{ "episodeId": "SLP586", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew": { "name": "in kind redemption with Jeff Yew", "role": "guest", "tag": "IN" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:01", "start": 0.56, "text": "Hi everyone, and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast, a show brought to you by Swan dot com, the best place to buy Bitcoin with free buys on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin purchases. Joining me today is Jeff Yew. Now, I've known Jeff for, for years actually, back from the Australian Bitcoin community back when I was living in Australia. Now, as many of you know, I'm in Dubai, but, it's great to chat with Jeff. Jeff is now the CEO and founder of Monochrome, who are basically setting up, setting up an So Jeff, first of all, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "00:32", "start": 32.36, "text": "Hey Stephane, nice to meet you, and good to be back on the show." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:36", "start": 35.78, "text": "Yeah, it's been a while, and, I know lots has been going on, well, in Bitcoin all around the world, but I'm sure there's plenty of updates, in terms of Bitcoin in Australia as well. So, just give us, people, just, give us a little bit of a background on, what Monochrome is and w-where you guys are up to so far." }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "00:54", "start": 53.98, "text": "Yeah" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "01:01", "start": 60.52, "text": "Digital currency exchange, so always been in the Bitcoin space. We, we started doing stuff like, building out the Lightning Network in my previous life, in, in, in Brisbane. So we made the Brisbane Airport accept Lightning payments in twenty eighteen, like, a couple months after, LNDs actually went live. you know, then back then you have the Sync wallet and stuff, and then you got Wallet Satoshi, and then that was like long before, you know, El Salvador had the Bitcoin Beach project. Industrial is a hotspot, sort of fast forward Till today, you know, Monochrome, you know, we've, we started, we started off as an asset management business, sort of focusing on, regulated access to Bitcoin, really to, you know, give, empower people to get into the asset class in a comfortable way, you know, Bitcoin in the sh- in the form of securities, share, it's, something very, very convenient and very familiar, asset, asset class to a lot of people. So, for, for those that wanna explore, so dipping the Holding Bitcoin or those that want to diversify their ways of holding Bitcoin, you know, an ETF is something that sort of like is quite popular. so we've, we've launched the, the first ever ETF in Australia that holds Bitcoin. there is, we're not the first Bitcoin related ETF in Australia, don't want to caveat that, but we're certainly the first ETF in Australia that holds Bitcoin directly in ETF, and that's the Modern Bitcoin ETF under the ticker IBTC. so- So far so good, it's going well. You know, we've seen some sell-offs in the US ETFs, but the market of Bitcoin ETF has been stacking, ever since launch, it's been adding flows day after day. it's good to see" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:47", "start": 167.42, "text": "Yeah, great. And so, can you give us the timeline then on the different Bitcoin ETFs in Australia, and when did IBTC go live?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "02:55", "start": 175.19, "text": "Yeah, so the big, the big story really comes when, ASIC, which is the Australian Securities and Investment Commission, it's kind of like the SEC and CFTC of Australia, they regulate securities, right? And financial products. they've came up with a framework to essentially let, ETF issuers to be able to put Bitcoin in a retail- an ETF is a retail fund, and that requires a special license and, asset created a licensing category for crypto assets, in late of twenty twenty-one, and so throughout the process, you know, Monocrome and our responsible entity, we went after the process, sat there, you know, got the authorization in August of twenty twenty-two, in approval for the Bitcoin, Bitcoin ETF scheme, we've launched an Allocated Lake of the ETF, in two 2023, and then now in 2024, in, the 4th of June, we've actually launched the ETF live on the stock exchange here, which is CBO Australia." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:57", "start": 236.87, "text": "Interesting. And so I'm curious, was there any, like- Did the US Bitcoin ETF have anything to do with it, or was it kind of like the Australian regulators and the Australian government were always viewing it independently in their own way?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "04:11", "start": 251.24, "text": "Yeah, I think, I think I guess that's the, that's the thing that people, people always, you know, people have the misconception that, oh, in Australia was really sort of waiting on, on the US, but it's actually not true, given that, the Monarch Bitcoin ETF, as the product itself, was actually greenlit in twenty twenty-two, way ahead of any US Bitcoin ETF movements. But, you know, you did mention sort of the different types of ETFs. We've, we've landed in a very awkward spot in Australia where, there are three Bitcoin ETFs in the market or three, what I call, one Bitcoin ETF and two Bitcoin related ETFs in Australia. they're all structured differently, and that's, I think, that's a problem that we wanna talk about today, right? if you look at the US, all the Bitcoin ETFs are exactly the same. The ETF holds a Bitcoin, the Bitcoin's holding cold storage Yeah, you know, these products, which custodian do they use, what are the fee structures, and then you make a call. But in Australia, all the three Bitcoin ETFs are set, are set up differently. The Monocoin Bitcoin ETF is like the US ones, it holds a Bitcoin in the ETF, which is what I think a spot Bitcoin ETF is, you know, although that, you know, the function that we have over the, the US one is that you can actually do in kind, subscriptions and redemptions, that's actually pretty powerful, we Bitcoin, related ETFs are effectively feeder funds. one feeds into an unlisted, wholesale only trust, so the retail fund holds shares in a wholesale trust, and then the other one is a retail offshore ETF, so the retail fund holds an offshore, Bitcoin ETF in the US. So, we've seen sort of a couple of, innovation in the space, but really, there's only one ETF right now in Australia, that's the Monarch Bitcoin ETF, that, is licensed directly hold Bitcoin. On an ETF level, I think that's a really big step up from, sort of the regulatory move, move into sort of crypto assets and Bitcoin products, and also, you know, the investor protection that was set up around alongside it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:15", "start": 375.23, "text": "Gotcha. So can you elaborate a bit on the differences there? Because you were saying essentially one of these other ETFs holds shares in a trust, the other is an offshore ETF. What is the actual difference for the end user, the end customer who's deciding, okay, which of these three am I going to buy? What are the actual differences for them?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "06:34", "start": 394.48, "text": "Yeah, so like if you categorize both, there are the ind-indirect Bitcoin ETF and the direct Bitcoin ETFs. The Bitcoin ETFs that we're all familiar with, so with the US ones, is that they're all directly held. So the Monarch Bitcoin ETF is directly held to directly hold assets like Bitcoin in an ETF, there is a long list of, of checklists to go through with the regulator on how you deal with custody, how do you get your custodian to, to make sure that they meet the Switzerland custody requirements RG133, the insurance requirement along side the product, what kind of benchmark, what sort of certification as a benchmark, the, the benchmark provided for the price of Bitcoin needs to be, and also, you know, things, as, as detail as, you know, the experience of the, of the, asset manager on the issue of the product to deal with, sort of these sort of asset classes. I think it kind of stems off from that ASIC views that crypto is a very different, product compared to others Sort of traditional, you know, shares, commodities, and, and all all kinds of equity products out there, because we know, there is that non-recoverability of Bitcoin transactions, and also because it's all being-- it's a, it's a digital, it's a digital asset, there is inherently sort of different risks to sort of deal with it. So a proper framework is sort of looked, has, has re-regulatory look through into the processes of these things being set up and how these things are run. It's like, it's like saying that, you know, if you're buying a car, that comes with a, a seat belt that is probably, pro-pro-properly sort of, regulated under, you know, the seat belt law in Australia, versus someone on Facebook Marketplace just give you, \"Yeah, this is a seat belt, it works like a seat belt, trust me, bro, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna save you in, in case of emergency,\" or chances are it will," }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "08:23", "start": 503.01, "text": "maybe not, maybe it's not gonna do that. Fidelfunds are essentially, not uncommon, you know, in the world of tradfi, in fact, it's very commonly used, but when it comes to, where sort of Bitcoin ETFs are, it's like there's a, there's law and rules that says how Bitcoin ETF should be run. instead, there are players that, sort of argue that regulatory position and say that, hey, if you're, if our ETF only holds shares, not Bitcoin, we don't need to go through the process to get certified to hold Bitcoin directly Buying on the benevolence and, and how these, how these structures are being set up, and you're accepting the risk, by investing in these products because you're supposed to read the fine print, but, we know that most retail investors, don't look past the marketing. the problem is that all these ETFs, though they're all different structures, they're all marketed exactly the same. Everyone calls himself Bitcoin ETF, everyone calls himself spot, well, it comes down to like there's really no legal definition of what a spot Bitcoin ETF is in Australia, so, it's a bit of a problem, you, you have sort of inherent regulatory risks in the product, you know, in, if, you know, one day, there's a step up of regulation to say that, hey, you know, this loophole can't continue, we need to close this, there, there would be potential implications to the unit holders in these funds that need to be, structurally sort of dissected and rebuilt, you know, potentially, and there's also, hidden potential- weaknesses in a product that, you know, out of, out of, out of good intentions, just because that they're not sort of, they're not sort of structured properly in accordance to a framework that's specific tailored to crypto assets like Bitcoin. they're just, just different. So I think fee the funds are, are cheap products, like you, when you buy, when you buy a, a Mercedes car, you know, the dealership would say that, hey, you know, that's the, that's the cheap model and they're expensive Expensive model, the expensive model gives you sort of like radar guidance, Apple CarPlay, blah, blah, blah, and the cheap model just gets you the bare bones, right? And some people are happy to just go with the cheap, cheap one because it's like, I don't need all this stuff. but what we wanna avoid is that people thinking they're buying that high-end sort of like the ones with the radar, cruise control, the ones with the CarPlay, and realize in the end of the day, they're not getting all these features. So I think the definition" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "10:58", "start": 658.19, "text": "disclosures and being upfront about what these products are and what it achieves for the investors is also very important, and, you know, I'm a big advocate of, cleaning up the clarity, the confusion of this, this, this scene over here. and I can relate to, how this will look confusing from the outside perspective, given that it's a really Australian pro-- Australian only problem. we don't have anywhere else, anywhere else that has Bitcoin ETF that has all Bitcoin ETF structured differently, and then it's up to the retail Investors go, go into the fine print and look for what, you know, what these things are and first then make a comparison. So I think, so it looks like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:36", "start": 696.34, "text": "it's kind, it kinda comes down to marketing. Like basically, you will need to market differently, and they are, as you said, they are kind-- they are all considered spot Bitcoin ETFs, even if, as you might wanna characterize other ETFs in a different way. So I guess what I'm hearing from you, it sounds like one of the key differences is going to be that, that you can offer other certain things and maybe there can be arguments made a-about the level of the custodian, and the, I guess, the level of recourse in case something breaks down, something goes wrong, maybe there's a, maybe a clearer chain, clearer path to a resolution, perhaps. I, I'm not an expert, I'm not, claiming any expertise there, but, if you had- To spell it out in a clean way. So I guess it sounds like the, the main difference is that you are directly holding Bitcoin, right? Like that's kind of the end of the day, that's the main difference. You are directly holding Bitcoin, competitors are indirectly holding Bitcoin. Is that fair to say?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "12:35", "start": 754.79, "text": "Yeah, that's right. And then the counterparty risk is really just on the ETF. Obviously, the ETF is very well, strongly regulated, tightly sort of controlled, set up and operated. So, versus something else that has a, it's an interposed structure, That is in the, in the picture, you know, if all, all goes well, that's fine, but, I think it's just like, you know, if you're, if you're dealing with something as delicate as Bitcoin and as long-term of investment as Bitcoin, you wanna make sure that you don't get that call in the middle of the night saying something's went wrong, you know? We did something wrong, we're gonna fix it and this, this is gonna cost you this or it's gonna affect you that. So, it's about, you know, you don't have to sort of worry about looking to your back and, what happens if the regulator closes a loophole, how will it changes your holding and, potentially sort of, tax implications as well from this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:27", "start": 807.2, "text": "Gotcha. Okay. and so just comparing into, so people can understand like an overview, what are the fees like for the Monochrome Bitcoin ETF?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "13:35", "start": 814.63, "text": "Yeah, so the Monochrome Bitcoin ETF is actually, there's, there's two parts of the ETF. That's a, it's a dual access product. So the on market structure where people purchase through the, through the stock exchange, it's, ninety-eight basis points, so zero point ninety percent. and the off market, the off market is, it's, it's negotiable for wholesale investors. Build products on top of iBTC, obviously they're gonna get a different price than what, what they're paying on the stock market, so change. So the-- it is, it is, structurally, you know, a little bit more expensive, but, you know, Eric, I think people just need to understand what the differences are and, you know, how this benefits them. the in-kind, subscription and redemption stuff that we'll elaborate more on, we'll talk about why, you know, these, these Prices." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:28", "start": 868.47, "text": "Interesting. Okay, so, yeah, look, I think the first reaction most people are gonna have is, \"Wow, point nine eight percent, that's, you know, quite a lot if you think about if that's an annual fee, you, you know, just under one percent per year, that's the amount you're paying.\" Now, I guess the argument could be, \"Look, this isn't intended for...\" it could be that this is for the people who are newer to Bitcoin, they need an easy pathway in. It could also be argued that, Maybe the in-kind redemption part, and we'll get to that, maybe that's also part of that. But I guess in your view, are people, are austral-- put it this way, are Australian investors gonna think, \"Well, why pay zero point nine eight percent when I can go over and buy a US Bitcoin ETF at point two five or something in that range?\"" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "15:13", "start": 913.42, "text": "Yeah, that's a, that's a good question, right? So if they, if they have, they have the ability to do it, they, they are free to do so. the, the benefit of the Monero Bitcoin ETF, the distinction against the US ones, you can actually take, you can actually withdraw the Bitcoin out without triggering a tax consequences, obviously subject to zero and tax advice. this is actually quite significant because you don't want to be ending up in a situation where, you know, the whole Airbnb and Uber model, right? It's like they slash And then once there's no competition, you're stuck in the product. And as long as, like, imagine this in a scenario where, when it gets to a certain point and it's like, \"All right, we're gonna stop making money on these products, we can't just lost lead to, to upgrade these products just to fight for customers,\" and then, as long as the, say, in twelve months time or twenty-four months time, Bitcoin's much higher, everyone has an unrealized gain in, in the asset in the ETF holding, you know, Slowly creeps up, as long as it's the fees, absorbing the, the increasing fees is less painful than cashing out and paying taxes on, on the, on the gains and then buying the Bitcoin back in a different structure, you're stuck. Whereas in the Monocron Bitcoin ETF, yes, you might, you know, there is costs obviously involved to run the product, so ninety-eight basis points, it's, to, to us, that sort of like where we sort of price it fairly, but in the end of the day, right, if you decided that your" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "16:39", "start": 999.17, "text": "Take the Bitcoin out and put somewhere else, cold storage, self-custody is up to you. that is the, two way, you know, we keep this two way street open, versus something that is like locked in, because you never know, you never know when you're gonna, when, when you get, when you're gonna need to take the Bitcoin out of self-custody, or give yourself a more strategic positioning in the future so that you don't lock yourself in. Because in the end of the day, right? It's like most people don" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "17:09", "start": 1028.83, "text": "The big, big investors, you know, they, they would come in through the off-market channel, you know, get us, get a rebate from us, from a volume discount or whatever that is, and you're not actually making a big difference in a, in a, in a, in a, in the grand scheme of things when you're paying, you know, twenty basis points or ninety basis points for eight thousand dollar investments in, in Bitcoin, versus a potential more costly, restructuring process, in down the line where, you know, it really, really kicks Bias regret, and that's not what we want for the investors in, in, in our fund structure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:44", "start": 1063.69, "text": "Interesting. And so I understand that then, as you're saying, it's mainly a consequence around capital gains taxes, or that's one of the main reasons it might be worthwhile. So I guess hypothetically, in some of the other Bitcoin ETF situations, you might need to actually pay a capital gain on the way out. So as an example, let's say the, the new coinart has decided, okay, I'm gonna start with this Bitcoin ETF, maybe for whatever reason. reason they can't, buy it just normally on an exchange like everybody else, like as in directly buying Bitcoin, they decide to go with an ETF. If they were to buy one of the ETFs that doesn't have in-kind redemption, then they're gonna, like, depending on what country and so on, in Australia, you know, it's gonna get, I think it's over one year, you get a fifty percent discount and, then it's added to your assessable income, so it's basically at the, you know, your marginal tax rate, whether That's how much you're gonna be paying on, on the amount, that you've gained. And so, you know, if Bitcoin now is call it sixty thousand, and who knows in a few years' time if it's multiples of that, that could be a pretty significant tax bill. So I guess that's the thing people have to really weigh up. when it comes to that. So I guess this comes down to the in kind, subscription and redemption. I'm curious as well, is this parallel to, in the US, there were some of the ETF analysts talking about this idea of in kind or in kind versus cash create. Is that a similar distinction there? And basically in the US, they weren't allowed to have in kind, they had to have cash create and redemption, right?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "19:20", "start": 1159.87, "text": "Yeah. So, the cash create means that the ETFs, and this is more specifically determined in the US, it's more tailored to the market makers. So, when, authorized participants like market makers wants to create units to, to sort of fill the, the books, they can only do it with cash. where some market makers, they already sit on a stack of Bitcoin, they wanna use their Bitcoin to quickly get in and out of position, you know, it's, it's a bit more frictionless. some jurisdictions allow for it, and some jurisdictions like Bitcoin, like, like, like the US Bitcoin ETF just don't allow for that. I don't, I don't know exactly the reason why they don't allow it, 'cause, it was kind of a last minute change, as we recall. but in, in the context of" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "20:07", "start": 1206.9, "text": "options to, cash and in kind, subscription and redemptions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:13", "start": 1213.21, "text": "Gotcha. And so that means hypothetically you could put your Bitcoin into the ETF to be held by the fund and, I guess, custodied by, you know, your custodian, or withdrawn out if they, you know, on the, on the other way, on the way out. So I guess that's the main trade-off there, right? That, that's the main, distinction. So I'm curious, why would people put Bitcoin in? I guess- So I'm, I'm thinking of, of like, you know, not your keys, not your coins, get your hardware wallet and all that. But I'm cur-- what are the, is it some kind of specific institutional setup? Like, why would people do that?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "20:46", "start": 1246.47, "text": "Yeah, I guess, I guess it's like, you know, the way I look at Bitcoin is that Bitcoin's an asset class is really unique because it has the ability to do self custody. Like not many asset classes have the ability to do it. But in the end of the day, right now, people's circumstances are different, everyone's life circumstances, starts differently and changes as well. So, having a diversified way of holding your Bitcoin is really up to the people, up to the investors to decide. something like an ETF, obviously, it's got pros and cons. Like, you know, you're holding the Bitcoin under a custodial structure, although it's, regulated and everything, but the same, back to the not your keys, not your coin and at the end of the day, we've seen people that has, very comfortably holding a lot of Bitcoin in self custody, and then, you know, they go through a rough patch in their life and they click on the long, wrong link and there you go, see you later. So, it's, it's just, it's just a wave for what we, w-wave of people that realize now with the ETF, it's just another way for them to diversify their holdings. and potentially what we've seen in the market is that, people, there are firms in Australia that has, has, that's, accepting and has accepted, IBTC for eligible, security-backed borrowing, eligible assets for that Look at it as, you know, if I put into this as my Bitcoin in a security form, gets me more access to sort of more tradified products like security-backed lending, borrowing and using the securities to borrow against, it's, arguably safer than borrowing my Bitcoin because, you know, if I do a Bitcoin loan, Bitcoin actually leaves cold storage, whereas in the, in, in the sort of securities lending, the Bitcoin never leaves. So, unless there is a, unless you sort of walk away from the loan and, and then- And the, the loan provider has to sort of sell down the Bitcoin. but in the end of the day, it's just up to the investors decide what's really good for them. that's why we keep the, keep this sort of more flexible. It's a strategic sort of, future-proving, provisions that we've intentionally created, and ultimately, right? It's like we're building a Bitcoin product, we're not building a TradFi product that has exposure to Bitcoin. A real Bitcoin product should allow people to take the Bitcoin out, 'cause that's actually Bitcoin in it. So if you're, if you're buying something here that only allows you to take out fiat, then you're just buying a fiat product that just happens to track the price of Bitcoin. It's not a real Bitcoin product. So, I guess there's a bit of a Bitcoin nerd in me speaking there, but, you know, that's one of the things that, one of the reasons on top of what we mentioned earlier of why we decided to go with the structure." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:25", "start": 1405.41, "text": "Yeah, For certain individuals, and again, I'm not recommending this, like for most individuals, yeah, not your keys, not your coins, hodl your coins, et cetera, but, maybe at an institutional level, maybe at a very high net worth level, there may be some people who wanna put in a portion, And in, for them, it might say, make sense to do a small portion of their overall stack that they wanna, let's say they wanna borrow against their coins, and maybe, that could also be in a situation where they want to get cheaper cost of capital, right? Because maybe, as an example, I've seen, maybe in the US case, I've seen, organizations like Interactive Brokers, and they're international as well, but I know they were offering people to do stuff like borrow against your shares at six or seven percent, something like this. Whereas if you compare that to, let's say you go to a Leden or Unchained Capital or someone else to borrow against your Bitcoin, that cost might be higher, that might be more like fifteen percent. So I guess that is a fair difference that people have to think about, are they willing to take that now? To be clear, are they willing to take that risk of, you know, putting the coins in somebody else's custody? but for certain people, maybe that's worth their while. I'm not saying I recommend that, but I'm just trying to explain for the circumstance Everyday hodler, but maybe there are other institutions that have their own institutional reasons for, taking a different course, of action. So I guess that's how I'm seeing that. Do you see that as, I guess right now, I guess right now it's early days, but I guess in the future, let's say volume grows, liquidity grows, at that point you might see more of a market and more, let's say financial institutions who may offer this kind of collateralized loan product against a stock." }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "25:15", "start": 1515.18, "text": "We're already starting to see that already. So, we've, we've seen terms being flowed through our doorsteps of, lenders that are, that are offering terms For iBTC specifically, and this comes back to the way that, like, iBTC is structured, we are the only proper licensed Bitcoin ETF, meaning that the Bitcoin's licensed the whole Bitcoin directly. If someone provides a loan, it's usually a long-term product, you don't wanna be halfway through the loan term and something changes to the product, you know, dramatically that you have to then change the whole setup, like, that's gonna be, it's gonna be cata-catastrophic. And that's why, like, you know, if we're working with, Self-directed retail clients, they might just buy whatever cheaper, cheaper on the face value because they, they're not considered a lot of, stuff that might be relevant to them, in the future, or just like, you know, they just wanted to take a six months bet on Bitcoin and, and never see, never touch it again, right? But if you're talking about long-term product, whether you're a financial advisor that is offering this product into your platform or, building a business on top of IBTC, like another managed fund that sort of diversifies into it ETF holding that gets you exposure to Bitcoin, you want to make sure you don't have to be constantly looking at the back, so something might change fundamentally for the product that it will stop working for you. So, yeah. And, and also I wanna add that, on the, on the custody, self-custody side, it's like, you know, look, we are all Bitcoiners, right? Or we're big advocates of self-custody, and that's like the biggest, biggest thing about Bitcoin, right? It's like you can do that, you Calls, over and all these kind of products. That's why we structure the product in a way that you can actually take Bitcoin out to self-custody when you decide you want to or you're ready to. So, we've seen, we've seen sort of like two types of buyers for the Monarch Bitcoin ETF, looking at the, the numbers that we've crunched. there are these sort of small little chunks that comes in, these are sort of like self-directed retail flows that comes from the brokers like Comsec, NapTrade, Superhero, Stake, and all these, platforms, brokerages, but there are also like the big chunks that comes from, sort of, sort of more sort of, like internet brokers, or, Schwann Partners and ISA, big sort of firms. So we've seen like two kinds of investors and, really sort of, you know, appreciate the flexibility of the structure, you know, the, the concrete of the regulatory position of IBTC, and I think that gives people the assurance to sort of like work on listing, with a more long-term view because Bitcoin is a long-term asset, right? Gonna, gonna be here for a long time. It's gonna, Bitcoin's gonna be here forever, it's gonna be here longer than we're gonna be, be breeding on the planet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:01", "start": 1680.55, "text": "Right, yeah, we'll be here for a long, longer than we are, and so, yeah, it's important to, yeah, understand some of these different market aspects, how these things are playing together. So I guess in terms of, who is this opening the market up to, right? Like there'll be random people who maybe they wouldn't have gone to an Australian Bitcoin exchange, but they do have a Comsec account, maybe, and m By that. And so that, I guess, makes it a lot easier for people, and I guess the other point is that it makes it a lot easier for some of these big regulated funds and things like this, now that there's kind of this- instrument, i-it's now opening the door more for some of these different b-because in, in Australia, there's these massive superannuation funds, I guess it's opening the door for some of them to now also look And have an easier pathway to buying Bitcoin, whereas historically maybe it was a bit, they had to go to an exchange and sort of think about custody and think about all these other things. Now it's more like, oh, okay, here's this regulated instrument that you can buy, it's already existing inside the regulated environment." }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "29:05", "start": 1745.14, "text": "Yeah, and, and one distinction about buying Bitcoin on an exchange from a pricing perspective, right? We all know the regulatory difference of a crypto exchange and an ETF, but from a pricing perspective, people often overlook that, all right? I'm paying management fees on an ETF, but It's actually on a, on a, on a benchmark, it's actually a regulated certified benchmark provider that tells you what the fairest price of Bitcoin is, whereas on an exchange, you're getting whatever price that shows up on your screen, right? So even if they say that you're getting zero percent, trading fees, but you're, you, you might be getting less Bitcoin upfront because the Bitcoin price has really has hidden spreads in it, whether it's by design or just by the nature of some of these platforms are operated, they're, they're just operationally heavy because they" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "29:51", "start": 1791.01, "text": "People don't realize that even if you buy Bitcoin from a crypto exchange in Australia, you know, order book exchanges sides, and, you know, the liquidity, the problem becomes bigger with, with order book changes because AUD, AUD Bitcoin order books are really shallow. but in the end of the day, most crypto exchanges in Australia are brokerages, they're using your AUD to go change it to USD and take the USD to buy, you know, BTC or ETH or all this kind of crypto. So in the end of the day, there's, there's these sort of hidden procedures that People don't really see. So if you're just looking at the face value, it's like, \"I'm paying management fees, I'm getting like free here,\" but nothing's free in this world, right? and you might be getting less Bitcoin up front and be oblivious to it, and then versus something that is probably, pro-probably, properly benchmarked, and that's sort of why, using a regular-- That's one extra benefit of using a regular product, you have the assurance that, you know, you're not gonna" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:49", "start": 1848.97, "text": "get, you And as you said, some, exchanges kind of have like, they might have low fee, but actually you're paying kind of in the spread per se, and especially if you're doing larger orders, that's where maybe you-- that's where you can get like a slippage kind of factor happening, in some of the less-- especially in less liquid markets, where maybe you think you're gonna get it at this price, but if you-- especially if you kind of make the mistake of doing a market order at a certain larger volume, now, boom, you could" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:21", "start": 1881.03, "text": "Bitcoin. So that's certainly a fair point, people have to, you know, consider the right way to execute. Now, of course, to be fair, there's also OTC desks, and some of those OTC desks also exist to try to give you that as well. Like, let's say you're doing a big order, then they can sort of give you, okay, we're gonna give you, you know, a hundred Bitcoin at this particular price, and so now that's helping you deal with that, but, you know, people have to be aware of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:51", "start": 1911.01, "text": "City that, Monochrome Bitcoin ETF is using, what can, you know, a-and can you say who it is?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "31:59", "start": 1918.61, "text": "Yeah, the custody, the custody provider is, it's, it's public. It's, we use Gemini cust-custody. So, Gemini's, Gemini's historically was working with the largest bank in Australia, Commonwealth Bank, to create a, a, a crypto, brokerage app. You know, that, that, that product sort of went into, went into ice when, sort of the Luna Terra stuff happened and then sort of the, the Behold on the market happened. But, that's, that's where sort of why, why we selected Gemini, is because they were the most ready custodian, that has experience, wrapping their, their product into the Australian context, and that's what something the regulator really appreciates, is that even though you're a regulated custodian in the US, doesn't mean that your order legally a regular custodian under this new, crypto, ETP framework in Australia, you still have to do the, you still have to take the time to, to get your stuff wrapped up, show that demonstrator you have, what it, what it takes, all the, all the structures, all the legal documents that proves and all the, the, the, the, the audit reports and, really just to set up, you know, a really focused instance just for Australia to really be a proper custodian for an E So this is one thing goes back to like the feeder funds. The feeder funds don't need to, don't need to worry about this, provision. it's really up to the, the stock exchange to go like, \"Yep, we're comfortable with, with, with Coinbase, we're comfortable with, you know, this guy, that guy.\" whereas a, a framework that, you know, custody approval process is a bit more robust." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:38", "start": 2017.89, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by CoinKite dot com, the creators Hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on the, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now, you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Bep2 Desktop or Nunchuk as a few examples. Now you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices, such as passphrases. You can use seed x or, or my favorite is multi-signature. Now, if you're starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. But I believe these devices are great at helping secure your coins, especially as you start to migrate up into multi-signature security. But don't be disheartened or don't be- You're scared away, they are accessible, and I think you actually do learn about Bitcoin in the process. So to get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code livera to get a discount on your cold card. The lead sponsor of this show is Swann dot com, and Swann has a mission to onboard millions of people into Bitcoin. I also work at Swann, helping on some educational content for the team. Now, the team have also put out a new version of the Swann Bitcoin application, which is available on your smartphone, whether it's Apple or Android. Now, this app has a really fast onboarding experience. It's now just a few minutes to go from zero to Bitcoin. So if you are standing there with your family or friends and you might have been having trouble trying to get them onboarded, well, try this now. Recommend Swan Bitcoin, and you can do this while you're standing next to them. They can click through, and most of them will be able to set up and do this in just a few minutes. Also, the team at Swan have rolled out a new promotion. There are zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys. So this is a great way to go from zero to Bitcoin and in a guided and managed way. So reminder, go to your app store or Play Store and search Swan Bitcoin to get onboarded with Bitcoin today. This show also brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I use it all the time when I'm checking transaction fees and trying to understand what is the state of Bitcoin's mempool. You can search transactions, historical as well as unconfirmed ones, and also see a great way to visualize things across the Lightning Network, Liquid, mining, and so much more. Also, for those of you with an enterprise, they offer a mempool dot space enterprise program. So for those of you as Part of that enterprise program, you might wanna get increased API limits, and you might wanna have increased access to the team in terms of feature requests. You might wanna have special branding in terms of how your custom instance of mempool dot space looks. So to sign up for that, go to mempool dot space slash enterprise. And now back to the show. Okay, so I guess the other question that people will probably have, especially the more Bitcoin-- the ideological Bitcoiners, many of whom are, you know, people- Like myself and listeners, and probably yourself, and also, a lot of us, I guess, people are asking the question, are institutions good for Bitcoin, or could they somehow- Come to influence the protocol later down the track. Now, to be clear, you know, I'm sure Monochrome is, is a much smaller fish compared to, let's say, the, you know, the, the Black Rocks and the Fidelities of the world holding, you know, hundreds of thousands of coins, but, I'm curious your thoughts there. Is there a risk that, let's say, a lot of coins end up inside institutions and then do some of these institutions end up influencing the protocol or, what do you think there?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "37:36", "start": 2256.06, "text": "Yeah, I think, I think like, you know, throughout the block size wars, we've seen that, no matter how much coins you have or cash balance you have, you really have no say in Bitcoin. Bitcoin's, Bitcoin has nodes, you know, the decentralization of the node network is really, really sort of there to relay, relay, relay the true version of Bitcoin, right? So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:54", "start": 2274.32, "text": "I'm not too worried" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "37:58", "start": 2277.86, "text": "about that. Yeah. I mean, it's, yes and no. I mean, go on, I'll, I'll, I'll answer you Because ultimately their decision making on what's good for Bitcoin will be very different from what we view as what's good for Bitcoin, because we live and breathe this space. We were here in the dark ages of the asset class, you know, in years since I personally been here since twenty thirteen. Like, you know, we, we do this because we love this stuff, right? Whereas in a, in a big fund, they will, they go like, \"Aha, this is profitable, let's do something.\" But any other day, they don't have the ethos of really why this, why this is important. I think Bitcoin's the most important public utility project that, you know, in, that, that is in our lifetime to build. It's a once in a generation thing that we really have to protect. So if you have, bad decision making on, a, so a leader at what, what people deem as a leader in the You know, it's not gonna really change Bitcoin, but it might slow down, useful progressions that Bitcoin needs in order to help people that not necessarily, will be under the radar of this big corporate giant, right? And at the end of the day, right? For example, the Fogg policies and Bitcoin ETF, if you look into the Fogg policies in a lot of the US Bitcoin ETF, it does say something like, you know, the, the issuer will decide what, who's the dominant chain to follow, right? Whereas in our- Perspectives, we made it very clear, it's the one with the most, proof of work, and this is something that only Bitcoin will pick up, right? and this is something that one of the small differences, but you can see that, when you extrapolate out to many decisions in the future, this might be a risk. But in the end of the day, right, Stefan, like, Bitcoin's very, very, like, who's, who's for us to say, you know, us the platform to say that we can or can't use Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:54", "start": 2394.39, "text": "To dig into here, I think, I mean, you're right, at the end of the day, there's this kind of Bitcoin is the money of enemies, right? And so there are times where I sort of see some Bitcoin is kind of going off against like random institutions, and at the same time, it's like, hang on, how do you propose to stop them buying Bitcoin or using Bitcoin? Like, if you really believe Bitcoin is the money of enemies, then yeah, like, you know, if you-- But I, I, I would also say I think there are risks, Because one of them, as you said, yes, economic no-- you know, running your own Bitcoin node is part of how you determine what Bitcoin is. Of course, you know, I run my Bitcoin node and I know you run your Bitcoin node, but, There's also a point that having a number of coins could potentially help under certain scenarios. So as an example, and I'm sure you were, you were around, so I'm sure you know this, but at the time of, SegWit 2x, there was, as an example, there was a futures market on Bitfinex. So Bitfinex had this token B1x and B2x. So large holders were able to kind of put some coins on the platform and sell one and buy the other and so on, and that was able to, I guess- Influenced the market in a certain way, to help people sort of see what they thought was the, you know, the true Bitcoin. They didn't, because there was a lot of people who didn't want two X, and that showed, right? I think From memory, it was something like point eight five was the B one X token and point one five was the B two X token. That was kind of roughly, you know, loosely speaking, what it was. So it's kind of like, yeah, the nodes matter, but also there is an element of market, selection. There's an element of, you know, large holders can try to, let's say, dump the fork that they don't like, as an example. So I'm curious, what do you think there?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "41:44", "start": 2504.02, "text": "Yeah, I think, I think like, you know, I don't see that in the long term you can, you can stop Bitcoin in its tracks. You can slow it down for sure, but in the end of the day, I think that all this stuff that has happened, right? From, you know, Bitcoin XT, and then you got, you know, Bitcoin Cash all this, all these experiments that has come and go about, oh, we should change Bitcoin. In the end of the day, right? It, it only, it only slows down progression of where Bitcoin should be, but in the flip side, it also shows people Don't bother. You know, don't try to do that shit again, right? And I think that if, say, for example, if Bitcoin Cash didn't happen, we will still be debating, or we will still be debating, hey, why don't we incre-increase the block size in twenty twenty-four, right? And the fact that it hasn't happened because, you know, that has happened and people realize it's a failure. so I think that, I always tell, you know, my team is that everything has to happen, everything that will happen and has happened will for Bitcoin to succeed. So it really has to go through this process of like, yeah, whoever wants to attempt to take over Bitcoin, let change it, let them be, right? You can't stop them, but they will fail eventually, right? It'll cost them a lot of money, and, eventually it will just show people that it just rules out another attack vector of Bitcoin, makes Bitcoin stronger." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:06", "start": 2585.94, "text": "Yeah, I see. So, yeah, I, I, as you said, there'll be, there will be things tried. some examples could be maybe the government says, \"Oh, you need to do a whitelist, or you need to do a blacklist of coins. You're not allowed to send to this place or that place.\" They may say things like, \"Oh, we wanna try to control the mining network.\" Now of course, that would be difficult because there's mining all around the world, and there's mining pools all around the world, but there are different arguments about, you know, Bitcoin mining centralization, block templates, things like this, and so, you know, there are instances where entities operating inside the regulated environment will obviously be a lot more subject to the whims of the government and the politicians of the day. And so, you know, that, that's, that is a downside, I think we have to acknowledge that. But also, to be fair, there is- There is a benefit also that, you know, the safety in numbers, right? And I think getting more people to have an interest in Bitcoin is also a good thing, and I think it's fair we have to sort of acknowledge both sides of the ledger there, because getting more people to hold Bitcoin meani- means that there'll be less people who wanna try to attack Bitcoin or make it illegal or regulate it out of existence, the more people who hold it. And so if there's institutions that allow- People's pension funds or their superannuation money to go into Bitcoin, then the-- it's kind of the safety in numbers point also applies that makes it harder to actually ban Bitcoin or stop it" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "44:31", "start": 2670.92, "text": "Yeah, and actually, you know, like, this comes back to like, re-reason that I'm, I'm not, I'm not sharing this with many people, the real reason why I, I noticed that I needed to We don't miss that because no one else is doing something like we do, right? A lot of Bitcoin native projects, they don't really venture out into the, the tradfi space. And, you know, even if they do, they're not really successful, they never really get anywhere because, you know, you really have to play a part to be accepted into that space, and we, we acknowledge that. And a lot of tradfi players, when they come into Bitcoin, they might not fully understand like, like the ethos of what Bitcoin is, and they might try," }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "45:11", "start": 2711.23, "text": "That sounds like a good idea, let's try it, right? Whereas we go like, we've tried this like five times, didn't work, bro. Like, so I, you know, I, I realize that it's very important to have, someone that is Bitcoin native play in, you know, play the game in that court, instead of just letting all of them, the tradfi players, just rushing into the space because they think they can make a lot of money from charging fees and all this kind of stuff and controlling, you know, who holds the most market share, et" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "45:41", "start": 2740.97, "text": "c Just, you know, you know, a mass adoption, or a important, i-important sort of, upgrade or, or you can say ossification, I believe ossification, but let's say this important upgrade on quantum, right? Quantum resistance. And then you have, no say in the sort of, the Bitcoin natives because we're all too small, and it's all the big cat five players making decisions on behalf of the network, something that important. So, you know, that's a bit high- Theoretical, but, you know, it's something that I see that it's, it's, it's a bit of a risk, 'cause like, 'cause in the end of the day, right? It's like we do this because we like Bitcoin, right? we do this because we like it, but the big traditional players, they do this because they-- their boss gives them a KPI to launch a certain amount of Bitcoin and grow a certain amount of stuff and, et cetera, like, it's we're different. Like, you know, we're not the same. like, we like this stuff, and we'll protect it to our, to our death, like, we'll die on this hill." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:43", "start": 2802.99, "text": "Okay, so, when it comes to the size of the market, can you s-elaborate a little bit the size, 'cause obviously Australia is a much smaller market, let's, let's be honest, but, can you just elaborate a bit on that, the, the size difference between the Australian market versus, let's say, the US market or others out there?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "47:01", "start": 2820.86, "text": "Yeah, Bigger, but, I believe that including, sort of cryptocurrency changes the, the investing population or the per capita, You know, person that invests in Bitcoin is higher in Australia, from memory. I'm not sure how this, how that has changed in the introduction of ETF, maybe that's equal or, or, or succeeded. But Australians do have a, a big, you know, influence on, really a lot of important sort of Bitcoin, movements, on top of the appetite for, for crypto. you, you know, you've seen that, you know, so for example, I'm, I'm in Australia, you come from wallet associated toshis right now in Australia. Yeah, it's a lot of, people that are really talented that really wants to make Bitcoin more accessible are here in Australia. So, in the end of the day, right? I think ETFs appeal to a different market. there's a lot of people that wouldn't be comfortable dealing with, crypto exchanges because they've seen all this stuff, the FTX happening and stuff, it's like, we're not gonna touch that or a family office like, we're not gonna touch Bitcoin until it's in an ETF. So the ETF is the first step for them, right? Once they feel comfortable, you know, they can continue to sit in the ETF and do whatever they want with the security, or, you know, if they decided that they wanna do self-custody, take the Bitcoin out, right? And that's really what," }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "48:32", "start": 2911.95, "text": "in the end of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:36", "start": 2915.65, "text": "Just in terms of Bitcoin in Australia in general, like what's, what's the scene like, from your perspective? How has it, grown?" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "48:47", "start": 2927.01, "text": "there's, there's a, there's two camps, right? There's the, the Bitcoin scene, which, you know, we, we've sort of grown, we've sort of, homegrown, Bitcoin team here, over here, like I, like I mentioned, there's a lot of, cool Bitcoin projects that originate from Australia, still run from Australia, but there's Investing base that are more retail driven on crypto changes, but ultimately, you know, we all start somewhere, right? A lot of Bitcoiners used to be, Sheekwiners, you know, but, you know, it doesn't go back the other way. So I believe it's important to give people access to, you know, these products, in a, in a re-really let them, let them go and experiment if it works for them, works for them, right? Yeah, at the end of the day, right? It's like the same way is like the same way of why, we say Bitcoin is for everybody, if, if someone decides Bitcoin isn't for them, we don't have to force people to go buy Bitcoin, it's their own choice, they can buy something else. but back" }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "49:47", "start": 2986.86, "text": "If you look at the diversity of the Australian economy, it's one of the most, lack of, for lack, lack of a better word, dumb, right? If you look at even Singapore, look at China, look at, you know, Korea, a lot of the Asian countries, and even in, in, in the West, the economy is very diversified. You got, you know, manufacturing, electronics, exports, imports, construction, yada yada. In Australia, it's property and mining. Like, if you look at the Harvard chart about diversification, it almost Just two colors, whereas most countries, any countries you click, even an African country that is, is, is still in its developing, sort of, developing nations, like, and I'm very bullish on, on Africa, by the way. Like, I think, I think sort of Asia and Africa is like the future for, for, for Bitcoin, but it's a different story. it's, it's something that really affects a lot of the older generations' acceptance to new ideas and new investment opportunities, because historically it's like, you know Mining works well, I made my money from mining, I made my my, my money from property, and there's a, there's a whole, you can, we can have a whole podcast about, you know, how Australia politics is really, protecting and, and making sure the housing market, keeps going, and that really kills the incentive for people to wanna take new risks to try new asset classes. So, yes, the younger generations that feel that, you know, maybe the game's not really tipping their favor, they would try something new. But we've seen the, you know, the resistance from, a lot more sort of all the generations that go like, \"I'm, I'm comfortable, you know, this has worked for me, for thirty, fifty years, do I really care about Bitcoin? Do I need to care?\" the answer is probably no, and then, you know I think over time, hopefully we can change that. Some of them do, if you go to, some of the Bitcoin Boosh Bash meetups here, you can see a diversified range of people from all walks of life, from different ages, that's good to see. But we still have, we still have this problem that a lot of people are too comfortable with the very circular investment, landscape in Australia." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:57", "start": 3116.54, "text": "Yeah, it's, it's funny you say that, but the, so the meme or the joke is that, oh, Australian, the Australian economy is all about houses and holes, bro. Like we just dig holes and dig resources and sell them, and it's all about housing and, you know, the housing property bubble that's going on. But, that seems to be the, the obsession, the craze. So as you said, a lot of the money is held by probably the boomer generation, and a lot of them are holding their wealth per se in properties, So that's extremely popular, but that said, there is also a, you know, a decent, I guess, culture of stock market investing also, but, I guess that's What's gonna change over time, because a lot of the younger generation will sort of come up thinking, you know, I think eventually they're gonna get to a point where they decide, why do I need to buy the bags of the boomers and buy their property when I can buy Bitcoin, right? And then there'll be all these other sort of the smarter boomers and Gen X people who have some wealth, they'll be thinking, okay, I need to buy Bitcoin to preserve my wealth. And so I think that's how it's gonna, it's likely to shift over time," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:02", "start": 3182.03, "text": "but, That's kinda how I'm seeing it anyway." }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "53:08", "start": 3187.65, "text": "Yeah, I think but we live, and we live in a very different time of when that, that worked for them. 'Cause interest rate environments are different, and more importantly, geopolitical tensions are different, right? We're probably living a moment in modern history where- Geopolitical tension and conflict is at its highest or it's brewing to be its highest, and something like property, right? In the end of the day, right? It's worthless in, in the face of a war zone. People say that, \"Yeah, I can't touch properties, I can't touch, you know, my gold bars, I can't, you know, I can, I can feel and touch, but I can't touch Bitcoin, so Bitcoin's no value.\" But I argue is that in the end of the day, right, all these investments and assets that people view, there are, there are only a script ownership by law, and law is as virtual as Bitcoin is, except law can change, whereas Bitcoin can't. So, it's, Bitcoin, Bitcoin's beautiful because it's, in 4/7, and the best thing is that it has no sovereign or political risk attached to it. So if you're, if you're talking about diversifying your assets from properties to, to farmland to like, you know, mining stocks and everything like that, you're still within that sort of asset classes that are attached, that have sort of a level of, attached political risk, right? What if your government, government progressively becomes more left, right? what if, doesn't happen in your generation, but maybe your kids' generation, how are you gonna protect That, all right. Bitcoin, we can, you know, we're comfortable, we know for, for a fact that, you know, nothing's gonna be able to affect Bitcoin because it's apolitical, it's ungovernable, the asset class, and it's, it's the most neutral asset in the world right now." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:49", "start": 3289.07, "text": "Yeah. So I think there's a lot to take in, and a lot of, new people are gonna be coming in over the next few years. Okay, none of us really-- none of us is crystal ball, we don't know, but need to be able to actually self-custody this asset. I do like that you have at least the option of, in-kind redemption, so that's at least useful that, you know, people can kind of get started here and then when they want, when they're ready, that's when they can, redeem and maybe that's gonna be a, a pathway for new people to come in and, and also a pathway for large pools of capital, whether that's superannuation and retirement accounts, whether that is, you know, non-retirement, just investment funds, So, I guess we'll leave it there. Listeners, check out, Monochrome. So the website is, monochrome dot au. I'll put, Jeff's links in the show notes. So, guys, hope, hope you enjoyed the show. And Jeff, thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "in_kind_redemption_with_jeff_yew", "time": "55:48", "start": 3347.77, "text": "Hey, thanks Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:49", "start": 3349.29, "text": "I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, make sure to give it a thumbs up and share it out there with your family and friends. Check out my website at stephanelivera dot com, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }