{ "episodeId": "SLP585", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau": { "name": "Bitcoin Unit of Account with Luke Thibodeau", "role": "guest", "tag": "BITCOIN" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:13", "start": 12.69, "text": "Alright everyone, we're here. This is the Stephan Livera podcast, but we're in a special location on the Amity Age ship. I'm here with Luke Thibodeau from, Canada. You are the CFO of Prospera, so, a really interesting project, and, I've interviewed Eric on, on the show, this- CEO of Prospera recently, maybe six months ago or so. I'm a fan of, free private cities, so, first of all, welcome to the show. Yeah, absolutely, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so let's, let's, let's chat a little bit about it. you know, for people who aren't aware, free private cities is this idea of like, what if we could have private governance models, right? And I think the premise is that there are so many people who have very low quality governance, A little bit on that idea." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "01:01", "start": 60.98, "text": "Yeah, yeah, I think it's, you know, it's a novel concept for, for a lot of people and for me as well coming into the space. You know, I, you know, I'm, I'm originally from Canada and moved down to, to Prosper, I'm living in Rowatown now with my, my wife and my son. You know, my son's, he's eight months old and he's, he's rolling, he's in the rolling phase, so he's rolling everywhere, right? So if" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "01:27", "start": 86.84, "text": "he sees Like just crawl. But he, he won't start crawling until I show him to crawl. Yeah. And, and as soon as he learns to crawl, he's gonna say, \"Wow, why, you know, why was I rolling? Crawling is a, is a much more efficient way to move around. \" And for me as a bitcoiner, like a lot of, a lot of guys have a similar experience of, \"You don't realize, you might have an idea, but you don't realize how broken your money is until you find Bitcoin, right? \" You don't realize how, Alternative. And, and again, that's my experience with, with Prosper and with, with free private governance. It's like, I, I had an idea that, you know, things didn't quite make sense, but until I found Prospera, you know, I, I, I didn't really know that there was an alternative. And then I found this idea of, you know, private governance, governance for profit, and it's like, oh, okay, I get it now. Like, there's a better alternative, there's a better way to do things. So for me, it's" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "02:30", "start": 150.1, "text": "Finding the solution to a problem that I didn't even know I had, but once you find that solution, it's like, you know, the light bulb moment for, for a Bitcoiner, it's very similar when you start learning about, you know, Prospera and the, and the governance model that we're building there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:43", "start": 163.09, "text": "Yeah, that's fantastic. So there's lots of topics we can get into, obviously Bitcoin at being able to have it not just as legal tender, but also as your unit of account. Obviously as a CFO, I'm sure we can get into that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:01", "start": 180.86, "text": "Regulatory framework and apply that. So I think that's really cool. And then also we'll chat a little bit about what's life like actually on the island, right? So just a bit of context for people who aren't familiar, you know, Honduras is a nation that, you know, I think it was about ten years ago put in this ZETA law, that was what enabled some of these free private cities now, Prosperra is on the island of Roatán, and so that, that now we're starting to, you know, we've had people moving there and living there" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:30", "start": 210.02, "text": "Livera, what life is like on the island, just to start? Yeah, yeah man, life's tough." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "03:36", "start": 216.06, "text": "Life's tough living on an island. No, I'm kidding. It's, you know, Prospera, Prospera is, is located in, in a city we call Saint John's Bay, and it was a resort community that we acquired. so there's, you know, a golf course, a hotel, a private beach club with, you know, pools, a dive, a dive shop for scuba diving. so life's good, life As you, as you know as well, especially with a family, moving, moving isn't easy. You're leaving your family, you're leaving your friends. so when we first moved out, we made a very conscious effort to, you know, start building community, and I think that's super important, you know, build the people around you that you want to be able to grow with and associate with, especially having a, you know, a young son who's starting to be able to interact with people, that was the number one priority for us. So starting to go down and see the community" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "04:30", "start": 270.04, "text": "For, you know, six months ago to now, it's, it's already such a huge change in pace. There's, you know, this, this tight knit group of people who are either working for Prospera or working for private enterprise living in Prospera. You know, young families starting to come and, and we have this, this group starting to form of these, these communities. So, you know, life is, life is good. There's trade-offs, right? Living on an island is like, you know, coming from, from Canada where I'm just used to having everything" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "05:00", "start": 300.02, "text": "The plan for what you can't immediately access, which is a good thing and a bad thing. my Amazon order now just builds up for a few months and then I just hit it all at once." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:09", "start": 309.19, "text": "Oh, right." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "05:11", "start": 310.67, "text": "But yeah, man, you learn, you know, like who's your fish guy, who's your meat guy, where do you get your groceries, your fruit, like that kind of stuff. You learn it and it's not bad. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:17", "start": 317.09, "text": "in terms of Amazon, you get that delivered to the island as well?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "05:20", "start": 319.51, "text": "Yeah, it's a bit tricky. So they do" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:30", "start": 330.0, "text": "You can still get stuff, but it's just maybe a little bit of a delay. It's not like, you gotta lower your time preference, guys. You can't expect everything next day delivery. It's a little time" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "05:37", "start": 337.04, "text": "preference thing. Exactly. Yeah, exactly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:40", "start": 339.73, "text": "Okay, but, what about, language? Is it, can you get by on English or do you need to learn some Spanish to really get by? They're super," }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "05:46", "start": 346.35, "text": "they're super welcoming. Like, I, I try and speak Spanish. I don't speak, my wife and I try and speak Spanish where we" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "05:57", "start": 357.06, "text": "can Yeah. It's a super friendly, you know, place to be. I think it's, it's got the, you know, British origins for that, you know, for that region. So there's a lot to, to be-- Well, a lot to that in the English, in the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:10", "start": 369.93, "text": "English side. Yeah. and then in terms of, I guess some people are concerned about, let's say, safety and crime rates and things like that. So any thoughts on that? No," }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "06:21", "start": 381.48, "text": "Roatán is a really safe island. It's a, it's a very popular tourist destination, so it's surrounded by, you know, beautiful coral reef, and it lends to a lot of visitors, over a million visitors a year to Roatán on cruise ships, and, obviously we have an international airport, on Roatán, so it's, it's always been a very tourist focused, country, our, our island in the country of, of Honduras. Greater Honduras has a lot more, you know, security concerns, if you're mainland Honduras," }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "06:51", "start": 410.54, "text": "And you know, I've never felt unsafe. And then again, within Prospera, we have, you know, additional security, private security, and those access control points that, you know, I've never felt unsafe there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:00", "start": 420.5, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah. Now, one thing I've heard from different people, and of course, I want you to clarify how, how you see it. I think some people have this perception of Prospera on Roatán being like, this kind of rich digital nomad, rich libertarian kind of- Vibe, is that true or not really, or how, how would you frame it? I'd say" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "07:20", "start": 440.42, "text": "it's a mix. It's, it's unlike anywhere in the world that I've been. It's a mix of demographics, from, you know, lower income to, to medium income, maybe high, you know, digital nomads to higher income individuals. Remember, this is a, it's a resort community that we're transforming into this charter city, so you have existing property within Prosper, you have existing villas within Prosper, and these are, these are like nice places, like Right next door, less than a mile away, we just commissioned, you know, Duna Tower, our, our fourteen story condo tower, and these are, you know, as low as a hundred thousand dollars, you can buy a unit in this place. So it's, it's, it's this interesting, you know, paradigm between the two, this interesting interplay between the two, and I think it's gonna be like that for, for a long time, and the beauty of it is, you know, this is an open platform that people can and will build, you know, home, home Side, you know, what are the projects we're gonna prioritize, or what are the projects that will be prioritized, and we'll build for that need. So right now it's sort of the, you know, middle to, to top tier, but I think as there's a need, and there, and there will continue to be a need for lower income housing in the project, for locals working with Improust, or for people who are digital nomads and, and lower income people, I think people will see that opportunity, and within Improust, they have" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:45", "start": 525.24, "text": "On the Bitcoin side, I know AMITYA is there, can you tell us a little bit about the Bitcoin scene in Rotan?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "08:51", "start": 531.14, "text": "Yeah, AMITYA is doing tremendous work, so they've onboarded, they've onboarded businesses across the entire island, within, within the Prosper, Prosper jurisdiction, you know, outside the Prosper jurisdiction, they're doing an awesome job. so I think there's close to a hundred businesses in Rotan that are accepting Bitcoin, which is, which is incredible. so you can plan your day, you can plan your trip, and you can literally just And, you know, our hotel, our beach club, and our, our, our golf club are all set up to accept Bitcoin payments. a-and yeah, we have, you know, Prosper is a, a huge advocate of Bitcoin, we're, we're Bitcoin first in terms of our, our principles, and, and that's the beauty of, of, of Prosper is, it's sort of come together and it's been, it's been Bitcoin by, you know, by default, not by design. And I think a lot of people, you know, have this impression that, you" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "09:45", "start": 585.08, "text": "Leading the project, you know, just happened to be Bitcoiners because of the shared first principles between Prospera and between Bitcoin. So it's super cool to kind of see that form and start to see how businesses can benefit by, you know, understanding the benefits of Bitcoin and understanding how they can interact with Bitcoin, and then understanding the benefits of Prospera, and then, you know, kind of making that logical next step of, you know, being within Prospera. So super cool to, to be a part of that as a Bitcoiner." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:10", "start": 610.01, "text": "Yeah, of course. And I mean, many of Bitcoin, spend Bitcoin and just natively, you know, use the Lightning Network or whatever, and, you know, it just, I, I think it, there's something, there's a magic to it, right? When you're able to truly make it happen like that." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "10:26", "start": 625.54, "text": "It's, it's, it's true, man, and, like nowhere in the world can you really do that yet. There's no jurisdiction where you can really be on a Bitcoin standard as a business, except for Prospera. Prospera is the first jurisdiction in the world that I'm, that I Under El Salvador's done it, we understand it, we understand the implications of what it means, but Bitcoin is a unit of account. You can, you can, you can run your business on Bitcoin, accept Bitcoin, pay Bitcoin, hold Bitcoin without ever having to, you know, do this weird paper forex conversion into some fiat currency, recording these weird basis and tracking basis, tracking historical cost, average cost, and then writing off these, these foreign exchange gains or losses, which by the way didn't happen. There's no cash exchange into other comprehensive income, whatever the hell that is. Like, there's So much, you know, there's so much fiat garbage with, with how businesses are forced to run when they're using Bitcoin, and Prosper allows you to truly be on a Bitcoin standard. You don't have to deal with that, and I think that's, that's pretty revolutionary when people start to think about, you know, the implications that has for, for businesses that want to be in, in the Bitcoin world, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:33", "start": 692.87, "text": "Yeah. So are you aware of people pricing contracts in Bitcoin terms, like not in, you know, 'cause currently today many of us are using like USD pricing, but at" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:45", "start": 705.08, "text": "People are doing Bitcoin well today. Yeah. Are you aware of people actually pricing it in sets?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "11:50", "start": 710.28, "text": "I think there's, there's still too much, Bitcoin's still too nascent, there's still too much volatility for that to be practical. the use case where I've seen that starting and, and where I think a business is, is about to launch doing that is in the insurance space. Yeah. In the insurance space where it's, it's very short term contracts and they can price an insurance policy for, say, travel insurance, right? Yeah. I'll, I'll, Volatility in Bitcoin, but I can buy the policy for the next week denominated in Bitcoin, I'll pay my premium in Bitcoin, you'll hold the treasury to pay out that policy in Bitcoin, so those can be denominated in Bitcoin very easily. But where we are today, I think it's, you know, we're still a ways away from people pricing in SaaS because they could be underwater pretty" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:33", "start": 752.51, "text": "quickly or price that up. Maybe certain businesses have historically been able to do it, let's say CoinJoin, that's probably one example of a coin, of a business where they can actually price in space, real world, let's say, it's, not as feasible. But I mean, of course, many of us would love to get there and-- Yeah. I mean, m-uh, like hardcore Bitcoin people, we think about, like, when you think of your net worth, I think of it in Bitcoin terms, right? Like, so we should be able to do that, not just as an individual, but also as a company, as a business. And so I think" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "13:01", "start": 781.25, "text": "you'll, you'll see a natural transformation to, to require that. When you're talking about, I think Bitcoin will do in the next, you know, five to ten years. For example. Yeah. Right? So, so in that, in that scenario, I need to be thinking in Bitcoin terms. I need to be thinking, what is this company generating, not in fiat profit as a ROI, but in Bitcoin profit. And again, this sort of connects back to, you know, Bitcoin as a unit of account really helps me understand the performance and track that performance against where I need it to be. If I'm looking at a company and it's in a Bitcoin standard and it's using Bitcoin as" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "13:45", "start": 825.14, "text": "Outperforming the fiat conversion of Bitcoin, I'm just looking at my Bitcoin position" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:49", "start": 828.98, "text": "growing. Yeah, of course. It's like, I'm putting, I'm putting some Bitcoin into this particular project, is it gonna return more Bitcoin than I put in? Exactly. Like end of the day, like putting all the accounting aside, now you're, you know, you're a CFO, I came, you know, historically I was a chartered accountant in Australia, so, you know, we can nerd out about balance sheets and income statements and P&L and whatever, but I mean, that's bottom" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "14:15", "start": 855.26, "text": "Yeah, like I wouldn't see that directly within, within my line of sight. I've talked to, to business owners and entrepreneurs who see a ton of different use cases, yeah. but for me personally, like I wouldn't see directly on the ground how people are reporting their finances, just because it's, you know, it's, it's, it, that's their financial information, so I wouldn't have full, you know, insights" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:33", "start": 872.99, "text": "into that. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. and then, so then when it comes to, you know, business setup, let" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:44", "start": 883.52, "text": "Can run into issues in different jurisdictions, right? Some jurisdictions are very paperwork heavy, very bureaucratic, there's long delays to get set up, you know, the high taxes, it's not so clear, or maybe the regulatory environment isn't so clear, so businesses are sort of living under this like sword of Damocles and they're not sure if it's gonna, it's gonna come down on them. Whereas I think it's a different, setup with Prospero and free private cities, right?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "15:08", "start": 907.9, "text": "Yeah, you're, you're touching on a few points that I think are, are worth unpack" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "15:14", "start": 913.64, "text": "you know, one of the shared first principles with Bitcoin is, I think the, the predictability of Prospera. you know, the predictability, obviously we all know that in, in, in Bitcoin, I'm preaching to the choir to explain it, you know, but we, we know how many bitcoins there, there are going to be in existence, we know how often those bitcoins are gonna be mined, we know how, you know, the, the transaction is going to work with the blockchain, it's all very predictable. and there's an interesting line of similarity between" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "15:43", "start": 942.96, "text": "There's sovereignty, they know that they're staying power within operating a business in Prospera, and, and there's comfort in that, and it lends to, you know, you being susceptible to being a good, you know, place for, for investment for that exact reason. So there's similarities there with, with the staying power of, of, you know, the jurisdiction and, and you know what you're gonna get, you're not gonna be surprised by some new regulation that came out of nowhere that somebody dreamed up because they're dealing with some, you know, geopolitical issue that, you know, happened With that within Prosper, which I think is super refreshing for a lot of industries, and a lot of industries that are operating within, you know, a highly regulated environment. So, yeah, like that, that's my background, right? So, prior to, to Prosper, I was, I was the CFO of a publicly traded company in Canada. we were a non-custodial Bitcoin exchange, and, and we were, you know, as regulated as we could be, there was, there was financial reporting requirements that hadn't been designed because, you know, Bitcoin The other component is the fact that, you know, we're, we're regulated by the, you know, the Canadian Securities Administrators, and then there's provincial securities bodies, so the, you know, OSC and the ASC, the Alberta Securities Commission, where, you know, we were headquartered, and the interplay between the two, which wasn't clear. And then because we're dealing with Bitcoin, this digital asset that, that nobody, you know, it's a scary word that nobody understands, you know, now there's, there's new regulations on, okay, if there's a custodial" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "17:13", "start": 1032.98, "text": "Securities dealer, but we're not quite sure, we're not gonna tell you. And then, you know, dealing with the, the Bitcoin exchange to fiat, there's the, the whole idea of, you know, being, being monitored by Fintrack, doing your reporting, doing your, you know, MSB KYC, the whole nine yards. So we were, I come, my background is, is coming from an industry that's as regulated, maybe not as possible, but very, very highly regulated in, in, in that space. So coming to, to Prospera, where I see" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "17:43", "start": 1063.0, "text": "My business or the business I was a part of from Canada back here, like it would be night and day in terms of not only costs, which is, you know, you're spending millions of dollars to be a regulated exchange in Canada, but time and energy, and you can, you know, redirect those, those resources and those efforts to, you know, building your business and, and, and, and building the economy basically. So different mindset for sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:06", "start": 1085.71, "text": "Yeah, I think it's just such a- Yeah, I think that this is something worth, exploring as well. So, as I, you correct me if I'm wrong or you, you help me understand this, but, my understanding is. This is one of the innovations of free private cities and Prospera is that you can pick your regulatory jurisdiction that applies to you when you're setting up your business. Can you just elaborate a bit on that?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "18:29", "start": 1109.43, "text": "Yeah, so, so within Prospera, if you're in a regulated industry, so think, you know, if I'm using American terms, something that's regulated by the SEC or by the FDA or by one of these regulatory bodies, you know, within the US, if you're regulated by one of those, you know, those, those oversea- Bodies, you know, you're a regulated industry. What you're doing is regulated by somebody. So if you're in a regulated industry and you wanna operate with Improspera, we have what's called a regulatory election, which is this innovative, you know, brand new concept that it makes a whole lot of sense when you start to unpack it. Basically, what you-- There's, there's three options. What you described was, you know, option number one, where you can choose, you can choose which regulations apply to you, from a list, from the OECD, you know u s whatever. You can also say, \"Listen, like what I'm doing has never been done before. None of these country's regulations apply to me, this doesn't make sense. I need to propose my own. I need to help you understand what I'm doing, and I, and I, and I agree that it needs to be regulated to an extent, but the regulations that exist in the world don't really apply to my business. So we allow you to propose your own set of regulations, and you can, you know, you can say, \"Uh, I'll do this and I'll You know, overseen, so to speak. so that's the second option. So that, you know, obviously has some, some time components. You have to apply for it, you know, there's revisions, then it needs final approval. and then the third option is you can just use common law and you can just operate sort of in this, you know, gray area, a-and it's the highest risk option because there's three x damages and under common law, you know, court. So if, if you're operating a regulated business and, and you damage me for, And the other aspect of that is, is it pierces the corporate veil. So, you know, you're, if you're into, you know, business and setting up businesses, you understand the concept of setting up a corporation, you'd be personally liable. You'd be personally liable because it, it pierces that, you know, protection level from that you'd normally have within a business. So it's a very, very high risk option, but if you really understand what you're doing and, and are willing to sort of self-insure, so to speak, i-it's an option" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:48", "start": 1247.76, "text": "You might think, \"Look, I can go around the world and look at, okay, out of those forty or so OECD jurisdictions, let me pick the lowest regulation one and apply that, right? \"" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "20:58", "start": 1257.55, "text": "Yeah, I mean, you, you definitely could, and, and, and that's the beauty of it, and you can change. You can say, \"Listen, you know, it makes sense for me to, to operate under German law when I'm setting up, \" and, and as you go, maybe you scale and you grow, and okay, now, you know, Switzerland, you know" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "21:18", "start": 1277.52, "text": "The jurisdictions and maneuver between, you know, what's gonna be the most efficient for you, which is, you know, super cool. But I think, you know, it's got a lot of, it, it's got a lot of, you know, impact for some of these industries that are very highly regulated and they build out, a legal and a regulatory infrastructure around the business, right? So one that would come to mind that's super relevant right now in Prosper and its current building-building phase is in the construction industry, right? You have a team of engineers, you have a And local code, you have a team of, you know, lawyers who understand, you know, property law, you have a team of, you know, regulatory compliance professionals who understand anti-money laundering, KYC, what we can and can't do. And you're able to basically transport all of that known capital, that intellectual property of, \"We built this business and we know how it works here,\" and you can transplant that into Prospera so you can use your existing building infrastructure, your existing construction infrastructure, and just transplant it in, so you have the same team. You know, in a completely geographically diverse or geographically different zone building, and they know that they're in compliance with, you know, the law. They don't have to learn Honduran building code and Honduran law and the restrictions and the requirements. They don't have to need-- They don't need to know that. They can just apply their home country regulations, you know, in Prosper, which I think is, you know, game changing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:38", "start": 1357.58, "text": "Yeah. So there's a few things I wanna dig into with that. So I guess the first question that comes to my mind is, what happens when" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:48", "start": 1367.52, "text": "Libertarians and kind of have the, you know, maybe some people like the idea of anarcho-capitalism, and in, in, in a loose kind of very small sense, this is kind of like that, right? Because you can have different businesses in the same jurisdiction having different law apply to them." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "23:00", "start": 1379.51, "text": "Yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:00", "start": 1380.07, "text": "So then what happens if they try to go to court with each other and they're like, \"Well, no, I'm under German law, you're actually under Canadian law,\" like," }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "23:07", "start": 1386.98, "text": "\"I'm under common law, what are you talking about? Like, you can" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "23:18", "start": 1397.5, "text": "Happens now, what happens is maybe they send me, no, no, they send me a purchase agreement or they'll send me a contract, and in that contract, one of the clauses is, \"We agree to be bound by Alberta law, \" for example. So we agree to be bound by, you know, this regulation or this law. So I think contractually, that will be ironed out between the two parties before work is started, if they have good lawyers, that it should be. where if I'm, you know, German regulation, your Swiss regulation, I'll put you know, but within, within the jurisdiction to settle these kinds of disputes, and, and they, they have and will continue to, to pop up, we have, you know, the, the, the Prospera Arbitration Center. So it's an arbitrate, it's not a, a, a formal court, but it's an arbitration center. So it's a privately run, you know, arbitration center that you pay for access to by virtue of being a member and being a citizen of Prospera, being a resident of Prospera, you have access to that, and it's," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:18", "start": 1457.8, "text": "And then what about if, let's say we have different, you know, jurisdictions and when we don't have a contract, but somehow one of us has done damages to the other, you know, but there's no contract, you know, something like I damaged your land or I polluted your land or something like, what happens there?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "24:32", "start": 1472.39, "text": "So if, if you're both within Prospera, when you sign up to be a resident, you sign what's called an agreement of coexistence, and within that agreement of coexistence, you're agreeing to be bound by, you know, the Prospera charter Arbitration center, so on and so forth. So it would sort of prescribe, you know, what are the, the measures that, that would, you know, give you some sort of relief or some sort of solution to that issue. Yeah. Fascinating." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:58", "start": 1497.79, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. The lead sponsor of this show is Swan dot com, and Swan has a mission to onboard millions of people into Bitcoin. I also work at Swan, helping on some educational content for the team. Now, the team have also put out a new version of the Swan Bitcoin application, which is available on your smartphone Whether it's Apple or Android. Now, this app has a really fast onboarding experience. It's now just a few minutes to go from zero to Bitcoin. So if you are standing there with your family or friends and you might have been having trouble trying to get them onboarded, well, try this now. Recommend Swan Bitcoin, and you can do this while you're standing next to them. They can click through, and most of them will be able to set up and do this in just a few minutes. Also, the team at Swan have rolled out a new promotion. There are zero fees on your first dollars of Bitcoin buys. So this is a great way to go from zero to Bitcoin and in a guided and managed way. So reminder, go to your app store or Play Store and search Swan Bitcoin to get onboarded with Bitcoin today. This show brought to you by CoinKite dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now The way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on those, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Befiktor Desktop or Nunchuk as a few examples. Now you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices such as passphrases, you can use Seed X or, or my favorite is multi-signature. Now if you're Starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. But I believe these devices are great at helping secure your coins, especially as you start to migrate up into multi-signature security. But don't be disheartened or don't be, scared away, they are accessible, and I think you actually do learn about Bitcoin in the process. So to get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code livera to get a discount on your cold card. This show also brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I use it all the time when I'm checking transaction fees and trying to understand what is the state of Bitcoin's mempool. You can search transactions, historical as well as unconfirmed ones, and also see a great way to visualize things across the Lightning Network, Liquid, mining, and so much more. Also, for those of you with an enterprise, they offer a mempool dot space enterprise program. So for those of you as As part of that enterprise program, you might wanna get increased API limits, and you might wanna have increased access to the team in terms of feature requests. You might wanna have special branding in terms of how your custom instance of mempool dot space looks. So to sign up for that, go to mempool dot space slash enterprise. And now, back to the show. Okay, yeah. I mean, I think it's a really cool-- I mean, for some people that's controversial, but for me, I think it's a really cool, you know, it's a great, like, as Like being able to choose jurisdictions, and I'm a big fan of jurisdictional arbitrage. Now, I guess the controversial part could be, for some people, maybe they would see that like, \"Well, hang on, are there crazy experiments happening there on the island that, you know, maybe they don't like?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "28:31", "start": 1711.19, "text": "\" Yeah. \"Uh," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:33", "start": 1712.73, "text": "I'm curious if that, does that, come up much or not really?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "28:36", "start": 1716.02, "text": "\" I mean, you know, controversy is, is relative, right? So there's, there's lots of things that some people might find controversial, Wait, if I'm a, if I'm a regulated, you know, if I'm a regulated business and I'm doing business and prosper, and I'm saying the, you know, you know, health, biotech, biohacking phase or, you know, industry, you know, I'm, I'm agreeing to a certain set of regulations, and those regulations will sort of, you know, bind what I can and can't do. It's not like the Wild West where, you know, anything goes, you know, whatever. and by doing that, by being in a regulated" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "29:18", "start": 1757.5, "text": "There's, there's requirements that are imposed upon you, that you also have to consider, those insurance requirements. That's how this all works, right? It's, it's enforced basically through insurance, because insurance providers have the, the only sort of real economic incentive to find the most, you know, viable amount of regulation to apply to a regulated industry. so that's, that's kind of how it would work, is you'd have a, a business that, you know, if they're not unregulated, they're regulated and they're sort of kept in, you know, That the requirements to do certain things, not do certain things, check in, have, you know, attestation by professionals in their, in their field. There's definitely checks and balances within that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:57", "start": 1796.57, "text": "Yeah, and to- totally fair. And I think, you know, that's really what's gonna move, I think, move things forward is give people different options. And I think, whether they are businesses in the Bitcoin world or whether they are, you know, outside of Bitcoin, but I mean, I guess 'cause I'm sort of in the Bitcoin world, I'm sort of Or an ARC service provider or some kind of multi-sign co-signer, like there's all kinds of businesses that theoretically could be set up and run with low rotan, and then, you know, there's just so much opportunity there with low tax as well. So actually, we should talk a little bit about that. So can you kind of outline some of the taxes and like how that works? 'Cause I understand it's like a five percent, but that's like a Honduras government requirement, so-" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "30:41", "start": 1841.04, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So, so right now we have in place the effective tax rates are a" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "30:48", "start": 1847.6, "text": "Income, so that would be like if I'm earning wages, right? Five percent of those wages, it's a one percent business, business tax as a function of revenue, top line revenue, yeah, and then a two and a half percent value add tax, like a sales tax. those are the, the three taxes in place. We also have a one percent land value tax, right? But that's on the land, not the property. That's on the land, not the property, which is a-- Appreciate you making that distinction. but right now there's no" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "31:18", "start": 1877.62, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But I mean, you know, taxes is one of those things where it's, it's so refreshing, you know, being in an environment where there's, there's, you know, there's no games to be played, there's no, you know, business write-offs and there's no tax credits that you can or can't apply for, and there's no, you know, shell corporations here or there. It's just, what was your revenue? Okay, what's one percent of that? Alright, pay in Bitcoin, and you're" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "31:48", "start": 1907.52, "text": "Thing in the world." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:49", "start": 1908.79, "text": "Yeah, so a lot of, lot of benefits there in that sense because it's just simple and low and kind of flat-ish, you know? It's just kind of set, and so, yeah, I mean Like in the, in the world today, it seems that there's a lot of people who are annoyed about tax competition, let's put it that way, right? Like so some of the, what they call, they call themselves tax justice networks or whatever, and they're like, \"Oh, we want corporate, we want minimum corporate tax, and we want minimum personal income tax, 'cause this, this amount this other country has is too low.\" Or they'll say, \"Oh, look, there's whatever drug laundering, whatever, whatever, so therefore, fifteen percent tax.\" And you know, certain" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:30", "start": 1949.57, "text": "And if you don't put it in, you know, so I, I understand there's kind of this, yeah, tension there between, let's say, the jurisdiction and some of the Governmental entities around the world, let's say, or inter-govern, or intergovernmental entities. So it's kind of a bit of a tension there, but ultimately, it's a low tax, right? Like, I think that's the, that's the bottom line. No, it's," }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "32:51", "start": 1971.27, "text": "and it's ironic, right? We're at a Bitcoin conference, and, and I think Bitcoin, you know, sheds a lot of light on not only the, the, the visible tax, the tax rate that you see, but the invisible tax, right? The, the inflation, the money" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "33:10", "start": 1990.24, "text": "And so forth, completely oblivious to the fact that they're paying this invisible tax, you know, with the money printer spinning up every day. So I think all it is, is, is, is, you know, it needs to be a component of education. People need to understand really, you know, how, how they're paying for the services that they're consuming. And I think once that, that education layer is inserted, you know, people will start to realize that there's, there's no free lunch, right? There's, there's things that taxes are paying for, but that" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "33:40", "start": 2020.24, "text": "Start to see that and, and I think, you know, the Bitcoin, the Bitcoin future, the Bitcoin standard is inevitable, so I think it'll just take time. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of ironic in my opinion for people to be, you know, cheering, you know, pay your fair share, tell, tax the rich, and then reality is like, you know, you guys don't even realize the other half being stolen, the other half that you're being" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:58", "start": 2038.12, "text": "stolen from. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think for a lot of people," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:10", "start": 2050.24, "text": "context. Yeah. And they just look at, \"Oh, look, my property went up this much.\" They don't think about inflation, they don't think about the maintenance, they don't think about all these other things. And then, crucially, like we were saying, capital gains tax, right? So it's kind of like a double-- They hit you with these two things, right? They, they inflate the denominator, right? The fiat currency. So there's lots of more of these political currency units floating out there. And then when you sell, and because most people over the course of It's not just your income, it's a fraction of your wealth each time you sell a property or whatever." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "34:44", "start": 2084.37, "text": "Totally, totally. I couldn't agree more, man. And it's, it's, it's almost comical to watch in Canada. You have, you know, obviously the tax rates are astronomical, and people just put up with it. And, and you have, you know, they g- 'cause they give you little breadcrumbs. They'll give you like a little bit here, a little bit there. You know, they have, they'll put the carbon tax in and they'll jack you know, we paid out more, more to, you know, low income families this year, and, and they give you a little bit of a breadcrumb, and they give you sort of, just enough to sort of, you know, just a little bit of a teaser to kind of keep you, keep you hungry, keep you, keep you hanging on, right? So it's, it's, it's almost comical to watch the system, and, and I think eventually people will wake up. I think, you know, in this day and age, people are, are starting to become is incredibly" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:41", "start": 2141.16, "text": "refreshing. Yeah, and so, I mean, you mentioned Canada, like, and obviously you're from Canada, so let's dig into that a little bit, like, what kind of things are you hearing from people, you know, your Canadian friends and family back home? are they sort of- Hopeful, okay, let, let me frame it this way. I think there's two main pathways, right? Either one, stay and fight, right? Try to fix and change it, you know, just change the system politically, et cetera, you know, vote for Pierre, Paul, Olivia, or something like that. And part two is kind of the, play the jurisdictional game, right? Like, I'm obviously more in the jurisdictional game, I think you sound, it sounds like obviously you're more in the jurisdictional game too. But, how do" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "36:25", "start": 2184.51, "text": "I'm from Alberta, so we're pretty, you know, we're, we're, we still have a little bit of sanity left in Alberta. but people are fed up, man. Like growing up, I had a masterclass in how to, how to just take advantage of the government. I had a masterclass. Everywhere I look, it's like, how can I leverage, you know, a government handout? How can I leverage, you know, some sort of free government payment? How can I leverage, you know, employment insurance? It's, you have entire classes of people desirable how much thought they give it, but they'll work for the exact number of hours they need to, to get the exact number of, you know, government benefit, and then they screw off, and then they don't work for, you know, the exact number of days, and they know it's all calculated. They know exactly what they can and can't do, and it's, it, people are, are, are seeing this and they're fed up, and, and I think, you know, layer on top of that a very hot political climate, a very, you know, right And people are fed up with it, man. Like my, my close circle is fed up with it. I've got, you know, a brother who's, who's, he's, he's down in the US now, I'm in, you know, Prospera now. people are kind of, they're, they're kind of sick and tired and they're looking for, you know, what are the alternatives? You know, where do I wanna raise my family? Do I wanna raise my family in an environment where, you know, people aren't contributing to, to, All these different things that, you know, I just, I can't, I can't wrap my head around and I can't agree with fundamentally. Am I gonna raise my family there? Or am I gonna opt out? And I think for me, I made the decision to opt out. for my brother, he made the decision to opt out, and I think for a lot of my friends and family, they're going to make the decision to opt out. And it's not, it's not a Bitcoin versus fiat thing, it's just, you know, there's, there's too much It's kind of, you know, a little bit depressing," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:28", "start": 2307.51, "text": "but I mean, but there's optimism too, right? We have a, we have a new choice. We have a new" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "38:32", "start": 2311.58, "text": "choice, and there is optimism, and there is people who, you know, will, will stay and fight, and, and whether or not that, that fight succeeds, I don't know. It's just so deeply rooted in, in that culture, in the fabric of society, this, this mentality that they have. So I mean, you mentioned, you know, Pierre Pélivier, So much to do to, to, to sort of dig out of that hole, and, it's gonna take a long, a long, long time for sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:01", "start": 2341.42, "text": "And even hypothetically, right? Like hypothetically, if we could elect somehow Ron Paul or, you know, the kind of, whoever, you know, pick your favorite libertarian, if we could somehow get that guy in, our, our guy, whatever. There would still be this massive welfare state to deal with, right? There's this massive Ponzi almost to deal with that there's just gonna be all these old people who will want a certain entitlement. They've, they've chipped into the system and they believe it's their entitlement, but there'll be all these young people who are like, effectively, you're expected to pay into this Ponzi, but when you're, when you grow old, the Ponzi won't be there for you, right? It'll be gone by then. So it's kind of like, there's this kind of gener" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:42", "start": 2382.37, "text": "There's not really any, there's just no easy" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "39:44", "start": 2383.91, "text": "answer. Yeah, man, like I'm, I'm not an economist, so I'll stay in my lane, but I think it's, you know, it's just, it's human nature when you've been given something and you expect something, you expect to continue receiving that thing, and you become reliant on that thing, and that's the danger, right? You look at, you know, the collapse of some of the communist states, you know, historically, and, and, and when communism starts to go away, it's rough. Like" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "40:13", "start": 2412.55, "text": "To, you know, the government being there and providing this, you know, these breadcrumbs, but the breadcrumbs that keep you alive. So it's, it's a, it's a painful shift, but I think it's an inevitable shift. I think ultimately, you know, the free market will, will determine when that shift happens, but, yeah, I don't think it's gonna be an easy ride for sure. I think, you know, Canada's at least well equipped with, you know, the economy that, that can, that can support itself with its natural resources, with its oil You know, Canada, I, I tell people all the time, it's, it's the biggest, you know, it, it's the biggest bummer for me because it's got so much potential. It's got people who can, you know, work, who, who are willing to learn. There are some, you know, There's an educated class there, there's people who understand, you know, what's going on, and it's just knee-capped by this government that won't get out of the way. You have, you know, natural reserves, you got oil and gas, you know, at your fingertips, and, and the government just won't get out of the way and let the free market sort of, you know, drive that economy. The fact that it's literally right next to the world powerhouse of the world, and you're telling me that this isn't like one of the top, top, top countries" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:27", "start": 2486.93, "text": "In terms of different choices, I mean, I know there's a lot of Canadians who went to El Salvador as an example, and, you know, I guess let's say if you're a Canadian and you're looking where to go, you might look at South America and think, okay, there's some options here. So what, in your view, what are some of the options out there, and how does, let's say, Prospera in Bratton compare to them?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "41:51", "start": 2510.6, "text": "Yeah, there's, there's a lot of, there are a lot of special economic zones, There's hundreds of special economic zones and, and Prosper is unique in that it's, it's a, it, you know, it's governance for profit. It's pri- it's a private company, it's a private enterprise that's sort of developed this, the special economic zone, and the special economic zone exists as a constitutional right. So I say that because it has a tremendous amount of staying power, when you compare that to, you know, a sovereign zone, a, a special economic zone, maybe like in Dubai or, you know, like in Cayman Islands. These And they can snap their fingers and change their mind, and I think that's, that's the biggest risk I see. So, you know, for me, seeing Canadians leave, they're going to El Salvador, they're going to, you know, Cayman Islands, they're going to some to Dubai, some are coming to Prospera. I think those are, you know, the, the, the more viable options for sure in terms of, you know, tax friendliness, ease of doing business, things like that." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "42:48", "start": 2567.54, "text": "but that's, that's sort of what, where my To invest, you know, millions of dollars into building a business, that's a whole nother thing. I wanna make sure that jurisdiction is rock solid and has staying power and isn't gonna, you know, increase or invent some new income tax at five percent overnight, right? Like, that's kind of where, where my mind goes. But yeah, we see, you know, I have some friends that are living in El Salvador now and, and love it. There's different communities within El Salvador popping up, you know, Berlin and, and El Zonte's, you know, been around Continue to grow. but yeah, it's, it's encouraging to see that there are options. I think there need to be options, and that's the only way a free market can function, and, and ultimately, you know, this concept of, of governance for profit, you know, we have to be willing and, and able and open to have competition that's gonna force us, as Prospera, to do a, a really good job, right? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:44", "start": 2624.03, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about that in terms of Prospero's role in this, and then, you know, private entrepreneur. So what exactly does, you know, is Prospero's responsibility in terms of Roatan? I guess you're providing like the platform and you're providing sort of some of these legal frameworks. Like, what are, what are the main tasks that Prospero handles, and then what's left, you know, to the private citizen?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "44:07", "start": 2646.95, "text": "Yeah, so I think ideally, you know, most of the services that we provide will eventually be, you know, private enterprise driven. So there's some insurance components that we provide for Three, it's an opportunity for somebody to come in and, and provide insurance to underwrite those policies and, and, and earn an income base, basically doing that. So there's basic stuff, there's, there's roads, there's infrastructure, there's utilities, there's things like that that we provide as a, a governance service provider. and then obviously the, the collection of, of tax and the distribution of that, you know, to the various parties that we need to distribute it to, there's that component to it. So it's, it's basically the business of" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "44:47", "start": 2686.73, "text": "Say ancillary or, or additive to that city will be done, you know, by the, by the, by the private enterprise, by, you know, the people who see the opportunity, who wanna build a business, who, you know, the construction company who sees the lots and wants to build some houses, things like that. So right now in the, in the, the newness of the project, we're kind of doing it all, we're quarterbacking it all, you know, we're, we're running the city, we're running the governance, we're doing the insurance, we ourselves, but I think once pe- once the spark's lit, people will start to see the opportunity and start to peel that away from us in a good way, right? They'll see the opportunity and it'll be lost income for us, but it's gonna be sort of driven into the free market and then you have competition amongst them. So I think layers of it will start to peel back as, as Prospera grows, and that's what we're excited for, you know, in the next phase. Right now, we're catalyzing it, we're lighting the spark, but I think" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:47", "start": 2747.41, "text": "You know, one location, but the idea is to actually have, in the future, multiple locations, right?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "45:52", "start": 2752.12, "text": "Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's, that's, that's something a lot of people don't realize the power of, being able to, you know, have one jurisdiction that you're a member of, but you can move around, you know, geographically within that jurisdiction, so to speak. So it's kind of a, you know, it boggles your mind a little bit when you think about the implications as, again, coming back to the, the regulated industry side of things I'll call it whatever Prosper City, Prosper one point o. you know, what's next? Is it gonna be, you know, another government that supports our, our framework like El Salvador is super, you know, friendly and understands Prosper, maybe it's Prosper El Salvador. we're working closely with, you know, Megat Waide who's in Africa, so maybe there's a, an Africa Prosper Africa hub. You know, there's all sorts of opportunities, and I think what's gonna allow that is, is just working with host governments to craft the level of protection that we" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "46:47", "start": 2806.71, "text": "Build a charter city. Yeah. Here's how you build a free private city. Take this book, go to El Salvador, and do it again. Right? We know exactly what legal protections we need, we know what there are, and we know, okay, we-- if, if you, if you as a host government want us to come and do this, because you do, because you see how well it worked in Honduras, here's the things that we need to have staying power. and then once we have that sort of, you know, archipelago of prosperous nodes, it regulated industry and you're regulated in, in Prospera and Roatan and you have banking and you have systems and you have procedures and you're, you're, you're ready to go. Maybe you crafted your own regulation, you put in time and energy and effort into building a business to prosper in Roatan and a new hub opens up in another country, imagine that. You can now take your business and just operate there. You can operate there without having to, you know, do it all over again, without finding banking, which is, is the biggest issue for most businesses in new countries, without figuring out How long do I stay? Do I need residency? You can just operate in a completely different geographical location within these industries, and that's unheard of. There's nowhere else in- nowhere else in the world can you do that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:57", "start": 2876.58, "text": "Right, yeah, and people talk about how many times a cross-country expansion failed because maybe they weren't familiar with the laws, maybe they had trouble with the bureaucrats, maybe they weren't- okay, maybe there's a social component that didn't- Okay, so you can still fail for that reason, fine, but, you know, there's different reasons that can cause a business" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "48:17", "start": 2896.67, "text": "For those transfer payments, if I have a business in, in, in America and, and Canada, and I'm interacting, you know, between the two, maybe one is a subsidiary of the other, you know, you have these transfer pricing rules, you have these things that like an entrepreneur, a CEO isn't gonna know about, and they could be just hidden tripwires that you have no idea about. So Prospera changes that dynamic and it's very, you know, transparent and open and easy to, you know, be sort of cross-border in that way, which I'm super excited to see" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:47", "start": 2926.73, "text": "I'm curious to get an update on this, the whole ZETA law, the drama with the El Salvador, sorry, so with the, Honduras government. and, my understanding is that the, president of Honduras sort of ran on this kind of- Hector, kind of rallying, rallying up the people to kind of make it like, \"Oh, look, these, these expats are coming here and they're hindering our national sovereignty, et cetera, et cetera.\" But then there was sort of a threat of a lawsuit and a fifty-year, minimum period and so on. Can you give us the latest then?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "49:17", "start": 2956.95, "text": "Yeah, so I'm the numbers guy, so I'll keep an eye level. but, you know, there was a, a government that ran and that campaigned on, you know," }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "49:27", "start": 2967.48, "text": "\"No more Janet Yellen, so they campaigned on this, and sure enough, you know, when Zuma Rasko was, was elected, she, you know, followed through and she started the process to try and unwind the Z law. But, like I said, you know, our jurisdiction has a tremendous amount of staying power. There's multiple levels of legal protection from constitutional protection to international, you know, trade treaty agreements to US, you know, US treaty agreements, and organic law. So there's all sorts of levels of, of, of legal protection. So they started the process That, la- early last year, and, and in that, in that time period, we obviously, you know, defended ourselves, we stood up, we said, \"No, like, we have the right to be here, you know, we're allowed to do this, this is a constitutional right.\" and then we filed a lawsuit, you know, against the Honduran government for, you know, quite a large amount, and then they, they would have needed to ratify, they would have needed to reaffirm that the decision to repeal the Zelaya law within that same" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "50:31", "start": 3030.86, "text": "I think my understanding is in order to, to do that, they would have to reopen that, you know, battle again this year, which they haven't yet done, and then again vote to ratify it, which we haven't seen. So I think, you know. The education of the general, you know, of the general population on the island and in Greater Honduras about what the ZE is doing, you know, we're not here to steal your land, we're here to give you jobs. I think that sort of shifted the focus and shifted, and it sort of lowered the, the amplifier on that, on that megaphone to a great deal. and so we haven't seen any significant, you know, headwinds from, from that perspective. There's headwinds in the form of, you know, restricting what we can and can" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "51:12", "start": 3071.86, "text": "You know, on paper, we should be able to import, you know, without the, the restrictions that you would have importing into Honduras. Normally when you're importing, I think there's a fifteen percent tax that would be applied on anything you're bringing in, but Zeta should be able to import, you know, raw materials, goods and ser- or, yeah, goods and services, you know, without that extra duty being applied. but they, they haven't restricted us from doing that, but they refuse to staff the office that's, that we require to functionally do that. So" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "51:42", "start": 3101.88, "text": "Playing games like that, but they're not, you know, sending in the tanks and blocking us and saying full frontal. They're not full frontal. So I mean, it's, I think it's a, it's a good direction and, and I'm hoping and I'm thinking that, you know, we're, we're going into this, this next period with, you know, hopefully finding some sort of agreement and some sort of peace can be had. I think generally the, the population is starting to come around to the idea that, you know, we're here for their, their benefit and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:12", "start": 3132.36, "text": "Yeah, I, obvious, but obviously I'm, you know, I'm in the pro free market camps. Obviously, you know, we would disagree with the socialists, but, you know, I mean, really, it, it, I, I think the way it has to be is a win-win, right? It's a win-win. The people locally are gonna benefit, and people outside can benefit because they might wanna come there for whatever reason, low tax, or they like island life, or, you know, they wanna spend Bitcoin and earn Bitcoin, all these things." }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "52:35", "start": 3155.35, "text": "Yeah, This Prospero flag saying, you know, Prospero can and will, and is starting to transform governance and transform your country. we have to show that that's true. We have to, you know, provide jobs, we have to empower communities, we have to build out the, the, the system around us, right? This, this law, this ZEDY law, it's a Spanish acronym, it's, it's own for employment, employment and economic development. So if we're not employing and we're not developing the economy, then, you know, we're not doing what we Forward and ensuring that everything we do is, is, is working towards, you know, building the economy, growing the economy. We're not trying to, you know, enrich our investors first and foremost, we're trying to develop the economy, which will then, and, you know, enrich our investors. So, you know, we're doing a lot of that community engagement, we're doing a lot of that, you know, inward reflection and understanding, you know, what's gonna be the most impactful in the communities around where Prosper is today, and we're making a lot of progress on, on some" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:42", "start": 3221.92, "text": "moment, right? you, you mentioned the Duna Residence Tower, that, I mean, there's a lot of construction workers obviously who had to, you know, contribute for that, and so I'm sure there, there really are jobs, you know, being created and, put into practice, right? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "53:56", "start": 3235.83, "text": "we're running, you're, we're running a hotel and a private beach club and a golf course, and, and we're employing hundreds of employees directly there, we're employing hundreds of employees, you know, within the Duna Tower construction, you meaningful impact, it's, it's having an impact for the, the, the economy of Honduras, and I think people are waking up to that and, and realizing that and understanding that, you know, it's, it's more, it, it's more benefit than they realized initially. So again, it, it comes back to education, right? Like it's why we're, it's why we're here in BTC Prog, right? If we're not educating people about Bitcoin, you know, people aren't gonna understand why, why would I care about this? And it's the same" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:42", "start": 3281.9, "text": "City's foundation, so I, I am generally kind of out here talking about free private cities. Of course, I, you know, I wanna host free private cities people on my podcast, as I've hosted yourself and Eric and, even Massimo from Morozan, I've hosted him as well. so yeah, I'm a fan, I wanna see more of this. actually, let's talk a little bit, in terms of numbers or, I don't know how, you know, if you know the exact numbers, but roughly how many people are living in" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "55:12", "start": 3311.88, "text": "Between a hundred and fifty people there, with the new tower coming online probably closer to two hundred people, sort of within the zone, those can be, again, we acquired this resort property, that had private villas, private houses on top of it, so those could be people that don't even know that they're inside of Prospera, right? They could be people that are just living in, in sort of their house, and if you looked at the map of Prospera, there'd be like a little, you know, white dot of that land is not yet incorporated because, you" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "55:42", "start": 3341.92, "text": "Incorporate it yet. So within that, there's probably close to two hundred people, I'd say on average within the zone, and then, yeah, activating Duna, all of them know what Prosper is and they're, they're all, you know, proper prospering, it's for sure. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:53", "start": 3352.72, "text": "yeah. Right. And as I understand, the, the island itself is something loosely the size of Hong Kong, right? Like that's loosely the size, and then the idea is that over time, if, you know, if it's successful, it sort of grows and more people" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "56:10", "start": 3370.27, "text": "come There's, there's events that are happening, you know, there's hopefully gonna be a, a couple Bitcoin events here in the, in the short, you know, in the near future, potentially something, you know, coming off adopting Bitcoin with, with Prosper having, you know, the direct flight from El Salvador. There's exciting things that are happening, you know, Bitcoiners are, are understanding, you know, what is the zone, a-and as soon as they, you know, figure out the zone, it's, it's always this light bulb moment, their eyes are open, Yes, from the Bitcoin community, which I think is, is super, super important as well. I think they're, they're gonna sort of set the tone and set the pace, and, you know, those are the pioneers who are gonna sort of, you know Help, help shape, you know, what the community looks like, and I think it's super important to have people who are ideologically lined, and, and Bitcoiners fall into that, that camp for sure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:01", "start": 3421.47, "text": "Yeah, fantastic. Alright, so look, if someone wants to kind of get started, what's like the right way to, you know, sign up on the platform or that kind of thing? What does it look like? Can you just spell out a bit of that process for people?" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "57:12", "start": 3432.12, "text": "Yeah, for sure. So the easiest way to get more information is, hit up our website. A governance platform, and then Saint John's Bay is the, the city sort of where Prosper is starting. within that, you can, you know, join what we call the City Builders Network. It's like a, an online forum where people can find out, you know, what are the businesses, who's here, who's doing what, what are the opportunities, you know, where can I buy land, where do I live, things like, the questions that you have sort of coming into Prosper for the first time, you, you get those answers on, you know, that City Builders Network" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "57:52", "start": 3472.42, "text": "But, you know, we've got a hotel fully stocked, it's, you know, a golf course, we've got scuba shop, we've got more things to do than you'll have time to do it, and, and everybody needs rest. So next time you're planning, you know, a vacation, come check out Roatan, beautiful island, direct flights in from most major US cities, and, and come check us out for a week or two, and you can see the zone, you can see the Dune Tower, you can see, you know, Bitcoin, the Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "bitcoin_unit_of_account_with_luke_thibodeau", "time": "58:22", "start": 3502.38, "text": "I wasn't adopting Bitcoin, in twenty twenty-two, and I, and I happened to walk into, a workshop with, with Dushan and Amity Age and Prosper was speaking, and, like just started hearing about this, and I'm like, \"What, what is this?\" And it was the same thing that I see so many people go through now, and, and it just happenedstance that, you know, I, my family or my wife's family had a trip planned to Roatan the following month, and I checked it out, and I just fell" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:52", "start": 3532.48, "text": "Yet, main thing for me is 'cause I'm in Dubai, so it's kind of a, a difficult, you know, but, I do hope to visit at some point, but, look, ultimately, I, I want, you know, more people to think about playing the jurisdictional game, like pick, look at some of the different jurisdictions, look at some of the free private cities out there, and, yeah, look, we'll put all the links in the show notes, everybody," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:17", "start": 3556.88, "text": "but, yeah, look StephanLivera dot com and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }