as the likely way this goes?" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "51:53", "start": 3113.03, "text": "I think we attract a lot of smart people So, you know, humans invent shit, like, like, you know, and, and the like, the likelihood we get a bunch more interesting proposals and magical things. We got magically, we got Bitcoin, right? It's magical. Like, you know, so, so the likelihood we get other things is very, very high, right? It's, it's a time problem. So it's a when thing, not an if thing, right? And, and I, and I think people will come out with like very interesting things in the near future that will start gathering like a lot more consensus because they'll be safer and more interest. Right, the, the, there'll be like a clear market purpose for the thing, the clear demand, right? And there'll be like a, a set of trade-offs that is more palatable, right? A-and, you know, so therefore gets activated, right? Like, I, I don't think you're gonna get activation on anything in engineers just saying, \"I want this because it's great.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:58", "start": 3178.2, "text": "Yeah. I guess one other, I guess, argument you'll hear from some people is, \"Oh, well, look, see, it's important that Bitcoin remains censorship resistant, and if only one percent of the world can transfer it, you know, on the base chain without custodial, use, then it can get censored.\" I guess that's kind of the, that's kind of the argument you might have heard. I'm curious, I guess, I presume you disagree with that argument." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "53:22", "start": 3202.37, "text": "I mean, it's a straw man. Like, you know, I can't transact to, like, you know, stop me, right? If you can't stop me, and you can't stop Levere, it's already two people now. Right? And I guarantee you somebody just fed a chicken with lightning. So there's three. Yeah. Right? Like, and, and like it just, you know, like it's, it's bullshit. You know? Like, it, it, it comes from that utopic thing. If we can't make Bitcoin like usable by a hundred percent of the eight billion people right now, Bitcoin's over, right? Like, you are as communist sort of like, like a, a central planning A, a, a problematic type of topic thinking that like the other people, the legacy people suffer from. Right? Like, have a little faith in spontaneous order. You know, it's working. Right? Like, a-and you don't need permission, like, do your thing. Right? Like, you know, come up with something else if this isn't working for you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:27", "start": 3266.81, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a great point. I, I, I think, we've covered a lot of stuff, but I guess if I had to summarize our conversation, it's kind of like maybe the term \"ossification\" might not be really the best term. It's more just about That there's a lot of people who have a conservative view of Bitcoin development, and I think that's probably the more accurate way to put it, because sometimes it's used as kind of like this online, \"Oh, you're an ossifier, you're just like a backwards-thinking person, and you just don't understand,\" when other people are more like, \"No, it's more just like they're conservative about it.\" And I think the other really interesting point that you made, and I think it's well worth listeners thinking about, is, you know, it's not my chain, it's not We have to humble ourselves to that, and, we don't necessarily have as much control over this thing, 'cause it's kind of out there and it's in the wild now." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "55:18", "start": 3318.28, "text": "Yeah, you know, like it's-- People that don't have arguments tend to attack people, right? So like, it's, like, this whole Ed Haiman thing is so idiotic. Like, you know, go talk about ideas. You know, you can shit on ideas, like, you know, like I think Raspberry Pis aren't great for Bitcoin storage. Like, you know, I'm I'm not even a bad person for doing, I just think it's reckless to use that specific platform for, you know, a list of reasons I have for not to use that thing, right? You know, I have opinions on, like, you know, what makes good software, like for security, right? Like, we, we, we have these extreme conservative ways on how we do things, so, you know, your sets are safe in your cold card, right? Like, a-and that's my bias, right? And, and like, and, and I'm happy to argue about these You disagree with me, it's like just, you know, if it's, I mean, they might be an idiot, right? But, but that's, that's when they're not offering, like, you know, like a reasonable sort of like, like a, a pro or against sort of arguments on, on, on a, on a, on the specifics of the thing, right? Like, it's just, \"Oh, you're ugly,\" \"Oh, you're fat,\" \"Okay, great,\" you know, like, \"What a productive conversation.\" And Twitter, Twitter devolves" }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "56:39", "start": 3398.99, "text": "Talk to people. So like, you know, like, and, and I, and I think, people, people have very thin skin on Twitter in general, right? So, so like the- They immediately retort to, to this sort of, you know, like you're ugly and you're fat, because they, they just don't understand the thing sometimes technically enough to have an argument. Right? A-and-and it divulges into, but this is all like a, a-a social layer problem that like not just Bitcoin has, right? Like it's, it's like people love teams, team A, team B, team red, team blue, this" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:15", "start": 3434.85, "text": "tribe and, you know, the other tribe, yeah." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "57:18", "start": 3437.7, "text": "Yeah, we need more objectivism." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:21", "start": 3440.88, "text": "Yeah, well, I think that's a fair spot. I think it's a fair point to make, and, let's see what people think about it. So listeners, check out NVK of Coinkite over at coinkite dot com, of course, NVK and the team at Coinkite are a sponsor of my show, so of course, use code Livera if you're buying there. of course, check out Unleash dot chat, and, anywhere else." }, { "speaker": "nvk_of_coinkite", "time": "57:40", "start": 3459.83, "text": "Yeah, I mean, you Go, go, go play with the things and go learn more. And, if you're bitcoins in an exchange, you're gonna probably get robbed at some point. So take your Bitcoin off the exchanges, go to, Bitcoin Security Guide. There, there is very simple steps there, including some podcast by Livera," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:04", "start": 3483.56, "text": "talking about earlier episodes. Yeah. So I'll put all that in the show notes. That's right. And, NVK, thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, make sure to give it a thumbs up and share it out there with your family and friends. Check out my website at stephanelivera.com, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }