{ "episodeId": "SLP617", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "joe_quirk": { "name": "Joe Quirk", "role": "guest", "tag": "JOE" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:11", "start": 11.19, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Bold, the best place to buy, sell and store your Bitcoin over at getbold.io, that's for the American listeners. Now, joining me today is Joe Quirk. He is known as the president of the Seasteading Institute, he is a seasteading evangelist and author. And documentary maker. So first of all, Joe, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "00:34", "start": 33.84, "text": "It's an honor to be here, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:35", "start": 35.44, "text": "So Joe, I saw your talks, now I saw your talk at Liberty in Our Lifetime in '22, and also the recent one, you know, this year earlier, just, in Prague. Now, I think it's an interesting idea. Maybe some of my listeners might have heard of the idea, but I think there's a lot of people who don't really know much about it, probably have a lot of misconceptions about the idea" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00", "start": 60.1, "text": "Idea, like why, you know, it sounds like such a crazy idea. How did you get into it?" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "01:05", "start": 65.11, "text": "Yeah, I-- when I realized that, seasteading isn't crazy, politics is crazy. and I, I wanna enlighten the world. I, I, I realize this is the answer to, to go, to go-- the governance monopoly problem. Why does governance suck everywhere? It's, it's naturally a military monopoly over land And it gives rise to certain incentives that bring out some things in human nature. so I've written a lot of books, and I wrote a book about evolution I came to understand that, the secret recipe for progress is variation and selection. It's why the technology we're using right now works so well. It's not because someone designed it from the top down, but because there's decentralized experimentation Variation of forms competing for our choices, and only the best ones survive, and over time, it's like a global brain controlled by a price system eventually puts all this stuff together into this marvelous technology we're using. I understood that governance doesn't make progress, so because in order to vary, a government, you need a war or revolution, in order to select, you need to win And by the way, elections aren't really selecting any kind of government. so, and that's based on the, the, the static nature of land. so then one day I was on a cruise ship. I stepped onto a cruise ship to Alaska, and it was the immediately the highest standard of living I ever had. Ice sculptures, fabulous free food Personal butlers from all over the world racing around picking up my towel. every time I made a move, they were helping me with things, and they-- I remember I had like a personal Butler basically from Thailand, as a matter of fact, and he seemed to share the sense of adventure. I was living like a fabulously wealthy person in the West, and he was living like a middle class Waiter in the West. And, I noticed everyone working there was working very hard, and they seemed to share the, the same sense that I had, that this is kind of exciting. And I'm like, what is it about this place? Why is this place cheaper than the Costa Hotel I stayed in the night before? I stepped from land onto this thing, and I, instead of enjoying myself on this Alaskan cruise, I was walking around doing back of the napkin calculations, I'm saying, \"So this thing must cost a half billion dollars. How many tickets are there? How much does that marble cost?\" How do they make a profit? I don't get it. And I was literally, you know, alone by myself, I was walking around on the deck when there was high waves and marveling that I don't get seasick, it's totally stable, and I noticed it had a Panama flag And I'm like, I guess it's some kind of tax play? I don't get it. I got off, did a little research, I'll try not to make my story too long, 'cause then, then I was a burning man. And that, you know, I, I, I'll tell it real quick. I, I, I was, I was at Burning Man, and I was, I was at my tenth Burning Man. And anyone that attends Burning Man," }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "04:23", "start": 263.23, "text": "Notices that it, it seems to just solve pro-social problems over time. It's a flat, featureless desert. There's nothing there. It's a blank slate, and you start this new society. And every year, there's a crisis. It's gonna be the end of Burning Man. One year it was poor depots. People are throwing things in the porta potties, and if we can't have toilets, we can't have Burning Man. How do we stop everybody from throwing things in the porta potties? How are we ever gonna solve that problem? The city takes itself apart, puts itself back together the next year How, how do they solve the problem? I don't know. The problem gets solved. The next year it's dust. Cars are driving too fast. We have to do-- we have to have a five mile an hour Speed limit? How, how you gonna enforce that? There's thousands of cars out there. I guess you're gonna need a government to come in with guns and force everyone to do it. I guess we have to argue about it. I don't wanna argue about it. City takes itself apart. I remember one of the most intractable problems ever was The, the, the state requires that you clean up all the trash, and they come in some amount of time later, do a big inspection, prepare to fine you, and they have to show that, that there's no sign. Leave no trace is one of the things about Burning Man. And one of the problems was they're gonna shut us down 'cause people are bringing feather boas as part of their costume. The wind blows, a piece of boa gets, and it blows across the playa and ends up like stuck in the bushes. Miles away, you're, you're destroying Burning Man. Okay, we're gonna cancel Burning Man. all of a sudden there, there, there, there's a huge like, how are you gonna solve that problem? Microscopic little pieces of feathers. All of a sudden there's a huge Fence going all around Burning Man designed to catch these little things that blow off. They also pass a rule no more bowers, for whatever reason everyone obeys So I don't know how social problems get solved at Burning Man. All I know is it keeps getting bigger and the problems keep getting solved. And I know cruise ships are floating self-governing societies that are anarcho-capitalist private governance. And patriotic people step from their land, and choose to vacation on this cruise ship. and they don't change their ideologies, they just choose something they like, and it's so good they vacation on it. There's so much variety, you can send your children to go stay on this cruise ship, Disney Cruises. by the way, in, in the US California controls Disneyland, not Disney Cruises. The-- when you saw my talk, those cruise ships leaving, they're leaving Florida. F-F-Disney World got in a conflict with the Florida government. Not all those Disney Cruises. They're all-- they drop off, they stop at Florida, they leave, they have complete freedom to innovate in governance all they want. A captain is a dictator at sea, and yet people trust the captain of Disney Cruises with their children. And I have a great photo of like a waterslide going out over the water and coming back. It looks very unsafe. Well, what about safety regulations? What government is in control of that? I can go into great detail about the decentralized safety regulations and how they get enforced in a market on the sea. So I'm telling you, free capitalist societies already exist on the ocean. It already works. For, for liberty in our lifetime has already happened." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "08:05", "start": 485.47, "text": "I was at Burning Man and I was sort of speaking aloud, saying You know, wouldn't it be interesting if there were more Burning Man's?" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "08:15", "start": 495.48, "text": "everything about it defies what I think. Here's something that might challenge what we think. It's a-- it started as a trade economy. And it evolved into a gift economy. Of course, such a thing isn't possible. It's with, with sixty thousand people. other people, you know, you'd have too many parasites. People would show up and take advantage. It's basically, it creates a culture of, you come to my campsite, I give you free stuff. I go to your campsite, I give you free stuff. If you forget your water, it doesn't matter, someone will give you free stuff. So then the question becomes, what if the Burning Man was three hundred and sixty-five days a year? Could you maintain this hippie culture? I, I didn't think communes or whatever we wanna call this could exist with more than a hundred and fifty people say, but no, they exist with sixty thousand people. And here's what's really exciting. Name me an ideological position, they all use Burning Man as an example of why their beliefs work. Libertarians claim Burning Man, progressives claim Burning Man, conservatives claim Burning Man. every weird belief system. New age people are like, \"This proves all my spiritual beliefs are true. This proves human nature is good.\" So this is what we want. We want a market of governance, that recreates itself, that moves around and innovates. And then I have no idea how social problems are solved. I'm sitting on the cruise ship, a dictator can do whatever he wants to me. If I start a fight, he can lock me in the brig, he could drop me off at an obscure island. This happens every day on cruise ships. By the way, a population bigger than Texas boards cruise ships every year. Everything that happens, fights, violence, heart attacks, old people ride cruise ships, they have evolved the means to do it. Well, how is it gonna work? I don't know. I don't have to argue about it. It just sort of works. All I need is choice, and I don't even know who my dictator is. All I know, he's competing for me to choose him, and my personal servant, Pro Witt, who I'll remember for the rest of my life. He, you know, there's no angels involved here. People would be happy to exploit him, but he can choose another cruise line. He develops skills on this floating society. He can go online and complain, \"I was working there, and they-- my room was too small, and they didn't pay me enough.\" So- People are competing for his labor, they're competing for my choices, the governance works. It works better than any American city, and it's completely safe. And people act like hu-human nature is the same there as it is on land. I was talking aloud about this at Burning Man, and somebody said, \"Sounds like you need to learn about seasteading.\" And I had the same reaction as everyone else, which is seascaping. My, my wife is an esthetician, and I'm like, \"Was that some kind of Brazilian? Do you like shave the ass? What?\" And I, you know. And so I was, I was introduced to seasteading." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "11:28", "start": 687.89, "text": "and I, because I'd been on a cruise ship, I could see, like, yeah, I can imagine humanity would move to the seas. It's doable, you just make smaller cruise ships. I just don't understand why someone would found a nonprofit to make it happen earlier than otherwise. Sometime after, Burning Man, I, I noticed the logo of the Seasteading Institute is based on the Burning Man logo. It's the same logo. except it has a, a, a cruise ship held up with its ar- with its arms to the sky and it's standing on water. And I said, \"What, why would a city in the desert?\" inspires floating societies on the ocean. I don't get it. I started searching on the web, and when I realized, If society floated, and you had a floating Venice, where you could move your city blocks around, and you could move from your Venice to another Venice, you would have variation by governance providers Selection by citizen consumers, they wouldn't even technically be citizens, they'd just be customers. You would have, in principle, variation and selection In governance, which is the secret recipe for progress, I don't need to know anything else. seasteads are a technology to unleash The universal acid, the, the relentless solution, problem-solving mechanism that is evolution in governance itself. And look, I, I'm in Silicon Valley, I'm no nerd. I, I don't understand the fundamentals of many interesting ideas. I can't start from the first principles like I can with evolution and work my way up to AI or Mars or any of these ideas that seem wacky to me. I understand cruise ships, I understand barges I understand spars, which I have renamed sea pillars to make it understandable. I understand floatels, I understand floating, I understand biorock This is gonna work. Th-this is gonna work, and if you scale up quickly on the ocean, I don't think any government will care until you get to a hundred thousand. You'll-- they're not interested. If, if they're not threatened by cruise ships, they won't be th-threatened by Eurocentric seastead. Vitalia can m-move their, their business out there. That's gonna work better than doing it on land if we can make it safe. We have to scale up to a level where it's safe so we've managed through relentless messaging and inspiring and storytelling. I've talked to you about the theory of it, but talking about, you know, you were at probably the thing where I talked about Venice and the history of how governance evolves. It has nothing to do with voting and elections, really. It, it has to do with choice, it has to do with islands, it has to do with pirate ships. and you can watch my talks, the Liberty in Our Lifetime conference, to understand this. This is how governance evolves, the ocean And it's already evolved on the sea. So if we can move out there permanently, make them small. So we have maybe a dozen companies Featured on our website. Some have really worked hard on various i-innovations. There's already, competition with materials science going on among these companies. Will it be geopolymer? Will it be birock? Will it be a really expensive material that doesn't corrode in seawater? All those are being tried by different companies. They're already disagreeing with each other. The first step to the seas has been achieved by Ocean Builders, who took the sea pillar They're, it's, it's very interesting. They're doing this right. They've taken steps to the seas. They've started close to land in shallow waters. They made another one little further out, designed for wind. Then they made a circular one. Maybe I don't know how many miles, a couple miles out, in waves with deep ballast holding it stable just like a sea pillar. and it works. the, the people at Ocean Builders are living on both of them. There's an underwater room. so far the, calcium carbonate is attracted to it. We'll see if the steel doesn't corrode. It looks beautiful. I showed videos of it. and this is, this, this is the moon landing to me. There it is in waves, it works. T-there's the helicopter landing on it I, I, I asked for the-- I keep issuing challenges. You, you can't call it a seasteading. Civil society requires me not to be seasick. You can't call it a seasteading unless you pass the wine test. So you pour a glass of wine, you put it on the table, show me waves out the window, then show me the wine with no ripples. To my astonishment, the first prototype off the coast of Thailand" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "16:45", "start": 1004.74, "text": "they did it. They waited until there was a storm, and they literally passed the, the wine test on that rinky-dink thing. The, the video is featured in my, in my documentary. My mind was blown. now, then I said, \"Well, Grandma!\" So I was traumatized my mother-in-law. I, I did a National Geographic cruise ship, and it was designed for athletic people, and you had to get from the boat onto the, the dinghy, and it was in waves, and you had to catch your grandma, it was very unstable. I'm like, \"This is insane.\" this is very unsafe, so I told them, \"You have to pass the grandma test. She has to step, she has to get off the boat or whatever it is, submarine, and step onto the seastead.\" with her packages, and it's completely safe. This is what we need for civil society. I need grandma. So they didn't do that. They passed the grandpa test. They took a helicopter, they landed it on top of this thing. It's safe enough to do that, and a, and an old man hobbles off, and it's captured on video, and I'm like, holy crap! They're, they're doing it. so now that this thing is safe and working in waves, the sky is the limit, because if one sea pillar is stable You can do four, you can do a table. Now that they've-- they're, they're working out the kinks, they're working out all the things, self-funded because they're inspired And there, they can make it bigger, they can move it further out to sea. All they need is customers. Now, here's where the Seasteading Institute comes in. There is a bureaucratic wall Starting twelve miles out." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "18:23", "start": 1102.98, "text": "now here's where you need to really think in a different way. Stop if you want freedom Stop negotiating with the state. Start negotiating with flagging registries. So governments franchise out their sovereignty granting privileges to private businesses Some of whom have already reached out to us, eager to make money off future seasteads, which their, the head of business development in the Bahamas assumed is the future of the industry. And I have to keep explaining to him like, \"Well, we just don't have the budget yet because the, the, the libertarians still don't understand this. We don't have enough people who are committed to making this happening.\" So on behalf of the twelve seasteading companies that are moving forward, I haven't even spoken about ArcPad yet, which is on the other side of the planet in Indonesia Which has released a floating four spar structure, which they've tested in waves, which is a little closer to land, which is much cheaper But their vision is, is seasteading, and they're, so they're like one step behind ocean builders going out into deeper waves. The on-- the only challenge to seasteading is waves and people not understanding that governance is different at sea. It's a, it's an anarcho-capitalist society. So when I talk to the flagging registry CEOs Of Liberia, there in New York. When I talk to the guy from the Bahamas, he's in New York. When I talk to the guy from Palau, he's, he's in Greece. These are, these are businessmen. So there's a process to make your seastead safe, and the cowboys have, have done a lot of unsafe things, and the Seasteading Institute wants to put a stop to that So basically, you start, so say you wanna build a ship in Singapore, there are regulations and there are about fifty Ship certification societies that compete to be the one that stamp their imprimatur on your ship. This is safe, this is certified as safe. And then the, those shipbuilding companies, they choose the certifier they want, and they're all competing to be the one, so they're trying to drive down prices. But then if you choose, say, the American Bureau of Shipping or Whatever it is, DNV, there's all these acronyms of these different things, Lloyd's. You know, you have to pay to set up a booth in your boatyard and have a guy sitting there going through there Just like a state regulator, but he's in a marketplace competing with others, saying, \"Well, that has to be this size, and I'm testing this, and I have to certify that.\" And he, through the whole process of building, he's saying, \"It's safe, it's safe, it's safe, it's safe.\" Some of them are very lax and sketchy, some of them are very rigorous and expensive. So if you want a cruise ship, you want the very best if you want grandma to live on it, you want the very best. It's gonna cost you, so you gotta build your structure, no matter what it is, if it's a barge, whatever, according to the certifier. Once the certifier says, \"We're staking our reputation on this is safe,\" now you gotta marine insurer A marine insurer has to come in and says, \"Yes, this floating structure is safe.\" Then a flagging registry competes to say, \"We're willing to put our flag on it, and then you gotta pay us a yearly fee.\" Libi- this is one of the main means of revenue for Liberia, which was recently a failed state and is recovering now. One of the best things that ever happened to them is their flag- their flagging registry and farming that out to be run by businessmen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:18", "start": 1337.53, "text": "That's interesting. It kind of reminds me of how, you know, there's citizenship by investment. It's kind of, it's a thing that they're selling out, and I guess, you know, it's an opportunity then in that way for the seasteaders, to, yeah, to, use this as their mechanism to move further out. so let's just talk a little bit about, I guess, the common questions most people will have, like You know, you know, I guess the, the initial reaction people might have is like, \"Oh, are you guys trying to like recreate Waterworld?\" Or \"You guys trying to, you know, what, what, what would it mean to actually live out in the water and not just, you know, not like a temporary cruise ship, you know, and come back, but to actually live out there?\" And I guess the idea is that you sort of start with very basic ideas close to the shoreline and then you sort of- Move further out and eventually you're into international waters, right? And that's where this conversation comes in around, the certifying, the flagging, the insurance, components of it." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "23:17", "start": 1397.46, "text": "So, so right now, there's a whole secret society of people living on catamarans permanently. Homeschooling their kids, going all over the sea. Catamaran people say, \"This is already happening, we're doing it. Why do you guys even exist?\" They're generally not even armed. it's, it-- you know, it's, it's easier to defend your catamaran and your family than it is your home in Oakland, where I live, Oakland, California. You're safer at sea. So the cameras like to point at the scary spots, like in between Yemen and Somalia, where there's piracy off the coast of failed states. I calculated that all piracy waters are less than two percent of the oceans. all the-- and the oceans are, are more than twice the size of all land. And a way to put this in perspective is Western Europe, it's big, you have criminals. How many criminals are in Western Europe? I really don't know. French Polynesia controls an area of ocean the size of Western Europe. No piracy attempt has ever been recorded in its history. One was recorded before French Polynesia was founded. it's really hard to be a pirate. I'm, I made a satirical video where we took a dinghy up to a cruise ship And I called up to the passengers, \"Hey, we're pirates, w-where do we start? Can you throw down your jewelry, please?\" And it's a little kind of comedic thing that got passed around. Yeah. Marine, security groups already protect ships all over the sea. There's a, there's a vast, again, a market of security crews Kind of doing whatever they want at sea and then dealing with regulations after they come to land. It's a, it's a very fascinating world out there, and it's- Pretty safe when it comes to crime." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:06", "start": 1506.47, "text": "This show brought to you by mempool dot space, the world's leading Bitcoin visualizer, and now they've got an accelerator program. So if you have a transaction that you sent at a fee that was too low to get confirmed, now you can fix this at, with the mempool accelerator. The way it works, you can go and search your transaction, scroll down, click accelerator, and you don't need an account, you can pay with Lightning, and then it'll show you it's now in the process of being accelerated, and then after a few minutes, To help you out if you are stuck, and this can happen where maybe your wallet doesn't have RBF or CPFP, or it might help you in situations where it's impractical to go and re-sign. So for example, multisig with keys in different locations. And thirdly, even in some lightning scenarios, perhaps a forced close, you might not be able to use RBF, and so in this case, the mempool accelerator can help you out. So keep it in mind, and you can find out more over at mempool dot space slash accelerator. This show brought to you by CoinK Creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices, such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on the, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now, you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Befiktor Desktop. Or Nunchuk, as a few examples. Now, you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices, such as passphrases. You can use seed x or, or my favorite is multi-signature. Now, if you're starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. But I believe these devices are great at helping secure your coins, especially as you start to migrate up into multi-signature security. But But don't be disheartened or don't be, scared away. They are accessible, and I think you actually do learn about Bitcoin in the process. So to get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code Livera to get a discount on your cold card. And now, back to the show. Yeah. Okay. And then, in terms of, as an example, dealing with things like food and supplies. Now, I guess, you know, just like we do at home, I mean, you gotta go buy groceries from the supermarket or get 'em delivered. In the land context, some people like to grow their own food. as I understand, this is also part of what, you know, seasteading, there'll be, there are, there are efforts to grow Food and fish out there." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "27:48", "start": 1668.37, "text": "Yeah, some of the most interested seasteaders who may not even care about the ideology are trying to get seaweed farms, seafood farms, I call them sea crops. There's like ten thousand species of edible algae, with much more healthy than corn, wheat, and soy, and better for the environment. They require no fresh water or soil. And there's all sorts of people trying to scale this up, and they're saying, \"Well, I'm gonna need dormitories for my workers.\" Some of those people have reached out to us thinking we already have seasteads. but that's the future. I mean, the food on cruise ships is superb There are islands all over the world that don't grow much. I mean, every island in the world prospers by trade with the rest of the world. Trade is the way to wealth. So you have to provide a nee- a unique service To get the food you like out there. But growing edible sea crops is easy, that was another test that that first rinky-dink prototype passed off the coast of Thailand. Which was Nadia started growing, you know, in the two months they were out there, they passed the wine test in a storm, Nadia, the heroine of my next book was growing seaweed and then catching fish and, and serving tuna tartare and taking pictures and uploading it to Facebook. This was blowing my mind, like everything in my book that I described could work on a floating city, they were p-proving worked in this tiny floating home. and the reason the Seasteading Institute is so earnest to get a flag, they were in the process of trying to acquire a flag. They didn't think anyone would care about this little prototype. They wanted a demonstration project to show the government of Thailand and say, \"See, it works. Can we build more just outside your territorial waters?\" if they had acquired that flag, if they'd had time, the Thailand's aggression against this rinky-dink seastead would have been an act of war against the flagging states and thus the family of nations And that's why they immediately panicked and started claiming, \"Oh, it's actually was inside our territorial waters.\" Thailand was very nervous immediately after it happened when, Ocean Builders immediately, while on the run, threatened to sue them in international law. And I've, I'm almost finished with a whole book about this amazing true adventure that they lived. They lived an amazing action adventure that I'm gonna publish soon. But I don't want that, that kind of thing to happen again. We, we have to go through the known process of, certifying, insuring, and flagging a novel structure at sea. And the only challenge with seasteads is they're new things. They're not floatels and they're not sea pillars. They're a combination of both, and they stay at sea permanently. So the nonprofit on behalf of all these companies has to work with this s-process to get these things flagged and legal. And I'm telling you The, the marine engineers are well ahead of the maritime lawyers. The marine engineers have solved the problem. Now, they've solved the engineering problem, they're driving down the price to make it competitive with beachfront property. By the way, three hundred sixty degree ocean view, three hundred sixty degree aquarium view. I mean, it's extraordinary," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:21", "start": 1880.66, "text": "yeah. Can you give us a rough idea while we're talking about price? Can you give us just a rough idea what is the kind of range for, you know, for, you know, at today's prices, for some of these seasteads? Like, how much would, how much is it gonna cost you?" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "31:36", "start": 1895.99, "text": "So the first ones that are close to land are in the hundreds of thousands, but seasteaders are interested in the one that they say cost them about six million to produce. Which is that single family luxury home, all the bells and whistles and everything. they are earnest to take that price down. Think about it, this is the first one. So they had to discover all this, and so far they're selling their stuff at cost. That's how much they want to make this happen. Now, I, I think the next one will be a lot cheaper, but you can also make it more luxurious. As you get beyond this bare bones thing. By the way, the thing that currently exists, which I, we, I don't have good videos of, is you come with a jet ski, you ride up into this jet ski, the jet ski elevator lifts you up Into, into the seasteading. and there, I think" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:30", "start": 1950.02, "text": "that's like, that already exists now, right? Just, you don't have a video of it. That it already exists now." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "32:34", "start": 1953.96, "text": "So, you know, these guys are talking about, okay, we want a submarine to come in so the-- you can make these more expensive and more luxurious, you can make them bigger, but the key is, to make the next ones cheaper, and they're for sale. they're, they're taking customers, they're taking down payments. And, I think the first business was named by Titus Gable himself, you know, founder of many companies and now very interested in The Free Cities Foundation and running that, it's called the CB&B. So, Nadia, the amazing Thai cook, was planning on rushing, a tie, a, a fi-a fish restaurant that floats on the ocean with an underwater room as a hotel. Now, tell me that business wouldn't work. They, they did research of all the underwater hotels in the world. Some of them thousands of dollars a night, some of them ten thousand dollars a night, and it's just a thing on land with one room that goes under the water, and then you can look out your window cool! Now imagine it's floating out at sea, windows in every direction. You can scuba dive around it and watch the floating cor- the coral garden that naturally grows on your seastead. Which will be a, a prophylactic against any objection, you're gonna come out and, and destroy the seastead now that we have a floating coral garden with fish and molluscs growing on it this is such a powerful argument that, environmentalists demand off the coast of California that decommissioned, oil rigs They'd just be cut off at the top and the underwater part be left as it is, because anything solid on the sea attracts amazing sea life and fishermen fish at it Most of the ocean is a desert. You put anything solid out there, life attaches to it, and you increase the amount of life on the ocean. So already this first seastead at sea it's already growing life on it. It's already has fish living on it, has little things growing on it. I, we have nice videos of that which I tried to show in my talk. And by the way, by my definition, it's not a truly a seasteading unless it has any measure Of political autonomy. Which there's two ways to get that. One, you, right now it's flagged in territorial waters of Panama as a houseboat I, I, we think you could maybe go to the Bahamas and flag it as a Bahamas flag in the territorial waters of Panama. Now you'd have some arbitrage. If that's too complicated, then you move it twelve miles out. Now you're in the contiguous zone. As long as you follow up Small number of common sense rules, you have considerable autonomy, to experiment with new forms of governance peacefully, voluntarily. No shooting, no voting, no elections, just creativity, skin in the game If, if you believe in your ideology, go seasteading. If you don't seasteading, you don't believe in it. That's how I feel. So then you stop arguing forever, and we spend all our time creating Instead of arguing, that's the future on the sea. A hundred thousand nano nations coming soon, scaling up fast, setting better examples. That change governance on land as fundamentally as Hong Kong changed Communist China, as the Cayman Islands competes with the United States. Attracting financial mavericks and, healthcare mavericks, by the way. Why doesn't the US just invade? I have a great story. Barack Obama gave a speech while he was president I talk about this in my book. Suddenly going public criticizing the Cayman Islands. The next day, this, this country, which at the time had like fifty-seven thousand people, no hesitation, wrote a public letter I'm reminding the US government of the services the Cayman Islands provides to businesses in the US." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "37:07", "start": 2227.34, "text": "it was never mentioned again. Not, you know, not mentioning that, yeah, many powerful people. That would try to change the laws in regard to the relationship with the Cayman Islands already used Cayman Islands services. and that was it, the matter was dropped. The Cayman Islands still continues to, to flourish We need hundreds of thousands of those, all very small, all just providing, providing services that the world likes, just like cruise ships. Everything they say about seasteads W-was said about cruises when they started out, \"Oh, it's just rich people who want to live their own lives.\" Well, they, they drove the price down, and now m-middle class people from the West board cruise ships, and they're of every variety, and I've, I've written, written on a few of them. There's your, there's taking your entire mall to Alaska, camping and taking your mall with you. I did that, and I also did the National Geographic cruise to the Galapagos Islands. Which, was a small cruise ship and it was for outdoorsmen and you had to hike to the top of hills and you had to respect the environment. Everything you could want on your private floating city is already being provided on cruise ships, and we need to build more of those and keep them at sea, and it's doable. It's doable, it's not hard. Everybody s- needs to give up on this crazy idea, insane, that you're gonna give ninety percent of your attention To arguing about politics on land. Your grandchildren are gonna be laughing at you. This, this superstition that you're gonna argue your way to changing your society, they're not even gonna understand why their floating societies work. They're not gonna understand why they revolutionized governance on land. It's just gonna work, just like I don't understand how this computer works. Because we're gonna choose. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:05", "start": 2345.44, "text": "fascinating." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "39:06", "start": 2346.4, "text": "People are gonna compete for it. Yeah, I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:07", "start": 2347.48, "text": "like that idea, because it's, I mean, it's a similar thing, right? Even, when, when I drive a car, it's not that I know how to, all the mechanical engineering, you know, I just know how to drive the car. That's kind of, that, you know, so I think it'll be an analogy Is, giving them an option or giving them a good, good services, good value of money or maybe more security or maybe luxury, maybe it's a, it's a luxury service, who knows, right? Maybe some of these-- And like you said, maybe some of these things start out as kind of, luxury, a billionaire playtoy kind of thing, but then eventually it's gonna come down over time, the price will come down, and it'll become accessible for more people. And I think that's a really interesting, you know, competitive governance idea. Now Like that idea that, there'll be lots of, competition, and I think that's really gonna change, the governance right now, because today, you know, in the, the UN, what is it, one hundred and ninety-three countries or whatever, something like that, but if we could have a world of thousands of these kind of little mini-nations out there, then I think that really creates a, a big, you know, benefit for various people, right? As you said, it could be people who wanna do Let's say some kind of medical technology that's not approved on, approved by the land government, or it could be, something that can be done lower cost out in the sea that can't be done low cost on the land. so I think those could be, you know, there's all kinds of markets. I, I, I presume, you could maybe find things that are maybe it's a market that's viable if you do it out on the sea, but it's not viable on land. So I'm curious if you have any, I'm sure you probably examples of that. So could you share any examples you've seen of this kind of thing, of businesses or models that are viable out in the sea, but aren't viable on land?" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "41:06", "start": 2465.71, "text": "So twenty twenty-six, I imagine, a, a CB&B business, and people are trying out, and they're making their- Their cell phone videos, isn't this cool? Ecotourists are going to it. Oh my god, this is, this is the next step beyond sustainability. This is eco-restorative. Every seastead we build is good for the ocean environment. Okay, you're winning hearts and minds. twenty thirty, the-- I think the way to pay for the big ones is, is medical research, biotech research But really, it won't even be ideologues choosing these things. I, I think twenty, thirty, twenty thirty-five, you'll just be scaling up fish farms. You'll just be scaling up farms for sea crops. And my book opens with a whole thing about how this would work better than the farms we have on land and be better for the environment and be healthier for people eating it. You know, there's, there's ten thousand, maybe eight thousand, depending on how you count it, edible species of algae, none of which have gone through the artificial selection process that have made corn, wheat, and soy so, so productive and so unhealthy and bad for the environment and bad for the soil and bad for the oceans. And, there's, there's ocean crops in your toothpaste, it's in your beer, it's in your peanut butter, it's in your coffee creamer. We, we already have all this, sea crops in our- Common products every day. It's easier to scale this up on the sea. You, you can, you can have vast seaweed farms on the ocean, and this is the vision of many seaweed farmers who don't know anything about seasteading, except they're like, \"Well, I don't wanna transport- My worker's out there all the time. And of course, fish farms are much better on the deep sea than they are close to land. Fish poop is the problem So, the sea steddar featured in my book made, fish cages that float at sea. The fish are more healthy. They have no parasites, no biofoullants are used. They live better than wild, 'cause they're in the, the cages, float around at sea and they're protected from predators and they're fed a rich diet to make them, you know, this could be scaled up. One of the problems is, if you gotta go so far out there, you gotta get your guys working out there. That's why those guys Know about seasteading. Then they get nervous when they hear about, \"Oh, wait, it's a political thing. I thought it was just a business.\" Okay, once you have, once you have fish farms, once you have, Farms for ocean crops. Once you just have CB&Bs, and once you have sheiks. I'm, I'm in, Saudi Arabia right now, trying to pitch this to sheiks. Wouldn't it be cool to have one of these as one of your homes?" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "43:58", "start": 2637.93, "text": "once you have those, then you're scaling up to, biotech research. Before you know it, people who live in bad governments are just moving there for jobs." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "44:09", "start": 2649.49, "text": "w-w-what is it? It's getting close to a billion people w- could, would leave their government if they had a place to go. They could go to Seasteading, just like they go to cruise ships right now. What impressed me about ProWIT on my cruise ship is that he only got to be on a cruise ship six months out of the year And he had to leave his family, and he spent, we were so friendly with him, he spent a lot of time gently trying to hustle us, \"Oh, come, come visit us in Thailand. We, you could stay with us and...\" Maybe char- you know, he, he's trying to figure out, now how do I make a living the other six months out of the year? That's what I realized he was doing." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "44:47", "start": 2687.36, "text": "but what if he could bring his whole family out there and stay out there forever? He has a much better standard of living on the cruise ship, and his, his great pain is probably he doesn't get to be with his family. there are people all over the world that want a better place to go, and you just need to offer them blue jobs. The sky's the limit once you have floating Venices out there. Floating airports are possible. There's an incentive to get bigger, to provide better governance so more people will attach to your floating Venice, because the wider you go, the more stable you are, and the, and the more deeper waves you can go into. And if you don't like your neighbors, you can vote with your house and move your whole city block to another governance service provider. there's station keeping, all the technologies we need for seasteading already work at sea, they're all just in different things. We need to combine them." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:42", "start": 2741.64, "text": "The lead sponsor of this show is Bold, the best place to buy, sell, and save Bitcoin. For listeners in the US, Bold lets you secure your financial future with complete peace of mind by integrating a low fee Bitcoin only brokerage with next gen multisig vaults. With Bold, you can smash buy Bitcoin or set a DCA plan for only zero point nine nine percent fees and seamlessly deposit the Bitcoin direct to your Bold Vault. The Bold Vault is a two or three collaborative multisig where you hold two keys and Bold holds one as a redundant backup. Backup, protecting against loss or theft. 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You have to think exactly what works for you, for your family, for your business. And Nomad Capitalist have worked across dozens of different countries. They've helped people get passports, residences Bank accounts and all kinds of other things. And importantly, it's not just about choosing one place, it may be multiple places, and it may be also about making the pieces fit together in terms of how your business fits with your family and you as an individual. Nomad Capitalist have helped many, many people in terms of going overseas, and if you're interested, go to nomadcapitalist dot com slash apply. This is applicable for people with a net worth above one million US dollars. That's nomadcapitalist dot com slash apply. And now Back to the show. Yeah, interesting. yeah, I mean, even as you're speaking now, you're saying floating airports, and I'm thinking, well, there's already, you know, I mean, it's a military example, but there's already carrier ships, right? There are already planes that can, you know, take off and land on these out at sea. There's already, or another example is, the kind of fly-in, fly-out example of oil rigs, right? There are people who work on oil rigs and they're there maybe a few months You know, maybe there's some, there could be some parallels there of like it could be, yeah, like you said, maybe it starts out as like something that people go and work out a few months at a time, then fly home and fly and fly out, but eventually maybe it could grow to the level that they don't actually need to fly home and they actually just live out there, and, you know, get, get, get supplies flown out there or, or shipped out there, you know, with a carrier ship." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "48:32", "start": 2912.05, "text": "They, they already do this in the North" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "48:36", "start": 2916.19, "text": "in the world. And they play ping pong and pool and live out there for months at a time, you know, floating, next to an oil rig that is also floating. And, and these are dormitories, and, you know, one of them houses like five hundred workers. and they get flown back and forth, and they have to deal-- they're dangerous, they have to deal with accidents, they have to have, you know, medical sort of hospitals on the thing, and if something is really bad, they have to- Fly people back to a hospital on land, but they do, tele-surgery. Oil rigs and stuff are dangerous, man. People get hurt, and if you have a big cut Sometimes there's a guy on land working with a robot to, to sew up somebody's foot. Like," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:19", "start": 2959.3, "text": "yeah, operating a robot to do surgery, that's kind of insane. But, yeah, I mean, it makes sense, but it's wild when you think about it. And it only" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "49:26", "start": 2966.34, "text": "works 'cause there's so much friggin' money in fossil fuels. But we could, we could make all those things, it's a, now it's a price challenge, make all those things cheaper, put them in the, at the equator where there are no hurricanes. A, a thousand mile wide band, a wide band circles this world where the waves don't get higher than five meters, say five point three in some places. because the, the waves are caused by, you know, hurricanes are ca-caused by the Coriolis force, the spinning of the Earth, and they all spin away from the center of, of the, of the Earth So, there's, matter of fact, think of them as the doldrums or the, or the horse latitudes, where ships that rely on wind would just get stuck and people would starve and die of thirst 'cause they can't move 'cause there's so little wind, and waves are caused by wind. There's a vast area of the ocean bigger than Asia where you can safely make seasteads. But of course, the cameras point at the North Sea and the pirates and say, \"Oh my God, the, the ocean is so dangerous.\" But the, the oceans are as diverse as the land. someday your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren, they're gonna be living at sea and they're gonna say, \"Oh my God, how did you live on land? It, it looks like you could, you could fall off those Himalayas and, and the wind is so strong and you can barely breathe.\" And grandpa's gonna be The cameras at. You know, there's, there, there's the Sahara Desert and there's the high Himalayas and there's-- well, the oceans are more diverse than the land, and they're more than twice as big." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:02", "start": 3061.76, "text": "so we're gonna," }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "51:02", "start": 3062.42, "text": "we're gonna live out there long before we go to Mars." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:06", "start": 3065.6, "text": "Yeah, I, I think that, that makes a lot of sense to me. let's talk a little bit about the structures of these things right now. As you've spelled out, there's, you know, this kind of single pillar style, you know, small, let's say, you know, one or two people, and then maybe slightly bigger, that's like a family thing, and maybe you might eventually get to a stage where there's a, I don't know what the word would want to be nearby other people, or maybe there'll be some people who are like, \"No, screw you, I want to be out on my own, out, out, out at deep sea.\" But I, I could imagine people would want to be, you know, in the same reason people move to cities and towns, because they want to be near other people. And so maybe that, there could be kind of, that structure there. could you spell out a little bit about what the different structures might look like here?" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "51:55", "start": 3115.27, "text": "Well, the sea pillar that's floating now, you think of it as a wine bottle, pour out the wine, fill the bottom with some sand, stick the cork back in. I made a kind of funny little video in my hot tub where I put a wine bottle in there and I balanced a rubber ducky on the cork. And then I made waves with my hands and the waves move and the rubber ducky balances on the cork and it, and it looks great. And it looks like an optical illusion. Is that thing-- is that a shallow thing and it's sitting on the, on the floor? No, it's floating. So that was me being Carl Sagan explaining how this works. so as long as you have deep ballast, you can, you can solve all these problems with basic engineering. So right now we have a, a, a floating home in Panama that works, it's stable in waves. So there's that. We spoke about, these oil rig workers living at sea. Those are called floatels They're as big as hotels, they can house hundreds of people, and those are sort of four spars with very heavy ballast on, on four different ones to create like a table that's stable at sea, and that's designed for super high waves You could make that at one percent of the size and station it in calm equatorial waters. the next challenge is, the real challenge for seasteads is, how do you make these things stay at sea permanently? So the goal is these things stay at sea for centuries. And what Ocean Builders is doing i-is what we've described, I've just, I think I described it in the book and in videos. You might know it as bio-rock or coralcrete, which is you run an electrical current through the steel And it naturally attracts calcium carbonate, the same material that seashells are made of. Last I checked, ocean builders have devised a means to triple the speed of this natural process. Once you're encased in a seashell, the, the steel is protected from corrosion. now you have a coral reef growing on your seastead, which naturally attracts life, and it becomes very beautiful. The challenge is the ocean-air interface where the waves go up and down. Now that will create some rust. So there, you know, you solve that the same way you solve it with boats. It's easy to raise and lower the seastead with, These ballast bags, and you have to paint it, I don't know, every six months or something. there's another seasteader, working, in the Bay Area with geopolymer concrete So Roman concrete has been underwater for thousands of years, and it's, it's still there. and, and the, the process to make it has been lost. You can't reverse engineer a chemical process. It has something to do with volcanic ash. and lime, but we don't know exactly, but lots of people have tried to figure it out, and a sea stater named Michael Elliott, made some breakthroughs with, with, geopolymer concrete which again is environmentally benign, every pound of carbon you put into geopolymer concrete is a pound of carbon you take out of the environment if you care about that. It also uses fly ash, like a, a, when a land concrete creates fly ash as a byproduct, which is dumped into landfills. Geopolymer concrete uses fly ash in its construction, it's required. So when this thing is floating at sea, it doesn't corrode at all, and it's, it's heavy, and you can make it deep. Now, I don't know what his progress is, but he's self funding that and has one funder to move forward that kind of material science. there are other products that ArcPad is working with, that's-- those are the guys in Indonesia" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "56:02", "start": 3361.85, "text": "I can't remember the name of it now, but it doesn't corrode in seawater, and the challenge with that is it's expensive. But once again, we don't need to know all this, all we need is competition. We, we have, those are like the three c-leading sea-steading companies, they're already competing in the area of, of material science. I really like the bio-rock myself. Coral Crete. and I, I, I think the first seasteads will be those. But if it never has to come to land, I mean, boats they stay stable at sea by moving And they naturally attract mussels, and seaweed and all this life and barnacles, and then they have to pull this thing out of the water 'cause it, 'cause it interferes with the movement and scrape all this stuff, stuff off. And the land folk and the boat people call this biofouling Seasteaders call it a garden. Most of that stuff is edible, man. You can cultivate this stuff, and if you stay in one spot, the fish come. And they come immediately, as I demonstrated in my video, I showed it my Liberty in Our Lifetime talk." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "57:13", "start": 3432.7, "text": "and, I, I think we have to move very fast if we wanna innovate faster than governments can control with their monopolies. have, have I answered your question?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:26", "start": 3446.37, "text": "Yeah, no, I think that's great. let's, let's finish on this then. So what, what are you looking for? what are kind of ways if people are interested, what's the best way for them to learn more about it?" }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "57:38", "start": 3457.83, "text": "Go to the Seasteading Institute, any question you have, type it at next to Seasteading, and, and I've made two minute videos answering all the standard questions, including water world and pirates and waves and hurricanes and tsunamis, each like a two minute video With links to all the research, 'cause most of the time you're gonna say, \"That can't be true,\" and it is true. Understanding seasteading requires you to overthrow every paradigm you have on land 'Cause it's completely different living on the ocean, and, and so it's, it's very exciting to learn about, and now we're doing it, and the last remaining challenge is two, people not understanding it And number one, the legal challenge of making these things legal on the seas and stopping all the cowboys from doing crazy stuff. I appreciate the cowboys, I appreciate the log cabins, but now we need to make the town. just like any frontier. So the Sea State Institute needs to ten x its budget. We can't be this rinky-dink little, nonprofit in the ghetto of the libertarian movement where everyone says that's crazy. You landfolk are crazy. What are you gonna write another academic paper that's gonna change everyone's mind? Suppose you change the mind of all eight billion people who all become anarcho-capitalists, the state won't go away 'cause the incentives are there, and, you know, if you made me government czar of all book writing I'd become the Caligula of authors within a couple months, 'cause I'm human just like everybody else. But out at sea, the incentives change. if, if I compete to, you know, we're not good, we're not evil, we're a family species. So if I c-compete to serve my family by serving strangers, that's a good thing. If I compete to serve my family by having power over strangers, that becomes a problem, and that's what working for the government provides. Out at sea, the dictator on your cruise ship is forced to compete to serve you and keep you safe from crimes and from strokes that your grandma might have and all that stuff. So we need this to be a legit structure at sea that flagging registries respect, that once the first one is flagged All those flagging registries start competing to provide better deals to a variety of seasteading communities. We're gonna scale up these technologies fast, and the nonprofit needs to tenx its budget Because I can't keep talking to the American Bureau of Shipping, and these certification societies and these flagging registries who all think we're a billionaire seer-sea-uh Anyone who looks at the Seasteading Institute assumes we're wealthy 'cause we accomplished so much so fast and we're in all the news, and it looks like we're a powerhouse. We're a two-person nonprofit. It's me and Carly, with a, a, a whole lot of small donors. More than a thousand people have donated to the Seasteading Institute, but we basically have three devoted donors who get everything that I explain to you. And are inspired by it and see it. We need the big donors. How about one percent of the stuff you put into arguing and negotiating with states? And put that into the Seasteading Institute so we can make this legal on the seas, scale up freedom on the seas, provide the blue jobs that are being taken away from Morozan. I can't even say Morozan without getting choked up." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "01:01:18", "start": 3678.61, "text": "go, go found your, your, biotech company at sea if you really think it's gonna work. We're gonna need to s- go buy an ArcPad If you want a fish farm, go buy an ArcPad in Ocean-- in Indonesia. Look up ArcPad. If you want to run a CB&B, if you want a cool second home Go to Ocean Builders and, and buy a, a sea pod. Give those guys faith that somebody cares. When, when they put their ass on the line and bought a whole cruise ship Because they thought libertarians were gonna come out and buy all the rooms, and that didn't happen. That shook them, and they're coming to me saying, \"I thought there were all these seasteaders ready to move in,\" and I'm like, \"Well, they, there aren't.\" I, I have a few, a few came down there and, and bought places, but they, they had to be reimbursed by ocean builders because they didn't get enough customers. But, but now they're starting small with just a few, one person could buy it. Give those guys hope. Be, be their second cust- be their first customer, their first real customer that buys one. So if, if you wanna support ArcPad or Ocean Builders, buy a friggin' ArcPad or a SeaPod. It's amazing, go check it out. If you want them to be free at sea, you need to donate big to the Seasteading Institute because we need to start working with maritime lawyers, working with my two dozen volunteers is not cutting it. The days of, the days of volunteers is over. We need to be professionals. the Seasteading Institute, Institute needs to develop the certification society or talk a certification society into integrating this new technology into what they certify. I mentioned in my talk my brother-in-law is like a insurance bigwig, and he introduced us to a marine insurance broker, and he's scrambling around trying to broker a deal Because he's not a seasteader, he's trying to make money. The ocean industry, some of the forward-thinking people already see it and they're trying to get in first, and they don't know the institute, which they hear about on the news Is just running on a six-figure budget. We need a seven-figure budget if we're gonna close a deal, work through this whole process, and flag the first Seasteed. So here's what, what I'm proposing. If, if you donate, say, fifty K to the Seasteading Institute, we're gonna, we're gonna put your name on the plaque of the first flagged seastead at the base of the flag. And, this will be remembered in history. For me, it's like the moon landing. The, the first Rinky Dink SeaPod had a passing resemblance to the moonlander by design, 'cause that's what they thought they were doing. And they named their Rinky Dink Seasteed XLI, they pronounce it Ixley, which is the number forty-two, which, every nerd known as the nerd knows is the answer to life, the universe, and everything So Seasteaders see it, and once you see it, you'll never argue about politics again. You're gonna be working to build seasteads. But to make it legal, the, the role of the nonprofit is no longer to communicate and research, because we know what to do. We need to make the first flagged seastead happen and be respected in international law and be respected by marine insurance brokers and to have all these Flagging registries like the one in Palau, who's, who's reached out to us, competing to provide a variety of governance services to seasteaders, and then your desire for freedom will be solved on the blue frontier, and will set examples that will change your land government much faster than any argument in any research paper. And any new, new book you're gonna publish that only libertarians are gonna read. It's, it's not an argument, it's a technology." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:05:36", "start": 3936.64, "text": "Yeah, I think it's, fascinating, as you said, technology and, with definitely, I think, you know, if you fast forward the clock ten or twenty years, I think it'll have some implications for libertarians and, you know, what it means. so yeah, I'll leave it there. Listeners, check out Joe Quirk. I'll put the links in the show notes and the website Seasteading dot org. Joe, thanks for joining me today." }, { "speaker": "joe_quirk", "time": "01:05:59", "start": 3959.47, "text": "It's been a delight, thank you." } ] }