{ "episodeId": "SLP591", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing": { "name": "or some kind of stable value feature. Tony Klausing", "role": "guest", "tag": "OR" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:11", "start": 11.39, "text": "Hi everyone, and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast, brought to you by Swann dot com, the best place to buy Bitcoin. Joining me today to talk about stable channels is Tony Klausing. He is working on, Bitcoin development, and, yeah, we're gonna chat about stable channels. So first of all, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Stephan. So great, so look, there's a lot of different use cases and things, you know, being built out there in the quote unquote, quote unquote, crypto world, and obviously stablecoins, you know, is probably one of the big ones that, outside of Bitcoin hodling, is one of the major uses for people, and I know this is something you're working on, so do you wanna just give us, you know, just give us a quick, I guess, background on yourself and then we can sort of get into stable channels." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "00:56", "start": 56.28, "text": "Sure Bitcoin for a number of years, and, I first started working on Bitcoin, in the early 2010s. I was working on a crowdfunding website, and, My co-founder on that, on that, website, was an early Bitcoin adopter and introduced me to Bitcoin, and we, implemented it for payments on this, website, way back in the day." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "01:28", "start": 88.03, "text": "and then as, so I was really lucky to have a technical introduction to Bitcoin from, from that time. And at that time, in like then the early, the mid-two thousand teens, there weren't too many jobs in the Bitcoin space, and I took some, a couple of jobs use at, at banks that were trying to, play with blockchain-related technology. and so that's what I did for, yeah, for almost a decade in Chicago, is, was working, was working at banks. And most recently, I worked at, JPMorgan Chase, and I was, the technology lead and lead software engineer on building out their, digital assets trading network. And so, I worked with stablecoins at, JPMorgan Chase. And there, yeah, we built, We built a software tool that trades repurchase agreements, and the idea there is to take tokenized, cash versus tokenized treasuries and kind of swap them, and, and there's atomic swaps involved. And so I'm, I have a pretty, you know, deep background in the, software development and, I'll say Bitcoin adjacent, field. But I'm a longtime Bitcoiner and, I've always thought that the true innovation in the space lies with Bitcoin. And so, it- At the bank, I definitely saw where, the blockchain rubber hits the banking road, so to speak. And, even though their, this product that we worked on is in production and moves, you know, a lot of money, yeah, I wanted to work on Bitcoin and Bitcoin related technology. And so last fall, I left the bank to work full time on Bitcoin. And since that time, I've been working on" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:18", "start": 198.14, "text": "stable channels. Great, okay. So yeah, it sounds like I, I wasn't aware about that background aspect on you. And, so yeah, let's get into the stable channels aspect. I guess you, presumably, you see this as a big opportunity, right? What is the size of this opportunity?" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "03:33", "start": 212.85, "text": "Yeah, so stable ch- stable coins themselves have grown, tremendously. And even before stable coins, you know, there's obviously the US dollar is a huge brand and a huge market. And so there's this concept of like Eurodollar, which is folks that outside of the United States who want, US dollar exposure, and then- you know, they have US dollar denominated bank accounts in foreign countries, which is kind of crazy to think about, like how do they-- what's it backed by, right? You know? And, you know, now there's stablecoins, and stablecoins have grown from maybe ten billion dollars in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty to around one hundred and fifty billion dollars today. So, you know? It's a tremendous, it's a tremendously big market, and there are some tremendously profitable companies working on, stablecoins and stablecoin technology, but to date, they haven't really been built on Bitcoin, rails, and there's a number of challenges from the centralized stablecoins, like risks, risks of, bank runs like Tether exper- excuse me, Circle experienced with, the Silicon Valley Bank, asset freezers, freezes, asset seizures, investigations from law enforcement, all sorts of challenges that these stable coins might face down the road, and they might just kinda face kind of like a dumbing down of their capabilities, because they have this, centralized, choke point." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:07", "start": 306.66, "text": "Yeah, interesting. And so as you said, it sounds like the traditional legacy fiat system It had its own other issues that caused people to use these so-called euro dollars. And I guess, as I recall, maybe around twenty fourteen or fifteen, Tether was started initially because Bitfinex had issues on their fiat banking side, and that's what it was initially started on. And as I understand, it was on Omni to start, and then it's now on all these other, you know, random chains, and we'll get into some of the other contrasting approaches of how people can have a, a stable value. But, let's, let's- Let's go into stable channels then. So can you give us a little bit of an overview, what are stable channels? Like, how does, how would we contrast this with some of the other approaches, whether it's like a DLC kind of approach or a stablecoin approach or a, you know, other various approaches? So" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "06:02", "start": 361.97, "text": "I think first we might kind of categorize it in two buckets. And so there's fiat back stable coins and then there's, cryptocurrency back stable coins. And on the fiat back stable coins those are the centralized stablecoins that most people know today, like Tether and USDC. And, yeah, the way those systems work is they mostly run on Ethereum related technology and they issue an asset Like a token, and that's, you know, USDT for Tether, and that token is an IOU for, some fiat that's sitting in, like, a bank deposit. And so, that's how they work. And so, you know, the way Tether works mechanically, like the life cycle of a Tether token. Is that kind of like bigger players, like exchanges, might send, like a wire transfer from their bank into Tether's bank. I think the minimum might be like something like one hundred thousand, dollars. And then, the user who creates that mint transaction gets the tether tokens, and then this again might be a big exchange, like Binance or something. And then finance can, give those tokens to the users, and those users can trade peer-to-peer without having to do, KYC checks or whatnot. You know, they, they-- it's like when you get like Chuck E. Cheese tokens, and once you have the tokens, you can go play all the games, right? And so that's the real innovation with these centralized stablecoins, is that once you're kind of-- once you have the token, you can move it really quickly and, and somewhat easily, versus if you're not trying to do this You know, there'd be basically a KYC check on, on every single, transaction. So that's how, fiat-backed stablecoins, work, and we covered, you know, some of the risks of those. On the other side, there's, cryptocurrency backed stablecoins. And, and by comparison, with fiat stablecoins, these are maybe like only five or ten percent of, the market cap of the, fiat stablecoins, which are again around one hundred and fifty billion dollars. So cryptocurrency backed stable coins haven't caught on as much, and, the biggest one is probably in the Ethereum ecosystem called, DAI. and then in the Bitcoin ecosystem, you mentioned, something called DLCs. And, DLCs, haven't caught on too much, either. but the idea with, DLCs is to have, A, a counterparty to counterparty, trade relationship, and then basically you have an oracle that makes sure that, one side of that relationship, has enough Bitcoin to keep that user stable in dollars or to satisfy whatever type of derivatives contract that those two peers have. And so I can get into the details of, you know, how DCS work and how they're different with stable channels, or I can talk a little bit more about the, stable channels, as-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:05", "start": 545.38, "text": "Yeah, let's get into the stable channels. I think that's probably the interesting thing for people to understand, and I guess, I guess one other small one that, like, i-people might know in the Bitcoin world is Blink. They have this thing called stable Sats, right? Like that. And so that's also another model that we might talk about as well, that basically, as I understand, the- Think of it like Blink is kind of having a relationship with the exchange, and they're doing kind of a longing on shorting and things like that. I think it's a short basically, but they're basically maintaining that position so that their end users can have, in their view, a stable balance, and they can flip between kind of a USD balance and a, and a Bitcoin balance. and so I guess, I guess those are kind of- The broad buckets, right? Like you've got stable coins like USDT and so on, and they travel on various shit chains like Ethereum and Tron and whatever. You've got this kind of stable sats approach by Blink, and you've got, let's say, the DLT approach. And then so, can you explain to us now where stable channels fits or how does that work?" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "10:08", "start": 607.72, "text": "Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned stable sats 'cause, 'cause people always-- and that's from, Blink, and they always mention, mention that to me. And stable, stable sats is custodial, and, then DLCs and stable channels are, self-custodial. You, you have your Bitcoin. so yeah, stable channels, is another way to, peg a portion of your Bitcoin balance, to the value of some external asset, probably- Dollars. And so, the way it works is that, in a nutshell, we match up, longs, and Bitcoin longs, and so those are folks who are willing to like provide that stability service to someone. Like, for example, I wanna provide that stability service to you, Stefan. And then we match them up with, Bitcoin shorts or st- or stable receivers, stability receivers. And so an example that might be, yourself, Stefan, even though I doubt it. Yeah. so the idea- Yeah, but let's go with it, yeah, yeah. The idea is, okay, so let's say that we both put in, one Bitcoin into a regular Lightning channel, and stable channels uses regular Lightning channels, and then let's say the price is sixty thousand dollars. So then that means there's two- Two bitcoins in the channel, right? And one bitcoin's on your side and one bitcoin's on my side. And the idea is that we wanna keep you stable at sixty thousand dollars. And, you know, well, that's a challenge, right? Because the bitcoin price changes all the time. And so, how can we keep you stable at sixty thousand dollars? Well, with lightning, we have a new capability that has been unlocked, which is like extremely fast payments, extremely fast settlement. And that's the characteristic of Lightning that stable channels employs to maintain the peg. And so what we do is we settle very frequently, like every one minute, your Lightning node, Stefan, which is running the stable channel software, and my Lightning node, we both independently query, The latest price, and we get the price from five different, exchanges, just like regular price feeds, right? And then we take the median to protect against the median instead of the average, and, and to protect against some of them being wrong, you know, or, or compromised. So then if the price of Bitcoin goes down, then it takes more Bitcoin to keep you stable at $60, 000, and I send a payment over to you. And if the price of Bitcoin goes up, then it takes less Bitcoin to keep you stable at sixty thousand dollars so you send, a payment over to me. And so through that, like, just frequent updating of the channel, we keep you stable in terms of the external asset, like the dollar. and in the meantime, you know, we still get a number of the capabilities that Lightning unlocks, like if you wanted to do payments or if we wanted to add other features, we could, we could do that. But the basic mechanism Is using that very frequent settlement to keep you stable in, dollar terms." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:15", "start": 795.31, "text": "Interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting because, yeah, 'cause I mean, as we, as we've been speaking about, there's all these different approaches, and I guess the other one I should have mentioned as well, and I'm sure you're familiar, is, RGB style or Taproot assets style, which is like another way, or, which is another way altogether, of doing this kind of, of, of trying to achieve this. Now we don't wanna get too kind of confused with all the different details, but just, I guess the key thing that I'm understanding is with stable channels, it's like you're using the normal Lightning payment mechanism to keep us stable, or let's say, in this case, to keep my US dollar value stable, in this example, whereas in the DLC case, as I'm understanding, it's more like they kind of- Pre-compute and like have all these pre-signed transactions sort of ready and at the end, you know, you can sort of, keep yourself, stable that way. So I guess it's kind of a technologically a different way of achieving it." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "14:18", "start": 858.02, "text": "Yeah, so the difference between DLCS and, stable channels, yeah, it's a technological difference and then that kind of bleeds over into like an operational differences between the two, because with DLCS, It's a, it's also a two of two multisig, but it's like they use something called adapter signatures, and so that makes it kind of like a de facto, two of three multisig. And so that means that you really are giving some trust in the price oracle. And so in, in the case of DLCs, you, the price oracle actually does a digital signature, right? And then that digital signature is kind of what releases the funds one way or the other, like they settle the, Now, if, if both parties are co-operative, then you may not even need to use the price oracle. But in the DLC model, you do need to involve, a price oracle and you need to kind of have their cooperation, right? because they need to know, what they're signing and, you know, I'm not sure that the price oracle ecosystem has, developed, quite yet for the DLC-based approach. And then, so with DLCs, though, you might be able to get like better precision of your- trade outcome, assuming you have a trusted oracle and technologically things work quite well. So unlike DLT, stable channels don't involve the price oracles with a digital signature, we just use price feeds, price exchange feeds like regular HTTPS calls for the techies out there. In, in that case, you get the information to your node, and ultimately, you really do have, always have custody of your funds, and your node makes the final, the stable channel software makes the final decision. And whether or not I want to send that payment over to you, because stable channels is like, kind of like, stability as a service. It's like an ongoing streaming type of relationship versus DLCs, which might be set for a period of time, and you use the oracle to kind of like, yeah, again, like adjudicate the dispute" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:16", "start": 976.18, "text": "one way or the other. I see, yeah. And so in, in the stable channel case, let's say you and I, we set up this channel, as we said, what happens when we disagree? Like, if my node somehow disagrees with your node" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "16:31", "start": 990.98, "text": "Yeah, so I think there's a couple of cases, like kind of like lightning channels today, I think stable channels might work best between cooperative actors and people who, you know, that you already know or that you have a decent reputation with or service providers, right? If it were the case that, like, Phoenix were closing everybody's channels all the time, then it wouldn't work, and it's the same with lightning. so yeah, in the case of stable channels, we each have, each node has their own version of the truth, and so, you know If there's some sort of agreement, and I know you, then I can call you. If there's some sort of agreement and w- I really don't, you know, and we're just two randos on the internet or, or what, or we'll say pseudonymous folks on the internet, then, the normal channel closure procedures with Lightning would, would proceed. And so either, you know, I can say, \"Hey, let's, let's mutually close this channel,\" or if you're truly uncooperative, and I notice that, for example, you're, And the price goes against you, but I'm, I'm paying you, and the, you know, you can kind of see what's going on, right? Because of the frequent settlement. In that case, then you can do a unilateral close and exit the channel, the, the regular way with the lightning network" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:44", "start": 1064.13, "text": "technology. Gotcha. Just like you would close a normal lightning channel. Gotcha. Exactly. So we can basically think of it like a special lightning channel, that we open between us, that's really what it is, right? But you, you need this additional software Obviously. That's exactly right. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the failure modes or the downside aspects of it. One I can think of is probably similar to the DLT case where there's a limit to the amount of price movement that we can handle, right? Like especially if the price were to rapidly double or to rapidly halve, or is it, yeah, I guess it's doubling or halving, I guess those are kind of the limits, right? The halving is the trouble right now. Right. Right." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "18:29", "start": 1108.79, "text": "So in the case where we put in, s- one Bitcoin each, and the price was to begin at sixty thousand dollars, and the idea was to keep you at sixty thousand dollars, let's take three different scenarios. Let's say after one month, in the first scenario, the price didn't move at all, alright? Well, then in that case, alright, everything's fine, you still have sixty thousand, you-- Exactly. No, no, the price didn't change at all. No change, yeah. Right. Alright, now let's take another scenario where the price doubled. And so that means the price is now one hundred twenty thousand dollars. And that means that there's, there's still two Bitcoin in the channel, right? And that means that there's two hundred and forty thousand dollars, total in the channel, and that-- and you still have sixty thousand dollars on your side And that would equate to one half of one Bitcoin. So you've lost, you know, you've lost Bitcoin, right? But you've kept your stability. Right. Because I wanted to be" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:24", "start": 1164.09, "text": "fair, that's because I wanted stable value, right? So that's, that's fair enough in this case. That's because you wanted" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "19:28", "start": 1168.36, "text": "it," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:28", "start": 1168.44, "text": "yeah. Exactly." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "19:30", "start": 1169.82, "text": "And on the other hand, I had the leverage long position, and I now have one point five Bitcoin, which, is one hundred eighty thousand dollars. Right. You did well on this. Yeah. Exactly, I did well on that, and you, well, you know, you got what you wanted, I guess. And so maybe it's better than selling, and who knows, you know? So, now, okay, so that's the second scenario, is the price doubled. Alright, now let's take the, the case where the price halved. And so in that case, now the price of Bitcoin is, thirty thousand dollars. And, there's still two Bitcoin in the channel, so thirty thousand times two is sixty thousand dollars. That means all the, two Bitcoin on your side of the channel, right? And, in, in that case, there's just not enough more, there's no more Bitcoin in the channel, in the channel Yeah. Exactly right. And so then that's a failure scenario, right? If the price of Bitcoin plummets, then there's just not enough, there's just not enough there to keep any, you know, to keep anybody stable, right? And so there's a few ways to handle that. It's probably not, the price is probably not going to plummet fifty percent, overnight. And so, we can do, we can do some things like we can splice more capacity into the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:43", "start": 1243.01, "text": "channel. Right. As in, it's kind of like you're about to get liquidated and you add more collateral to the loan. Exactly. It's a similar dynamic to that, right? So, the, I guess what you're saying is like you might splice in, let's say if it's rapidly dropping, I might need to talk to you and be like, \"Hey, Tony, I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:02", "start": 1261.9, "text": "You" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "21:02", "start": 1261.98, "text": "can think of it kind of like as a margin call. And another way to handle this is to open, open another channel with a different counterparty. a, another way to handle it is if the price goes down too much and, and you don't like it, then, you know, you can close the channel. You can go, you can go into Tether at that point. You know, there's, there's all sorts of stuff you can do because, again, they're just regular Lightning channels, so, you can do what you want as far as making a product you know," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:33", "start": 1292.56, "text": "that's yet to be determined. Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by CoinKite dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on those, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now, you can use Use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Befiktor Desktop, or Nunchuk as a few examples. Now, you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices, such as passphrases. You can use seed X or, or my favorite is multi-signature. Now, if you're starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer, and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. But I believe these devices Addresses are great at helping secure your coins, especially as you start to migrate up into multi-signature security. But don't be disheartened or don't be, scared away. They are accessible, and I think you actually do learn about Bitcoin in the process. So to get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code livera to get a discount on your cold card. This show also brought to you by mempool dot space, the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer. I use it all the time when I'm checking transaction fees and trying to understand And what is the state of Bitcoin's mempool? You can search transactions, historical as well as unconfirmed ones, and also see a great way to visualize things across the Lightning Network, Liquid, mining, and so much more. Also, for those of you with an enterprise, they offer a mempool dot space enterprise program. So for those of you as part of that enterprise program, you might wanna get increased API limits, and you might wanna have increased access to the team in terms of feature requests. You might want want to have special branding in terms of how your custom instance of mempool dot space looks. So to sign up for that, go to mempool dot space slash enterprise. And now, back to the show. Yeah, I see. And so in terms of people finding each other, I guess, let me put it this way, is there also an element where we have to consider the right user, right? And in general, in life, you gotta choose the right tool for the job. So I think one thing that's becoming clear is not all- Billion people will be able to self custody, right? Like at least with current technology, with current constraints, and that, that basically implies certain trade-offs about who is realistically gonna hold coins on chain and be able to access the chain, right? And people talk about that number, let's say it's somewhere between ten to one hundred million people, and or at least users of the chain. And so does that mean then this kind of product or software, this tool, is ideal? to be used by larger nodes, whether they are lightning banks, let's call them, or whatever, whatever we're calling them, or high net worth individuals, because it's not, it's not basically, it's not for, people who can't afford to hit the chain, basically. That's the short version. That's the constraint, isn't it? That's exactly right. And so," }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "24:51", "start": 1490.9, "text": "insofar as these are regular lightning channels, you have all of the challenges that lightning has today. And so, yet you may be the victim of high fees, you- You need to run some software, like there's some edge cases with lightning. You need to be always online is another challenge specifically with stable channels. And so today, this technology like lightning is most suitable for, Technical node runners for lightning businesses, for wallet developers, folks who are already comfortable running nodes. The hope with lightning and, With stable channels as kind of piggybacking on all of the great progress that we hope Lightning will make, is that, there will be, innovations that make all of that a little bit easier, and so, you know I do think that Lightning has seen quite significant incremental progress in making things, more usable, more robust and reliable. And then looking to the future, perhaps things like channel factories might be a case where you can do bulk opens of channels. And so in the case of, cooperation, things are pretty good and you, and you don't hope-- the idea is that you might not have to go to the chain too often, but- You're right. Today, running Lightning channels for the most part is more suitable for more sophisticated actors." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:27", "start": 1587.17, "text": "Yeah, I see. So, I mean, gaming it out, or as an example, it might be a case where a service provider does this stable channel software to provide that for their end users, right? In the same way that, you know, Blink does this now for their end users, who are You know, to them, they're just custodial users on the app, whatever, but the service provider is able to give them a stable value feature." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "26:56", "start": 1615.57, "text": "Yeah. So, Yeah, I, I think it'd take a few different approaches, you know, ideally, users could have it on their phone, you know, and they could, they could take, take either side of the trade and have like lightning nodes basically running on their phone. I, I think like a mobile first lightning, mobile like a phoenix" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:15", "start": 1635.17, "text": "or a zo- or a Zeus or a mutiny kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "27:19", "start": 1638.87, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I think a mobile first self-custodial lightning experience is something that, we should strive for. And so that's, that's ideal But again, I don't think we're quite there yet. And so in that case, then yeah, it might be, Folks, you know, I'll give you one example where one, some folks are running a, li-lightning channel, a stable channel, and then issuing eCash tokens to users. And so those eCash tokens are like IOUs for the, for the dollar value of the, of the stability side of that stable channel. So that's like a use case, that's the Boardwalk Cash, application that some folks may have seen out there. Yeah. And so that's like an interesting application where, Yeah, some of the complexity is taken away from the user, you know, of course, at the, at the cost of, self custody." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:16", "start": 1695.93, "text": "Yeah, I see. So, yeah, there's a range of different uses there that, We don't really know exactly where it'll, it'll all be used. I know, Kalle was, I think he was tweeting about the sport wallet cash use case, and, you know, there are people doing things on like Nostr and trying to like encrypt eCash to someone's Nostr pub key and things like this. And so maybe this could be some part of that overall, let's say, stack or puzzle that, that, that underlying they are using a stable channel to give them a stable dollar balance, if that's what the users want, obviously. There Of us who just wanna stay Bitcoin denominated all the way, and so be it. but I guess there's also, as you said, there's two sides to the trade here, so there may be, opportunities where the person who's willing to, it's like a maker-taker kind of idea, right? Like if you, if somebody else wants to be the taker and they want stable value, there might be an opportunity for somebody else to be the maker and to maybe they, maybe they make something out of that." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "29:14", "start": 1753.85, "text": "That's, that's right. And so kind Bitcoiners see that stable coins are tremendously popular and want to have some type of like Bitcoin first solution for that. And so some folks kinda like the idea of shouldering the volatility for other users. And, you know, if you're providing stability, then you're going what isn't effect two x leverage long with your Bitcoin. And so, You know, for most people, I would recommend just like stack Sats and put it in cold storage. But for folks who already have a healthy, stack And, you know, maybe they don't want to go to an exchange to purchase more Bitcoin, maybe they want to support the liquidity of the Lightning Network and, you know, maybe they want to get more, Bitcoin exposure in a different way that remains self-custodial versus using a KYC exchange, for example, then, you know, stable channels might be, something they might want to look into, because they can, support the liquidity of the Lightning Network and then they can also- So, of course, shoulder volatility for other users and potentially earn more Bitcoin if the price goes in their favor." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:32", "start": 1832.02, "text": "Yeah, I see. And so- As you said, it's kind of like going two X long, so I guess there is a chance of kind of getting wrecked, but it's kind of like the similar margin call dynamic that if the price were to drop rapidly at that point, you need a way to splice in more Bitcoin. And so is splicing already built into this already, or is that kind of a future feature that you're looking to do?" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "30:55", "start": 1855.47, "text": "Yeah, so the state of, well, it really requires both dual funding and splicing to, make this end-to-end self-custodial Because in our example, when we both put in one Bitcoin, Stefan, like, it'd be great if we could just start that as a dual funded channel and everything's balanced and we're ready to go. yeah, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. And so I have implemented the dual funding with the, core Lightning, but the whole user onboarding flow is, still a little challenging for that. And so dual funding and splicing specifically. I would look at, core, core lightning, what's stable channels run, that's a lightning network implementation, like a codebase. And then the other one is like, i's Eclair and Phoenix, they've done really well in being forward-thinking on dual funding and splicing. but LND, on which most nodes, lightning nodes run today, don't support dual funding and splicing, quite yet. So I still think there's a lot of innovations Coming down the, Lightning, pike. And, yeah, and I'm really looking forward to more wide adop-more wide adoption of dual funding and, and splicing. I know LDK has got that on their roadmap, roadmap, and they want to implement it, quite quickly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:18", "start": 1938.29, "text": "Yeah, so as you're saying, it depends on the implementations at least for today, and so the other question I'd have is How are these stable channel users or, you know, people who want to either the maker side or the taker side, how are they gonna find each other? Like, is there gonna be some kind of public notice board or is it kind of like at a protocol level? Is there, do we need an app for this? Like, how does that work?" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "32:42", "start": 1961.58, "text": "Yeah. right now the technology is, is backend technology, so again, it's more suitable for like, sophisticated actors, but, the vision is to create a marketplace for the folks who want to provide the stability and folks who want to receive the stability. And so, let me throw like, kind of like, an interesting, aside in here. So, normally if you wanna go, like, leverage long Bitcoin, you, You might, say I had my one Bitcoin and I wanted to go two x leverage long, I might deposit that to, an exchange like Finance, and I might do like, derivative product called like a perpetual swap, and basically just like click a two x button, right? And so that means that I get the price exposure as if I had To Bitcoin, even though I only have one Bitcoin. And so in effect, Binance has lent me that one Bitcoin, but I have to pay Binance for that privilege. And that is called, yeah. Yeah, that's called a funding rate. And so in the case of, stable channels, I think there will be a pricing mechanism for folks who want to either pre- receive or provide the stability. So in the case of Bitcoin, most of the time the funding rate is positive. That means that the longs pay the shorts, like over seventy percent of the time, and normally that's like ten to twenty percent interest. So that might kind of like, sweeten the deal a little bit for folks who might want to engage in, in, you know, keeping this-- Because Stefan, if you're keeping your sixty thousand dollars stable, yeah, you might earn something like, yeah, if you wanna keep the stability, you- You, I would pay you because I'm getting the leverage long, right? And so, and so the plan is that-- I see, yeah. The plan is to add in those, the-- that interest rate, right? And so back to your question about how folks might, find each other, I mean, I think there's like two basic ways. One is centralized service, like, you know, a website or app, and the other is using some of these decentralized services. of course I'll point the noster as one, but I'll also point to the lightning network itself, and the lightning network itself already has concept of like liquidity adds, and there's already messages that go back, you know, a lot of gossip messages go back and forth on the lightning network that users might not be, aware of quite yet. But, yeah. Implementing a marketplace so that folks can find each other and then implementing rates, interest rates, to, modulate the demand for, receiving stability or providing stability are two, really important developments that, I hope to get to." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:31", "start": 2131.47, "text": "Yeah, interesting. And so yeah, as you said, it's kind of like flipping the dynamic in terms of funding rate, because normally, as you said, you would normally-- if you were, you know, a trading guy yourself or you're interested in this, you or you might take some of your coins to finance, Bifinance or whoever, and pay a funding rate, and in this case, you are, it's kind of like you're going the other way, and now the other, the person who wants stability is actually the one paying you, so in, in that example, let me," }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "36:02", "start": 2162.25, "text": "let" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:02", "start": 2162.39, "text": "me" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "36:03", "start": 2163.19, "text": "rephrase that. So normally it, it would be, I don't know which way the payments are gonna go, first of all, because, because it's, it's gonna be market driven, right? And so- you know, on the one hand, say I got my one Bitcoin, right? I can go to Binance, and but I want more Bitcoin exposure, right? And so then, I'm going two x leverage long Bitcoin. I have to pay Binance for that, extra Bitcoin exposure. That's like one use case. Another use case is that you want the, the dollar, the stable dollar exposure. And with the stable dollar exposure, like, you already have, you already have Bitcoin. Stefan, in your example, and like, and that, that Bitcoin looks juicy, and I want more of that Bitcoin, right? On me, me, right, the, the leverage long side. So we might be able to come into like a mutual agreement where, I take your Bitcoin upside and downside, right? I'm providing you the stability, and yet I'm also getting, two x-- You, you essentially are like the Binance in this case, right? You're providing me your Bitcoin exposure. And so for that, for that honor, I may say, \"Alright, well, you know, we settle this stable channel every one minute. I'm going to add in, a ten percent interest rate on that payment and pay you every minute, right? Because you're giving me-- \" \"Right. \" \"You see what I'm saying? So that's how the mechanics may work. Now, the, the market isn't always long, the funding rates aren't always positive. In some cases, when the, when the price is going down a lot, it's actually the case that the payments go the" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "37:46", "start": 2266.02, "text": "Bitcoin, the price is dropping. And so in that case, then for the honor of the stability, you may have to pay me. But I hope that's not all too confusing for your listeners." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:55", "start": 2275.15, "text": "Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so what we would- Hypothesize, let's say, is that in most cases, you, the maker, are actually gonna be paying the stability receiver, but in certain times, it's gonna be the other way around, and your buyer would be paying you in, in this example. Yeah, interesting. So there's a lot to think about, but, fascinating. And so then, so I guess, I mean, obvious questions people will have are kind of like, \"Oh, is this the next Terra Luna?\" Right? Like they're gonna think Is there gonna be some, you know, but I guess we, we could also, you could counter it and say, \"Look, actually, this isn't like one big overall stability pool. Actually, it's more like all these channels to each other. And so if-- okay, certainly if some of those channels get wrecked because, you know, the big price moves, so be it. I mean, that's what you opted into. but it's not like one big pool. And obviously, with Dogecoin and all the, the, the fraud and stuff, that's another whole Mind, weren't they? They'll think, \"Oh, is this-- you're trying to do this algorithmic stablecoin thing? Hasn't that already been tried and failed before?\" Yeah, I--" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "39:08", "start": 2348.46, "text": "it's, it's a great point. And so I, I don't think of this as a stable coin. There's no issued token on the back of it. It's just people doing freedom stuff with freedom money, Bitcoin, and it remains, self-custodial at all times, right? And so that's another key difference between, yeah, all the other, Centralized stable coins, at least. And so, I'll just point out that it's, it's also part of the beauty of Bitcoin's design, from a technology standpoint, is that there's not really like a centralized, like with these Ethereum contracts, for example, like, you know, there's like these ERC twenty contracts, and all of the data is in there, and like if there's a bug, you know, then, then they get wiped out, or not even just a bug, but like an operational error or, you know, an incident My job kind of thing. Got it. But with, with Bitcoin, these channels, they all have their self-contained state. They all have their little UTXO on the, on the blockchain, and they, are independent of each other. And so that's a-- as you mentioned, that's a really nice, characteristic of lightning channels, because it's a truly radically decentralized, network versus these other kind of stability pools or more centralizing forces. which, yeah, again, can have some like operational, errors that, make things don't go as well as we, as we please. So I'm hoping that, when we, when Bitcoiners think about building, Bitcoin stability tools or Bitcoin backed, dollars, we think about trying to keep things self-custodial and, think about the really, Remarkable characteristics of Lightning that make it more robust for like planning out a longer term solution that can be robust against, you know, be it, regulatory burdens, be it, inside jobs, be it, operational errors and whatnot, but, it's another reason that I'm really bullish on, on Lightning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:13", "start": 2473.19, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. The lead sponsor of this show is Swan dot com, and Swan has a mission to onboard millions of people into Bitcoin. I also work at Swan. Helping on some educational content for the team. Now, the team have also put out a new version of the Swan Bitcoin application, which is available on your smartphone, whether it's Apple or Android. Now, this app has a really fast onboarding experience. It's now just a few minutes to go from zero to Bitcoin. So if you are standing there with your family or friends and you might have been having trouble trying to get them onboarded, well, try this now. Recommend Swan Bitcoin, and you can do this while you're standing next to them, they can click through. And most of them will be able to set up and do this in just a few minutes. Also, the team at Swan have rolled out a new promotion, there are zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys. So this is a great way to go from zero to Bitcoin and in a guided and managed way. So reminder, go to your app store or Play Store and search Swan Bitcoin to get onboarded with Bitcoin today. And now back to the show. Yeah, so I guess it's just offering another- possibility of how to do this kind of stable value, fiat value, let's say, tokens, because, yeah, as, as we've spoken about, there are different-- there's a ho-- there's a whole spectrum of different approaches, right? You've got this kind of tether and circle style using, you know, shit chains like Ethereum and Tron, but having kind of, they could still be shut down by the state, right? Like the state can just, you know, say, \"Hey, we don't want...\" Yeah, because ultimately, they-- the state On these shit chains, just like stop, you know, the whoever's holding the go-- the US government bonds which are underlying that. and then I guess when you're thinking about, let's say, stable sat, that's ultimately, you know, Blink and them who are doing that relationship with, let's say, an exchange, And then when you think about DLCs, it's kind of more about the oracle and, you know, that other component to it. And then so when it comes to stable channels, I guess it's more just like I guess I'm, I'm thinking, I'm trying to think about what, who's, who, where's the main kind of point of failure here? Like, is it just that you, I guess it's maybe there's more technicality involved to it that you have to be able to hit the chain here periodically, so you need to be rich enough to afford that, like it's not necessarily for the small value users, I would say that's probably one of the, let's say the, the, the caveats here. and you need to be online, you need to be kind" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:54", "start": 2633.94, "text": "Price of Bitcoin and making sure that you're still, you know, updating the state of your channel. Right." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "43:59", "start": 2639.24, "text": "Well, yeah, and like, and it also has a lot of the challenges of, of Lightning. one, one area of Lightning development that I'd like to see more, Work on is, key, key management. And so with Lightning, you know, you have your keys online and, I don't think we've quite figured out how to, secure those keys in a way that, at least, that I'm satisfied with. And there are some developments in that, in that space, but if we're talking about putting like- You know, I don't know what the capacity of Lightning Network is today, but it's three hundred, four hundred million versus these, you know, stable coins which are one hundred and fifty billion dollars plus. So if we're talking about putting like a lot more money on Lightning, you know, I think it's a matter of better key management. I think it's a matter of just ironing out all of the, different edge cases that there are, which the Lightning developers are, are working on. and You know, Lightning's pretty complicated software. There's just a big foot-- when you run it, there's just a big footprint and a lot of messages getting passed back and forth. So those operational risks are all something, to consider. but, conceptually, my hope, and I think the hope of the Lightning developers, is that these are pretty well-known problems insofar as there's nothing that's gonna- Come out of the blue and totally surprise us with vanilla lightning channels. And so it's a matter of, kind of just heads-down engineering to continue to, Work through these chal- work through these challenges and, also to, you know, of course, iron out some of the UI, UX, problems so that, so as we can, so we can make, self-pedestrial lightning more attractive to folks. And one other, kind of like risk of stable channels is of course that your channel partner just, misbehaves and leaves. But, you know, as you mentioned, yeah, the, the runner of the stable channel needs- To be technologically competent enough, or the software needs to be good enough to be able to, handle a, a either mutual close or a forced closure in the event that your, channel partner isn't doing what they say they want, they were going to do." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:29", "start": 2789.03, "text": "Right. And as you said, there's gonna be some reputation involved in it as well that you weren't, maybe it's not just like total randos, it's more like known entities or people with a reputation. Exactly. one other question and aspect to dig into is while this stable channel- Channel is open and operating, can we still make payments in and out of it or is it more like, no, it's only for the stable value and nothing else? Yeah, so this" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "46:54", "start": 2814.03, "text": "brings up a really, Interesting line of thought. conceptually, yes, you can make payments out of it. That's something that I'm working on. And so it's just really a matter of, Like if you had your sixty thousand dollar stable channel, Stefan, and you wanted to make a one thousand dollar payment out, it's just a matter of us saying, \"Alright, well, I'm gonna drop you down to fifty nine thousand, right?\" You know? But then it also kind of like, affects on the other side how much like collateral I have, right? Because now I have, sixty-one thousand, right? So there's some matters to think about there. But conceptually, it should be no problem, I mean, no problem. It should be, feasible to be able to do payments from like a phone, you know, and have your dollars on your phone and send payments out and like readjust the stable channel. Okay. It brings up something else interesting, which is that, in the case that I gave to you, Stefan, you had sixty thousand dollars of Bitcoin, right? And we're, and we're keeping you stable at sixty thousand dollars. Another way to think of that is that I was keeping you stable at sixty thousand dollars and zero Bitcoin, okay? So, so I'm just gonna say the punchline now. The, the, the punchline is that we can add, trading to these channels. And so now instead of being kept stable at sixty thousand dollars and zero Bitcoin, you can send a message to me and say, \"Hey, Tony, keep me stable at thirty thousand dollars and, point five Bitcoin, one half of one Bitcoin, right? And so, in, in essence there, and that still adds up to one Bitcoin, so on my side, I'm, I, I might say, fine, I might say, alright, fine, but I'm going to charge you, you know, point one percent process, trade processing fee or something like that. But you see what happened? You went from sixty thousand dollars exposure to now thirty thousand dollars exposure in, half of one Bitcoin. And so it's a way to- You know, it's a way to do like in-channel trading or maybe you wanna be stable on a different type of asset like the S&P 500. And maybe as my, as the provider of that service, I'm okay to do that. So it's all sorts of interesting things that we can do inside of these stable channels." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:14", "start": 2953.66, "text": "That's amazing. And so, but then in that example, you are no longer two x long, right? I'm no longer two x long. So I guess, right? So now you're kind of also sharing some of the Bitcoin risk where previously- yeah, I'm getting confused, but basically, you were initially two x long in the example, right? And then now that we've cut it down, are you- Yeah, the leverage" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "49:38", "start": 2977.87, "text": "ratio would definitely change. the leverage ratio would definitely change, but the leverage ratio would change even in the base case, because, like, let's say the price of Bitcoin is, is dropping, let's just take the nor-the normal example with no confusion in there. So in the normal case, when you're stable at sixty thousand- thousand dollars, and the price is going down and down and down, my leverage ratio is going up and up and up because actually, you know, I have less Bitcoin, right? And so, so that's, so that's just another aspect of the technological design that people are going to have to, Have to, have to sort out." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:20", "start": 3019.82, "text": "Yeah, so maybe they'd have to like set their parameters of like what are they comfortable with in terms of in-channel trades or this kind of, how much leverage ratio am I okay with, like within these bands, and if it goes outside of these bands, okay, we're gonna shut the channel down or we're gonna send a message and say, \"Hey, I wanna stop it now,\" that kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "50:39", "start": 3038.72, "text": "Well, I think the big" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:40", "start": 3039.64, "text": "picture," }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "50:40", "start": 3039.98, "text": "Stefan, is that like- For most folks, for a lot of folks, people are, are turned off by Bitcoin 'cause it's too volatile. It's just too volatile for them, and I understand that, because you have to pay your bills next month or you have, That, the US dollar denominated debts that you have to pay, and you just can't tolerate, you know, the price going up and down twenty percent, et cetera, et cetera. So, I think it would behoove the Bitcoin ecosystem if we can develop better tools for users to get stability. And, it doesn't even necessarily have to be all dollar stability or all Bitcoin, right? The idea is that we can let users kind of customize their, their volatility preferences by using Bitcoin. And the tools to do that on Bitcoin I think are there. We, we have created the best payment network ever existed and the best money ever existed. And so we can kind of like, we can eat up fiat inside of Bitcoin. We can, we can, we can bring that, we can bring the stablecoin liquidity into the lightning network and into Bitcoin. And, it's gonna take some engineering work, but ultimately, I think that we'll be able to give users more functionality, more usability. ability by using the Bitcoin tools that we already" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:07", "start": 3127.04, "text": "have today. Interesting. And so would you also view it as a quasi-decentralizing exchange? In that sense." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "52:16", "start": 3135.77, "text": "I think so, I think so, because there will be some aspect of, price involved, and, that's the price of either providing or receiving this, stability. And, and/or alternative, you know? Providing the stability, another alternate, another way to think about that is going leverage long Bitcoin, and that's already priced. Like the, the Bitcoin derivatives market is a lot bigger than the Bitcoin spot market already today, and so, most of that, use is captured by centralized exchanges. Some of it's on decentralized exchanges, and those decentralized exchanges are on, yeah, mostly Ethereum based, rails. But, yeah, I think that Bitcoin is really great collateral for derivatives positions, and with Lightning, we can settle it like, like that quick. And this is, you know, I mentioned at the start of the episode. I worked at JP Morgan Chase, and you just don't have those capabilities in traditional finance to do such frequent settlement and to have such a, a reliable, collateral asset as Bitcoin. So I think that, doing a more," }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "53:39", "start": 3218.94, "text": "derivatives trading and again, I'm focused on the US dollar experience specifically, but I think that's all quite feasible with what we've built out with Lightning so far" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:51", "start": 3230.62, "text": "Interesting. And so would you say, I guess maybe we're getting more to a broader conversation about Lightning Network, do you believe it is actually cheaper to use the Lightning Network than to use legacy fiat banking rails, or is it actually gonna be that it might be more expensive because you're paying for some, some level of censorship resistance and like, you, there's that risk that you may need to hit the chain, these kinds of things?" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "54:18", "start": 3258.04, "text": "Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's a good question. And so, let's take the example like if, if we wanted to launch like a centralized stablecoin, well, you would need to have those banking relationships and you would need to have, and you would need to have a bank charter. And, you know, these are all like- These are all rules that keep out new entrants and new competition from the banking system or from, like, the legacy system, writ large. And with stable channels, anybody who runs a, who can run a lightning node can provide or receive, stability as a service. And so in that respect, lightning and Bitcoin are just, orders of magnitude cheaper than, getting started, with, you know, some type of centralized stablecoin offering from a user perspective." }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "55:15", "start": 3315.46, "text": "I am not sure that Bitcoin will be able to be simpler or cheaper than centralized options, and that's just for Technological reasons that are well documented in the Bitcoin community and that we've already talked about, like you need to pay on-chain fees, right? And you need to run software, and, you know, all of that stuff is kind of challenging. So from an individual user perspective, to use Bitcoin, is probably going to be more expensive than starting an account at, a bank. or just receiving, services from, you know, from a centralized stablecoin, provider. but from like an opera-operational business perspective, I'll say, I think it'd be a lot cheaper to use Bitcoin and Lightning, tools. so I think that's kind of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:13", "start": 3372.72, "text": "how I, my response to that. Yeah. And then it would also might, we might start to see, and I'm sure you're seeing some of this as well, this kind of- Jurisdictional arbitrage game aspect, right? So as an example, I saw even just today, Kilian from BOLTs dot exchange did a thread kind of talking about how he set up in El Salvador, and he was comparing it back to Germany and looking at, okay, look, they got this MiCA regulation, and, you know, they-- now, h-h- their approach is obviously they're using like liquid swapping in and out and lightning and, you know, this kind of thing, but set up in El Salvador, that might be an interesting model that if- Some of these approaches, like stable channels and, so on, can be set up in jurisdictions where maybe you just don't have to touch a fiat legacy bank and you're just doing it online. And so maybe there's like a, like you're saying, like a business operation way that it can be cheaper because of the jurisdictional setup. yeah, I think" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "57:12", "start": 3431.99, "text": "so, and I'm really looking forward to some of the jurisdictional, competition, in the coming years as Bitcoin becomes Is, more expensive. yeah, the nice thing about stable channels is that it's, it's all Bitcoin under the hood and it's all self-custodial. And so they say that, possession is nine-tenths of the law, and you have possession of, of your Bitcoin. If you're trying to offer a service where you're giving stability to, Other folks and issuing some type of token on the P2P cash token on top of it or something like that, then that gets a lot, a lot more challenging, of course, from a, from a regulatory standpoint, and frankly as it should, because you're, you're custing other people's assets, and so you should take steps to," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:57", "start": 3477.17, "text": "to safeguard that. Yeah, so I guess then, I guess the main challenge at this stage is more like usability, right? Because there will be a lot of-- there'll be only certain-- there's only, as you said, you need to be technologically sophisticated, you might need to have a minimum level of capital for this to make sense, right? Like if you've, if you've only got five hundred dollars in Bitcoin, it's not really, you know, it's not really gonna cut the, you know, it's not really gonna cut the mustard here. So you kind of, the-- once you cut person can realistically use this, tech savvy, has enough capital, wants Bitcoin exposure or wants to, you know, it's, it's a small number of people or businesses who would realistically use this. Now that said, it could be that, you know, those ten million lightning banks and those lightning banks want some kind of stable channel feature and they wanna offer that to their end user customers. So maybe that's kind of one of the ways it goes. But I guess for now, the usability is maybe a bit more challenging, right?" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "58:59", "start": 3538.69, "text": "Yeah, I think that's kind of like messaging that I might apply to the whole, the, the broader Bitcoin, ecosystem is to be self-sovereign and it's-- there's still usability challenges. And, you know- As a Bitcoiner, I think what makes a Bitcoiner is someone who thinks that like ninety-nine percent of the benefits to humanity are in the future. You know, we, we, we've only just cracked one percent of the benefits, one percent of the usability, one percent of the products that will be built on top of it. So with something like Lightning and, with something like stable channels, we need to, you know, take stock of where we are now from a usability point of view perspective, but also have a vision to the future and be optimistic about that future and build, build towards it. So I take your point that, right now, we're working through all of the usability challenges and there's a sliver of the population that wants to use stable channels or lightning or, or Bitcoin for that matter, but, the future is, is bright and orange." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:05", "start": 3605.33, "text": "Fantastic. Well, I think that's a great spot to finish up. Tony, before we let you go, where can people find you online? you can find me on" }, { "speaker": "or_some_kind_of_stable_value_feature_tony_klausing", "time": "01:00:11", "start": 3611.82, "text": "Twitter. And, you can also, find more links and resources about stable channels at stablechannels dot com. There's a form at the top you can get in touch with me. I'll also be at the, Bitcoin, Nashville conference in a couple weeks, if anybody wants to connect, just" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:29", "start": 3629.0, "text": "send me a message. Fantastic. Well, Tony, thanks for joining me today. Thank you, Stefan. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, make sure to give it a thumbs up and share it out there with your family and friends. Check out my website at stephanolivera.com, and I will see you in the citadels." } ] }