{ "episodeId": "SLP618", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "tom_nelson": { "name": "Tom Nelson", "role": "guest", "tag": "TOM" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:11", "start": 11.13, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Bold, the place to buy, save and store your Bitcoin in your own two of three multisig over at getbold.io. That's for the American listeners. Now joining me today is Tom Nelson, and he's known for his work in the, you know, in the climate World, and, I, I know you are also the producer of this movie, Climate the Movie. So we're gonna get into all of that. But first of all, welcome to the show." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "00:40", "start": 39.65, "text": "Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate you doing this. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:43", "start": 43.4, "text": "So, let's start. I think one thing I think you're known for talking about is this idea that carbon isn't the temperature knob. So I think that's probably the, the, a key point to maybe start on there. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "00:57", "start": 57.35, "text": "Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the critical point I think of the whole thing that we have this whole fifty trillion dollar possibly scam based on the idea that carbon dioxide or CO2 is the climate control knob. And if we just add more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, then the, Get warmer and bad things are gonna happen, but that is not true at all. That is just one of maybe thousands of factors. So the whole idea that, we can control Earth's climate by, emitting CO2, it's just not true at all. It's amazing this whole thing has lasted for decades and so many people believe it, but it, it's not true. There's no evidence whatsoever. It's one of many, many factors." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:34", "start": 93.83, "text": "Of course, yeah, and I'm sure we're gonna, we're gonna dive into various aspects of this also. But I think what" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:43", "start": 103.28, "text": "Like of people saying, \"Oh, no, by this decade, you know, this island is gonna be underwater or this, you know, the polar bears or, you know, and every decade, you know,\" and you could argue as well, I, I know there was a recent or sort of recent one where I think, everyone's favorite climate activist, Greta, Greta Thunberg came out saying, \"Oh, if this, if it's not by this date, it's all over,\" and then that date actually passed and it was sort of really awkward," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:11", "start": 130.57, "text": "What's driving some of this catastrophism, this kind of extreme alarmism?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "02:16", "start": 136.03, "text": "Yeah, I think it's a combination of factors. I do think one huge part of it is just simple, groupthink. I think there are a bunch of people who are, going to work every day thinking they're saving the planet. They actually believe CO2 is the climate control knob. They think the weather's getting worse and, whatever, people are-- more people are dying now than they were in the past for, weather disasters. They think, all sorts of things that And, they can think of themselves as, hero because they're fighting against the people who don't believe. So I think groupthink is a big part of it, but power and control is also another huge part of it, because I think as Richard Lindzen says that if you can control carbon, you can control life, you can con-control everything we do, you can-control how much meat we eat and how much we fly and wh-what car we drive and what-how we heat our house, all that stuff. You can control everything about us if you can convince people that CO People to save human civilization. So it's, it's power control and groupthink, it's a combination." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:17", "start": 196.63, "text": "Yeah. And so let's try to put this in context as, as I, as I know you do in the movie, and I will just say for listeners, obviously I'll put the link in the show notes, climate-the-movie dot net. I, I enjoyed it, I thought it was a great movie. but if you wanna maybe explain in your words, where did this kind of recent round of climate catastrophism or whatever climate scam, whatever we're calling it It evolve and what, what would you say has been the public perception over, you know, that time?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "03:47", "start": 226.67, "text": "Yeah, I mean, it goes back a long way to maybe to the 1950s or 60s. There's a guy who's been on my podcast a couple times, Jakob Nordengard, and he talks about, the Rockefellers were involved in Maurice Strong and the UN, and it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but they really were, I think, looking for a, some sort of problem that they could use to control us all, and I think" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "04:10", "start": 250.31, "text": "Some sort of a global problem that they needed to control us. So, that scare went off and on for quite a while, and, to me, I started, looking at it more, most carefully when Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth came out in around two thousand and six or two thousand and seven. Yeah, yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:26", "start": 265.66, "text": "yeah. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "04:26", "start": 266.24, "text": "yeah. So, you can look at Google searches and, news searches and see that there was a huge peak of hysteria around then, because people, I, I talked to a lot of people, even people who are skeptics" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "04:40", "start": 280.21, "text": "biggest problem ever. And, so it was, effective propaganda, but, all sorts of things he said in that movie were, of course, a complete crock. He scared us about polar bears and twenty feet of sea level rise and additional hurricanes, whatever. The whole thing, the, the whole scare is a complete propaganda, 'cause none of the stuff that is supposed to scare us, none of it, zero percent of it is true. So, yeah. So there was a peak of hysteria then, and I think, yeah, The yearly climate meetings have, I think, around number twenty-nine now. It's been going on, in the end of the year for, that many years, and, I, I think it has peaked now as we look at it, more and more, because people are figuring out the lies of COVID. So, I, I don't know how much I can say on this stream without getting you in trouble, but people have figured out that there's, the, alleged experts have lied to us about so many things. And I Because they found out we were being lied to, about our health, and, that makes me happy. I think the, elites went for the great reset, and they got the great awakening. I'm seeing that all the time, and I'm loving it. I'm totally loving it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:52", "start": 352.1, "text": "I'm, I'm with you there. And I think for me, it's one of those things where, like, I was, you know, anti-the climate scam, you know, I've been anti-the climate scam for a while myself, and, when all" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:08", "start": 368.11, "text": "the You're not allowed to look at it, you're not allowed to challenge it, and because of our special model, and the world doesn't align with our little model, we need to do X, Y, Z social control, economic control, and, you know, all these kinds of aspects of controlling people. And the, the, the parallels are almost perfect." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "06:28", "start": 387.54, "text": "Yeah, definitely the blind faith in alleged experts and blind faith in models. You're not supposed to believe anything you see or hear yourself, you have to outsource your thinking to somebody else. And I'm so happy that, tons of 'Cause if you do any sort of sanity checking on this climate scam, like I keep saying, if you're an ordinary person, you have access to Google, you can go down any one of these rabbit holes for yourself. You don't have to be a climatologist to figure out the polar bears are doing fine and the hurricanes aren't getting worse and cyclones and droughts and floods. that's part of the reason I like to do this so much myself is that it's so easy to do. It's so easy to debunk this stuff." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:03", "start": 422.74, "text": "Right, yeah, a-and I think there's a lot of people who've been talking about these kinds of things. Alex Epstein has also been talking about this kind of thing, by zooming out and saying, \"Well, actually, the number of climate-de- related deaths is, you know, if you chart that out, it's going down.\" and, you know, the, these elements of understanding that we need wealth, we need economic wealth, and we need cheap and reliable energy, and I think this is an important thing because right now, you know, to the point People, now it seems like, as you said, I agree with you that it's kind of, it's on the way down, it's kind of on the way out. People are, less people are believing it, especially now with the election of Trump. I think it's seen as Trump is like, \"Drill, baby, drill,\" and we're, you know, we don't need to worry about this scam. But, I, I think the other element is if you look around the world, you see, you know, this concept of net zero, which is again, I It seems like net zero is almost taken for granted. I'm curious, why, why is that? Do you think, do you just put that back to the same groupthink, or is it something else at play there?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "08:11", "start": 491.37, "text": "No, I, I think it is, it is groupthink. But, but this whole idea of treating CO2 as a pollutant is crazy because in the air outside of our houses right now, there's maybe four hundred and twenty-five parts per million CO2, and as we're talking here, we're emitting forty thousand parts per million CO2, or almost a hundred times as Like fighting oxygen as a pollutant. It, it's amazing that this, whole hysteria has gone on as long as, as it has. I, I talked to Richard Lindzen about it, and I think he said, maybe in the nineteen-- maybe twenty years ago, he, he was already shocked that it went on this long. James Hansen actually, spoken, I think it was in front of a Senate hearing in nineteen eighty-eight, and that was one thing even way before, Al Gore came on the scene that, kind of kicked off," }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "09:03", "start": 543.38, "text": "as it is, there's, it's crumbling right around us as we speak. I'm watching it every single day. I've been kinda looking at this every single day for close to twenty years myself with Google searches and stuff, and I'm seeing a lot of causes for, optimism if you want sanity to return 'cause it is, it's coming back." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:20", "start": 559.68, "text": "I see it like so many big governments around the world, they just swallowed the propaganda, or they, you know, they helped cause it with some of their research funding. So, you know, but either way, whether they caused it or they swallowed the propaganda, it's-- they've just taken it for granted. Oh, the world needs to go to net zero. Therefore, and, and then kind of, once you accept that premise, there's all these other little things that come out of it, right? So as an example, oh, well, EVs are automatically better than any ice, ice Or there's kind of this underlying premise that, you know, developers need to build their buildings with this kind of net-zero sustainable, and they've managed to very, very much propagandize the term sustainable and sort of claim it as their own, right? Because otherwise we could sort of say, \"Well, what's economically sustainable?\" Right? The thing that is cheap and reliable and works and, you know, but no, it's seen like if you talk about the word sustainability, that's used in the net-zero and this kind of, this kind of context. So what are some of- What are the implications that you trace out from, you know, once you accept this kind of net zero or carbon is the temperature knob idea, what are some of the insanity, what are some of the insane ideas that follow?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "10:31", "start": 630.8, "text": "Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because the list of completely insane things is just endless. It's, it's unbelievable. one of them is, I've seen it multiple times in peer-reviewed papers, is that to fight CO2, we should have teams of people who cut down trees. That's what they do all the time, is cut down trees We should have teams, I think two hundred thousand teams, maybe it was two million people, that's all they do all day long is they take their hydrocarbon powered chainsaws and they cut down trees and, and they dig big holes and they bury trees. So because there's carbon in the wood and, you wanna put it back in the ground, so that's the justification. But there's so many insane things. I just emailed you, or I sent you this C40 Cities thing, where it's been signed by a whole bunch of mayors, it's still online" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "11:19", "start": 679.16, "text": "They want to allow each of us to buy three pieces of clothing per year, and if you buy that fourth piece, you, you can't do it. You gotta wait till next year beca-- to, to prevent bad weather. That's ridiculous. That's how nuts. And, no dairy for us and no meat for us at all by twenty thirty. That's their ambitious goal in just over five years. No meat and dairy. And the whole payback is supposed to be, th-- this prevents bad weather. But I keep saying we could spend fifty trillion dollars, we And we will see absolutely no measurable weather or climate benefit ever. It's all pain and it's, it's no gain at all. So, yeah, the amount of insanity is just off the charts. It's amazing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:01", "start": 721.16, "text": "I think in one sense, and part of this, I think, you know, even, I guess, the US election recently happened, so I'm kind of thinking about things in that context, but there's perhaps a sense In which people were, let's say, these quote-unquote elite, journalists or let's say propagandists were sort of writing in their ivory tower and they didn't feel the consequences of what they were saying. And I think this is a similar context, right? Because there are people, and they, they're writing in their little journals, their little reports, \"Oh, three articles of clothing per year and cut the supply chain seventy-five percent,\" but they're not feeling it themselves. And as more and more real-world people are feeling the consequences of these things- Whether that's Germany or Australia or other countries that are starting to see the energy prices rising because of all the renewable madness, people are feeling the real outcome, and I think that is what is Driving some of a push towards reality. I'm curious how you're seeing that. Is it that the consequences of some of these policies are coming home to roost?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "13:05", "start": 784.51, "text": "Yeah, I 100% agree with that. That it's so easy, like you say, to sit in your ivory tower and talk about doing all this stuff to prevent bad weather, but then when it actually hits home, when they actually try to take away your gas stove, when they try to take away your real car, and, if they actually try to ban you from eating meat when you wanna eat meat, pe-" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "13:25", "start": 805.12, "text": "Eat meat if they want to, and, they're not gonna be able to prevent us from doing it. I think they had this whole dream of, having a central bank digital currency, and maybe they still will, be able to implement some of this, but they have this whole idea of being able to cut us off. They have control of our finances, and when we're shopping for groceries, they know how much meat we bought this month, and, the, the transaction can't go through if, we buy too much. That's the dream, but people" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:56", "start": 835.52, "text": "Yeah, so I'm curious, because it seems to me that there's some people who do accept that. Now, of course, I don't, but, that, you know, when you talk to certain more-- people who are more willing to accept what their TV tells them, right? Like, or maybe certain people in Europe, let's say, not everyone in Europe, to be clear, but certain people. When I, when I speak to them, I almost get this sense of they just kind of accept it and just go along. I'm curious, do you" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "14:20", "start": 860.14, "text": "see When I go to the airport, it's absolutely packed with people. People, I think they're flying when they want to, and the people sometimes say, \"I've cut back on flying, but I didn't wanna fly that much anyway 'cause I was tired of it.\" It's, they're-- it's just a standard excuse for everything. You can make up some, virtue signaling excuse for doing whatever you wanted to do anyway. So it's a-- this whole thing is a really odd cult. I call it the, a climate cult. It's a very odd cult because even the believers Absolutely not. I, I look at all these high profile people. You look at Al Gore, for example, he's just the classic example. In his book, he says, I have his book, \"We're supposed to accomplish our long haul travel using buses.\" So I, I'm thinking, okay, Al, when is the last time you did a long haul bus trip to try to prevent bad weather? He also says we shouldn't use our dryer. Okay, it's convenient to use your dryer, but you should line dry your clothes. I mean, we used to do that in the old days" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "15:25", "start": 925.14, "text": "The, the convenient, they're gonna use the modern conveniences, and there's no way they're going to, let them, those conveniences be taken away because we're trying to prevent bad weather in twenty seventy-five. You know, i-i-it's a dream for the elites to do this, but it, it can't succeed." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:42", "start": 941.73, "text": "Yeah, I definitely get that sense as well, because there's this sense of, okay, I'm sure you've seen this one as well. There was like that one where I think it was like some politician who took like a, a limo to the event, but then like a couple hundred meters out from the event, they got on the bike and then they rode the bike to the event to sort of virtue signal about, you know, and then everyone's seen like these images of like Elizabeth Warren getting off the private jet or Taylor Swift getting off, you know, Taylor Swift flying around the world" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:12", "start": 971.55, "text": "Climate, this climate, whatever." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "16:15", "start": 974.71, "text": "Yeah, yeah, those are constantly fun for me. it might have been Pete Buttigieg, I don't know how to pronounce his last name, I think he was caught doing that. I think a lot of politicians have been caught doing that, where they'll ride the bike just for the cameras for a hundred yards or something. But yeah, it's all about limos, and of course, when Biden travels around, I think they fly his, they fly his motorcade over there, I think, and then he gets in the motorcade if, And even when Obama was, president, he was, you know, he was scolding us about using too much fossil fuel, but he was taking his plane to Hawaii, his, his private plane to Hawaii. And, they said it was so hot in his office that you could grow orchids in there. That was an actual quote from later on. So the whole idea, we're gonna turn down our thermostat and be cold in the winter here, turn it down to sixty-four Fahrenheit. people just aren't doing that. People are, are happy to try to force other Got quotes about how what he's doing is so important that, it's worth it for him to fly. So everybody has a, a carve out for themselves. So again, nobody wants to, go through any con-convi-inconvenience for this, because they don't truly believe it. I think people are willing to say they believe it, but the amount of people who actually believe this, who behave as if CO2 is gonna kill their kids, it's almost nothing. It's so stupid that even they don't truly believe it, I think." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:36", "start": 1056.43, "text": "Back to the show in First, Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on the, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now, you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Bep20 Desktop or Nunchuk. As a few examples. Now, you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices, such as passphrases, you can use seed x or, or my favorite is multi-signature. 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The Bold Vault is a two or three collaborative multisig where you hold two keys and Bold holds one as a redundant backup, protecting against loss or theft. You can use Trezor, Ledger or cold card hardware wallets to spin up a Bold Vault in just a few minutes, and the Bold Vault is the only collaborative custody vault available with zero monthly fees. They're also offering zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys and twenty five dollars of free Bitcoin when you buy. A hundred dollars of Bitcoin or more. Try Bold today and upgrade your stacking experience over at getbold dot io. And now, back to the show. Yeah, I mean, I, I mostly agree with you, but I, I would say there's definitely been examples where- As an example, Australia was shut-shutting down some of their coal plants. meanwhile, Germany is, is also, you know, was kind of cutting down some of their reliable energy. On the other hand, you got China who's like setting up all these coal plants all the time. So Is it just that some countries got more ideologically captured than others, or how do-- how can we explain that difference?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "20:17", "start": 1216.94, "text": "Yeah, I think that is a big part of it. I think there were, videos of, politicians in the UK who heroically were, pushing the plunger to blow up coal plants, which is, of course, completely crazy. But, I think they think, coal plants are evil, and of course the lights are gonna stay on. We don't have to worry about the lights staying on. All we have to do is maybe put How the, the, grid works. So they think they can just get rid, they can run the whole thing on wind and solar. I think that's a very common misconception that let's just get rid of all hydrocarbons, let's just put up enough solar panels and, wind turbines, and we can run the whole country, we can make our steel using this, and we can run our data centers. But this is all by people who don't actually understand how the real world works. The whole idea that, if we had a blackout trying to run it on wind and Have more of that, that's gonna fix it. People believe this, but when the rubber hits the road, it doesn't work. And people talk about, how much is this green energy work, like a wind turbine, how much is that worth if the wind doesn't blow all the time? And I've heard the, it talking about how, how much would you pay for a car that works only in unpredictable one third of the time? It's kinda like that, that you want a real car that works when you're ready to, to go, and, wind and sun" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "21:40", "start": 1300.2, "text": "Enough batteries to power the US economy and run it on wind and sun, so some people believe, \"Hey, let's just buy enough batteries.\" But that doesn't scale at all either. So there's a lot of craziness by people who haven't actually-- they don't have an engineering background or they don't have any, sense of what re-real life, how real life works. They just don't know." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:59", "start": 1318.61, "text": "Yeah, I think that's right. And what I've seen is more like this tendency of more energy, just more of everything, right? The, the popular, I guess the, if you believe what the TV tells you, you would think, \"Oh, we're shutting down the coal, and we're shutting down natural gas, and we're just doing wind and solar, and maybe a little bit of hydro.\" That's kind of the perception that you would believe if you just believe what the TV tells you. But then if you zoom out and you look at the actual graph of like how much of what" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:28", "start": 1348.05, "text": "Natural gas, and that's just the trend we've seen over time. And to be clear, it's like eighty percent of that is still fossil fuel or hydrocarbon energy. So it's not that we've been, you know, whereas the TV would have us believe, \"Oh, we're in the transition,\" and it's just kind of acknowledged or accepted that everybody agrees, and you're a crazy conspiracy denier if you don't agree with the transition." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "22:51", "start": 1371.01, "text": "Yeah, I 100% agree with everything you just said there, that, yeah, the TV's telling us that the transition is happening, hooray. But like you said, looking at the real graph, it's still, what's really powering us is the hydrocarbons and, nuclear power. I think that, I'm a big fan of that. I think we should put up a lot more of that in the US, 'cause right now, unless we invent something that I'm not aware of, I think that is what we're gonna have" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:22", "start": 1401.55, "text": "Yeah, I, I've agreed with you there. let's get into the topic of science funding and, I guess, the culture that created this, because I think that is arguably also what's driven some of this. Now We could say, you know, the left kind of did this march through, through the institutions, and they've kind of got all these like climate Marx, Marxist types who kind of wanted more left aline, left aligning ideas. but in your documentary, you also get into this and talk a little bit about the funding. So can you explain a bit about how the funding situation has driven some of this outcome?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "24:00", "start": 1439.85, "text": "Yeah, there's this whole deal that we mentioned in the movie that, funding for all kinds of things right now when climate change was the hot thing, that if people were maybe doing butterfly research, they might not get any, any money for that just for the butterfly research. But if you can say, \"I'm researching the effect of climate change on butterflies,\" then you get the funding. And I think this was repeated over and over, thousands and thousands of times, that those are kind of the magic words. If you put those magic words in there, you can get funding. And, Putting climate change in there, so I think a huge portion of climate change funding, whatever, was just put in there just to get the funding. And if you wanted to research, anything on the skeptical side, the, the skeptical scientists, you can't get funding, nearly as easily. The, the Willy Soons of the world, they're not drowning in funding because, they're-- what they're finding is the truth, and it goes against this whole bogus climate change narrative. So I think we really need to, to reverse this and, I, I've done two hundred and sixty podcasts now, and there's tons of people that are talking about what really is causing the climate to change, 'cause for sure it's changing all the time, but it's so complicated that we don't know exactly why. There's so many factors. So I, I think we should figure out what's actually going on. I think it's a good area to research. But this whole idea that we should focus everything on CO2 as the climate control knob and we, the fight against CO2 is completely crazy, and so much capital and so much," }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "25:29", "start": 1528.75, "text": "The idea, this incorrect idea that CO2 might kill us all, it's amazing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:33", "start": 1533.48, "text": "I wonder as well. I'm just kind of thinking out loud, but it could be that sometimes people wanna argue about things that they can easily understand, and if something's really complex, they're not as able to sort of argue about some nuanced thing because they don't know about that. And so maybe that's kind of, you know, people just wanna argue about CO2 because that has, I guess, that's been branded or it's been presented, it's been put in front of us on our TVs Is the knob, and you better argue about that." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "26:02", "start": 1561.85, "text": "Yeah, it's so interesting to me that we're told, our TV tells us that climate science is basic physics. It's so easy that the grade schoolers get it, and, you're, you're, evil if you don't go along with this basic physics. But then we, in the movie, movie, we have John Clauser, who won the twenty twenty-two Nobel Prize in Physics. So it's supposed to be basic physics, but yet this Nobel Prize winner doesn't get it. I mean, of course it's" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "26:29", "start": 1588.91, "text": "Physics. So, yeah, just every single part of this, again, every single part of the alarmist narrative, if you look at it carefully, i-it's all bogus, a hundred percent of it is. And I, I wanted to bring up this whole thing, maybe you're about Bitcoin mining causing bad weather. I was just watching some of the adopting, the, El Salvador thing, and they were talking about, about, there's kind of a, a thread going through there that Bitcoin doesn't cause a lot of bad weather. It, it emits CO2 A lot of it, there's that kinda thing. But anyway, I'd like to push back on that and say it doesn't cause any bad weather. Emitting CO2 doesn't make the weather worse at all, and arguably it makes the weather a little bit better. That, when the Earth is slightly warmer, it's been good times to, be on Earth, and if CO2 makes the, Earth a little warmer, and it for sure makes the crops grow better, makes the crops grow way better, and, we have more, global leaf Better. Additional CO2 makes it better. So the whole idea that we have to be guilty about Bitcoin mining because maybe we emit some CO2, we shouldn't be guilty at all, 'cause it doesn't, it doesn't make our lives worse, it makes our life better in so many ways." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:42", "start": 1662.19, "text": "Yeah, so I definitely, I appreciate that, Tom, and, I would put that down to even inside of Bitcoin circles, you've got more left-aligned Bitcoiners and more right-aligned Bitcoiners, right? So I'm, I'm, I'll be, you know, I'll be honest, I'm more of a right-wing libertarian, so I'm more, you know, skeptic of, the climate scam, let's say, whereas more left-aligning Bitcoiners, they sort of buy into that narrative, and so they're trying to sort of appease, you know, and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:12", "start": 1692.23, "text": "You know, the propaganda, oh, carbon is the temperature knob, therefore I wanna try to demonstrate why Bitcoin mining is sustainable in their terms. So that's, I think that's part of what's driving that. And then also, as I'm sure you're well aware, there's the whole ESG. Now, ESG has obviously, you know, taken a lot of criticism in recent years, but, you know, at least up until very recently, you needed to tick that box, and if you wanted to be able to- s-seek capital from various people, whether you were get-trying to get funding for your Bitcoin mining startup or for your, you know, var-various ventures, you sort of needed to be able to tick that box. So I think that was why the more left-aligned Bitcoiners were going down that way. Now, I personally, you know, there, there are times where I might sort of be talking to someone and say, \"Look, even on your own terms, like if you thought-- even if you, even if I granted you that CO2 was the carbon, was the You'd, you'd still, you know, it's still, even on your own terms, you should still be a fan of Bitcoin mining, but of course, my overall position is, no, I don't believe CO2 is the temperature knob personally, but, Yeah, that's just political differences in, you know, even inside the, the camp of Bitcoiners, I would say." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "29:24", "start": 1763.52, "text": "one thing that encourages me is that, if there are people that are buying into the climate crisis thing in the Bitcoin community, that they can be brought over to the other side, I think. I think people like Michael Mann, who have gone all in, he's pushed all of his chips in on it. I don't, I don't think people like that are ever going to admit that they were wrong, 'cause it's just way too painful. I think Tons of people who I know that are well known climate skeptics now, they believed it in the past. They believed it pretty seriously, possibly in the past. Anthony Watts is one. I believed it myself. I didn't climate march or anything. But when I first heard about this, I thought, \"Well, I, you know, I was a normie back then, and I thought the scientists, you know, they are, they're smart and they proved this.\" So I, I bought into it for a while. But, I'm seeing a lot of people that say Lie. You can just start, when you're talking to people, just start with a polar bear lie or whatever they bring up. You can start down, down any one little rabbit hole, you can show them whatever they told you was a complete lie, and then, I think that opens up a crack, and then they c- or, they're more sus- they, will listen to you more as you go down more rabbit holes with them. you have to just realize that they're lying to us everywhere, and you can start with just one lie and then expand it" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:41", "start": 1840.92, "text": "Yeah, I think, I think that's really true because it's like, once you realize, wait, they were lying to me about this one thing, okay, what else were they lying about? Or can I even take these people seriously, right? And I think we are, arguably, in the last year or two, I think we've seen a big social and cultural shift, right? I think we've started to see the power of the, I'm gonna call them legacy media now instead of mainstream media, I think their power is starting to wane, like the, the Joe Rogans" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:11", "start": 1870.6, "text": "Massive podcasts are able to reach a lot of people, and so it's, you know, it's, it's where people get their truth from is starting to change now, and I think now people are starting to be a little more, willing as well to challenge some of these things. I'll, I'll tell you what, like even if you rewind the clock ten years ago It was, you know, you were a massive, outcast to sort of be against, you know, the net zero and the carbon and all this stuff, right? Yeah. And nowadays, I would say, and I'm curious what you think as well, I've seen a lot more people using the term climate scammer, right? Like I've, I've been using that, but, I, I'm noticing other people are starting to use it more, right?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "31:52", "start": 1911.76, "text": "I think there was, I, I was just looking, there was an actual study from the other side about, they're clutching their pearls because so many people are using the, hashtag climate scam or using it. I love seeing that. I love seeing that. But yeah, I've been online, you know, I was on Blogspot for a while, I've been on Twitter since '08, and there was a time when I felt a little bit more alone. There are always some active skeptics, but more and more, I'm definitely seeing it, makes me" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "32:21", "start": 1941.3, "text": "And you can find, I can find all kinds of people I've never heard of before that are saying, \"This is wrong, and this is why it's wrong.\" They're not just, you know, they're not just calling names or anything. They're, they're debunking it using data and facts. There's so many people who have come up to speed on this through the alternate media. They're never gonna learn about this stuff from CNN or whatever from watching their TV. They're not gonna learn the truth about this that way. But people are learning from these podcasts, like you said Anders Owens and his mind was blown when she said she, she didn't believe in it. he was, he couldn't believe it back then, but in the, years since, he has switched over and now he's scoffing at it when it comes up. I don't know what his level of belief is, but quite commonly, I listen carefully, it'll come up and, him and his guests will kind of scoff at it. So there's been a big change there. I love it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:13", "start": 1992.74, "text": "So let's talk about the, I guess, some of the temperature record, right? Because this is gonna be a common thing people, you know, talk about. I think an interesting one I see, I saw you talk about in the, in the movie, in the documentary, was the urban heat island effect. So do you wanna just explain a little bit about the temperature record and how to think about that?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "33:35", "start": 2015.35, "text": "Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that 'cause I just had John Christie on my podcast yesterday, and he's one of the one authority on this, looking very carefully at the data, for many decades. And there's this whole issue of, well, we mentioned it in the movie, that in Paris, for example, on a warm day, it might be five degrees centigrade or more warmer in the center of town than it is on the outskirts, because there's all the warm asphalt and there's the cars putting out heat and all, there's a lot of ways that humans make About the CO2 being involved. So that is a big problem because, there's been a lot of, maybe most weather stations in the US or anywhere else, they started out in a rural area, surrounded by grass, and just very slowly over time, the, town tends to move out towards the station, and eventually there's buildings around there, and there's, there might be, airport tarmac or all kinds of ways that the temperature that you're reading is warmer than it would have been, nothing to do with CO2, it's just because It's causing, more warmth, especially at night, because if it's warmer during the day and all that, asphalt gets warm, the-- it doesn't cool down completely overnight for quite some time. So, it's a huge factor. And John Christie on my pod just yesterday argued that that's a far bigger factor than CO2 in nighttime temperatures getting warmer. It's just merely, it's not CO2, it's other factors. And, he's done a good job, John Christie's look at that. Willie Soon has looked at it very carefully. Honestly, good job on this from WhatsApp with that. He's actually had people go around to the stations and he has all these pictures of, official weather stations that are right by tarmac or they're right by a parking lot with, hot engines parked right next to it or near a Weber grill or near a, AC outlet. There's all sorts of ways that, heat are being, heat's being pumped right over the sensors. And again, you might think, \"Oh no, it's warmer now than it was a hundred years ago,\" but they're, those heat" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:34", "start": 2133.75, "text": "This show brought to you by mempool.space, the world's leading Bitcoin visualizer, and now they've got an accelerator program. So if you have a transaction that you sent at a fee that was too low to get confirmed, now you can fix this at-with the mempool accelerator. The way it works, you can go and search your transaction, scroll down, click accelerator, and you don't need an account. You can pay with Lightning, and then it'll show you it's now in the process of being accelerated, and then after a few minutes, it's confirmed. And so this is a great And this can happen where maybe your wallet doesn't have RBF or CPFP, or it might help you in situations where it's impractical to go and re-sign, so for example, multisig with keys in different locations. And thirdly, even in some lightning scenarios, perhaps a forced close, you might not be able to use RBF, and so in this case, the mempool accelerator can help you out. So keep it in mind, and you can find out more over at mempool.space/excelerator. Right, so it's like an artificial raising of the temperature. and as I recall, I mean, you, you correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I recall, part of what's driven that rise in the temperature record, or at least the, you know, the fake temperature record, let's call it, is that the, the lows have been raised, right? That, that the, y-you know, it's like the-- Because the lower temperatures have been raised, that's raised the average." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "36:54", "start": 2214.22, "text": "Yeah, yeah, that's a big part of it. And About forty degrees centigrade being hit in the UK, there was a lot of publicity about, \"Oh no, it hit forty degrees, humans caused it because of CO2.\" But Chris Morrison checked into it, doing some great journalism. He found out that that forty degree record was, near an active, airport landing strip, and, jets were landing there right at that time, and it only lasted for one minute. The temperature went up by point six, I think, and down by point six within a minute. It was just like a breath of warm air went over" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "37:29", "start": 2248.7, "text": "Nothing to do with CO2. It, and it also has something to do with the temperature sensors we're using now. I had someone else on my podcast, it may have been Anthony Watts, talking about how we used to have more simple thermometers, and back in the day, if, a warm blast of, wind went over a thermometer, it wouldn't even get captured. But right now, we have very sensitive instruments, and if there's a spike, it can capture that spike. So again, we can freak out about, things that have nothing to Changes anyway is, it doesn't make sense at all, of course. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:03", "start": 2282.71, "text": "And as I understand, there's also been people trying to, let's say, confirm it through other means, right? Like, yeah, rural data, balloons and satellite data and things like that. Can you comment a bit on that?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "38:13", "start": 2293.4, "text": "Yeah. Again, John Christie from my pod yesterday, he is in charge of the UAH satellite dataset, and I think that is our single best dataset because they're using satellites and it's not affected by the Weber grills and the tarmac and all this other stuff. And his, data shows way less warming than, than this other d-land data that's contaminated by the urban heat island effect. And, but that, dataset starts in the 1970s, and, it was cold in the 1970s. Because I think globally, and then for whatever reason, it, cooled for decades, and there was actually a-- there was a global cooling scare where Leonard Nimoy was talking about it, and you may have seen that on, in search of that, what are we gonna do if it keeps cooling like this? it's gonna be a-- it's gonna have a terrible effect on our crops, et cetera. So anyway, it, it did cool quite a bit, during that, three decade period. I forget where I was going with this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:08", "start": 2347.62, "text": "Where was I going" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "39:13", "start": 2352.96, "text": "The satellite data is the best data, but there are all sorts of other type of records too, going back about-- we can just look at where the tree lines were, actually. That's another big thing that we should be looking at. we can tell that the tree line just four thousand years ago was quite a bit further north in the northern hemisphere than it is now. So there, there's a lot of evidence that just, in the last few thousand years, it's been quite a bit warmer, globally than it is right now. In the Medieval Warm Period, there That was maybe, a thousand years ago or so. It was warmer then, and we're being told that CO2 was kind of stable all this time. So there's a lot of different ways to try to figure out how warm it was in the past, and none of them support the idea that, CO2 is the reason for these fluctuations. The climate keeps changing on all different timescales. some warmists think it's just on Milankovic scales, and that maybe for a hundred thousand year periods it just goes up very slowly and down very slowly, and that's it. And sometimes, there's different cycles. Sometimes the cycles line up and then it gets really warm if they all line up in the correct way. Sometimes they line up the other way and it gets really cold. It's incredibly complicated. We didn't-- the, we can't predict exactly what's-- we for sure can't predict what's going to happen next, 'cause these cycles aren't perfect cycles. But the whole idea that we should expect the climate to just stay the same and if it changes, we caused it, that basic assumption is a complete crock, and we gotta get rid of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:38", "start": 2438.04, "text": "that It almost seems like as soon as there's anything that happens, the climate scammers, they just latch onto that and say, \"Oh, see? It's 'cause of climate, it's 'cause of climate change, it's CO2. See, it's proof that we're right.\" What's the truth there?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "40:57", "start": 2457.31, "text": "Yeah, I see that all the time, and the truth is that the weather, there's been bad weather in every single year of human history as far as we know, a lot of it. So the whole idea that bad weather is evidence that CO2 causes bad weather, we see that all the time. Look at how bad this flood was, or look, this storm was really bad. but that doesn't prove anything. And the best person to follow to learn about this is Tony Heller or Tony Climate. He is fantastic. Looking at, because if you look at old newspapers, if you Kinds of records. You can constantly see people complaining about their mind is blown at how bad the weather just was. So if you look carefully at the data, and I've looked at it, every which way for years, there's no signal at all if the weather's getting worse. And again, it looks like the weather might be getting slightly better. There's this whole idea that, the warmth we've seen right now is making, a slight, lesser difference between the equator and the poles. So since there's less of a temperature difference there, there On that, but if you, if it's, if there's big differences in temperatures and those, there's a clash between temperatures that can cause storms, and the less difference you get, the, possibly the less, severe the, the storms are. But the bottom line is, there, there's nothing. You can look anywhere, anywhere you want, there's no evidence that CO2 is, is making the weather worse. It's just, the CO2, the weather isn't even getting worse. We're not even to the point where," }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "42:27", "start": 2546.99, "text": "It's, it's that the weather isn't getting worse, so we don't have to worry about the cause. The weather isn't getting worse for sure, and the IPCC agrees with that. Yeah, yeah. They talk about flooding, and they say in the IPCC that we don't even know the sign of any global change in flooding. They don't even-- They say, \"Well, we don't know if it's getting more," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:48", "start": 2568.33, "text": "more or less. We don't know the sign of it.\" So, again, nothing to worry about. So, yeah, so I guess you Variability and they, they-- because they, by instantly latching onto something and saying, \"Oh, it's because of climate,\" they're not understanding that actually it could have been explained by natural variability. That's kind of the short answer, right? Yeah. Yeah. And there's" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "43:09", "start": 2588.9, "text": "supposed to be this whole idea that the climate scientists today are so smart that they understand natural vari-- variability, and they're modeling that, and they've thrown that part out, and then they know that what's left over is caused by humans. But that part is wrong too. We a hundred percent don't know how" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "43:27", "start": 2606.99, "text": "Nobody knows what it's gonna do in the next twenty years. We can guess and, constant surprises 'cause it's so complicated. As I say, it's hard to model even a roulette wheel about where that ball's gonna go, you figure out ahead of time and figure out where that's gonna go. modeling Earth's climate is this many orders of magnitude harder than that. And even if we knew about all the factors, what they do, and how they interact, we don't even know the initial states of all those factors like right now, we can't set up our climate The right way. It's so complicated, and we're still using Fortran, I, I, I think, for these climate models, they're, they're Fortran models. The whole idea we're gonna base our civilization on those being right is like basing our civilization on the COVID models being right, and they were, of course, they were wildly wrong too. It's right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:13", "start": 2653.46, "text": "Yeah. When it comes to the whole propaganda, and I'm sure there's been, you know, volleys back and forth, so I'm sure after your movie came out, I'm sure the various, you know, propaganda pieces came back at you. What was, what were they saying? Like, you know, whether it's, I don't know, London School of Economics or whoever else, like, what were they, what were they saying? And, you know, what was the response like there? Yeah," }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "44:38", "start": 2678.06, "text": "I have it up here. There's, we are, our movie's Check done by a writer and visual designer, editor Derek Burns, based on that guy. So we have Will Happer, we have all these, people that have looked at climate that are incredibly smart and decorated, but Derek Burns says it's, not correct, so therefore it's misinformation. But, yeah, it's just kind of a standard thing that these, attempts at debunking us are, say we're wrong because we don't agree with what the TV told them. That, that's basically it. They, they don't go into detail and, say We know CO2 is the climate control knob. Here's how we know that the weather's getting worse, blah, blah, blah. they never do that. There's no, scientific papers that prove any of this stuff. Constantly when I'm arguing with warmists, I'm asking, okay, so which paper should prove, should, has the evidence that should prove to a rational person that CO2 is the climate control knob? Or which paper should prove that the weather's getting worse, blah, blah, blah? There's no papers that prove any of this stuff It's amazing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:41", "start": 2741.3, "text": "So, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on any, debates, whether you've done them or any recent debates that have taken place. Do you have any hope that debates are gonna help here, or is it just more like public opinion has to shift in some other way?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "45:57", "start": 2757.0, "text": "No, there has been some debate. There was one real debate, I think it was about two thousand and seven. There was an Intelligence Squared debate. That was a real debate that had three people on our side and three on their side, and the skeptics won that one. It was a high profile, very well done debate, and I think that kind of scared off the, people on the alarmist side. there's, tons of cases of them agreeing to do a debate and then backing out at the last minute. But yeah, I think we should-- I would love" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "46:26", "start": 2786.48, "text": "Debates, and, and I think, we win every time because the truth is on our side. There's been some minor debates, I've done a couple small ones on my, on my podcast, and Tony Heller's been involved in some. I think, I think, Steve Koonan did one against Andrew Desler maybe about net zero. There's been a few minor debates, but, not, not major ones. I'd love, like to see them on, on, on actual CNN or on, TV that the normies are" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "46:56", "start": 2816.32, "text": "Stuck debate because, they're not confident that they can win them. They, they can't win them. actually, Dave Kallum just did a debate, against, Stephen Keen on Zero Hedge. okay. That's one, right? It's about a fifty-four minute debate. Yeah, that was on, that just came out on Sunday, I think. That was a pretty good one, but, pre-uh, pretty short. And, but Stephen Keen is talking about how crazy stuff like he, doesn't think that" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "47:27", "start": 2847.04, "text": "Yeah, again, that's a guy going all in on the models. 'Cause if you're walking around outside and looking at the, the birds are singing, blah, blah, blah, the whole idea that CO2 is gonna kill us all by 2050, there's no freaking way that can happen. If you talk to anybody who works outside, for example, who has some connection to the real world, ask them, \"Do you think we're all gonna be dead by 2050 because of carbon dioxide?\" I mean, if you have any connection to reality, you're not Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:55", "start": 2874.67, "text": "Okay. So look, let's talk a little bit. Now you mentioned, these cops as like an annual conference. I know that's kind of one of the, the meccas of this kind of thing. But," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:06", "start": 2886.28, "text": "not to, yeah, but, to talk about the- Different, what are the main, conferences or kind of ways that these kinds of things are being discussed, and are you seeing like a waning interest in them or a growing interest in them?" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "48:23", "start": 2902.7, "text": "You know, I'm seeing hopeful signs of waning interest. I, I forget the exact, the names, but I think B- Biden's not going and, I think the, the Macron's not going and Argentina pulled out. And just, from the outside, I'm seeing way less publicity. I'm old enough, old enough to remember that on Twitter, this was a big deal. I remember, when, during the peak of, Al Gore's popularity about climate, right after his movie, he was treated like a rock star. They kept saying, \"Rock Is, is way down. I, I'm hearing almost nothing about it, and I'm even hearing some people say maybe they're gonna end. I don't know why they wouldn't end. But I think they have had tens of thousands of people still flying in. To go this, to this most recent one, I think you can't even get there overland, so it's incredibly ironic that all these people that are fighting hydrocarbons have to fly far away to Azerbaijan to go to this thing. So, yeah, I think there's less interest. I'm hopeful that they are gonna completely" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "49:22", "start": 2962.24, "text": "Have, their professional life is on the line here. This is their thing that they do, and, they've spent their life talking at parties about how Trump is crazy for not believing in it. So I, I think it's very hard for them to back away and say, \"This is all a crock, I gotta get a real job now.\" I, I don't know how that's gonna play out for them, but we'll see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:40", "start": 2980.16, "text": "Yeah, it might, it might end up being similar to how, as an example, in the US, I, I see the sense is of, that the Democrats are kind of stepping a bit back from all the trans stuff, as an example, because they're sort of seeing how out there it was that like the, the average everyday American just didn't wanna go with that, and, you know, so I think that, that might also, play against them there. on the subsidies point, so I think this is another big kind of back and forth point. Now And watching some of these debates as well, where people would sort of argue about how much subsidy wind and solar was getting, and then the response back would be like, \"Oh no, see, fossil fuels is getting all the subsidy,\" but then you'd dig into it and then it would be like, \"Nah, actually, they're miscounting like a tax rebate that would be available anyway as a subsidy, whereas like the wind and solar thing is actually a subsidy.\" But, I'm curious, where do you see it in terms of government subsidies for the different forms of energy that" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "50:41", "start": 3040.82, "text": "I think what I saw is what you saw. I think that they were saying, \"Oh, Chevron's getting these massive subsidies,\" but they were just calling, just standard accounting. They were saying that's a subsidy, they were depreciating their assets or whatever, they're calling that a, a subsidy, but it's accounting that was available again to every other form of company, fossil fuel or not. So yeah, I, I've, I've seen other estimates that, fossil or fossil energy is underfunded by, undersubsidized by a factor of a hundred or something compared there's, in my home state here of Minnesota, there's all kinds of subsidies for this crazy green energy. They're, putting up solar panels here way north of the forty-fifth parallel, and they're sitting there covered by snow, and the only reason that they're being put up is to, farm the subsidies. It's not because the energy payback makes any sense at all. In fact, I had a guy on my podcast, Douglas Pollock, who said that in general, I think above the thirtieth parallel, it doesn't make sense to put up" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "51:40", "start": 3099.82, "text": "Energy than you spent in putting into it and, manufacturing it and doing all the mining and ever, whatever. So yeah, subsidies, have done just a lot of, evil in terms of misallocation of capital. So I think we should just, of course, we should take 'em all off and just let these, energy sources compete on their own merits. The whole idea that we have to do, subsidize these crazy energy, forms because we have to save human civilization, we gotta get rid of that. And, I'm hopeful There was this whole idea under the Biden administration that we're gonna kind of make climate change kind of the centerpiece of all the departments. They're gonna kind of have a cl-climate focus everywhere. I think we're seeing the other thing now, that as the new, all these new nominees are coming out, I'm going to their Twitter feeds and saying, \"What are they looking at? What did they say about climate?\" And over and over, I'm seeing stuff that makes me happy about, they're saying that we're not believing in this, maybe it's a scam. There's tons of unbelievers" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "52:40", "start": 3159.84, "text": "Happy, real happy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:42", "start": 3162.38, "text": "Yeah, so I think ultimately it is, the, the tide is turning, I think. That's my perception of where things are going at kind of the public debate, and, you know, I think it was sort of like after, you know, a f- a few people have to kind of go out and take the slings and arrows, and maybe you, you, you may, you may, you probably were one of those guys taking the slings and arrows at the start, but, now it's sort of clearing the pathway for Yeah, actually, this kinda doesn't make sense to me. Let's just, let's just do the, you know, efficient thing instead of the, you know, re-quote unquote, renewable, thing. So I think there's gonna end up-- I do think there's a huge--" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "53:23", "start": 3202.57, "text": "I'm sorry, I think there's a huge snowball effect that as people step forward and then the more and more people are encouraged to say, \"Well, he, he or she said it, so it's okay for me to speak out, too.\" I think we're actually seeing more and more The main case study was Martin Durkan, who I consider a friend now. I, I worked with him on this movie. He, came out with a great global warming swindle, and, he got so much pushback back then, and he was ready for that same amount of pushback this time with this, this movie, but, it didn't really show up. That the mainstream media never did attack the movie, and I don't know if they wanted to, maybe to ignore us and we would go away, but we were all braced for way more push" }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "54:10", "start": 3249.88, "text": "Than it was fifteen, sixteen years ago." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:12", "start": 3252.14, "text": "Yeah, maybe that's almost a sign of, you know, their kind of disinterest now is almost a, an indication that, oh, this isn't acceptable viewpoint now, you know, whereas fifteen years ago it was not an acceptable viewpoint." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "54:23", "start": 3263.19, "text": "Yeah, that, that could well be. Yeah, I, I'm encouraged. I think, I almost never hear people, I don't know if you do, in real life as you're walking around, talking to people at parties and stuff, it almost never comes up. I usually don't bring" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:41", "start": 3280.76, "text": "Yeah, I'll tell you what, so I would say not in my direct friend circles, but let's say my one degree of separation, I've had friends who tell me they have friends who are still kind of, let's say, climate leftist type believers, and so, you know, I think it just really depends who, what circles you run in. Like, obviously, maybe guys like you and I, the circles that we run in, maybe we're just less likely to run into those people nowadays. But, Do you think," }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "55:09", "start": 3308.9, "text": "that people are- Are they not having kids because they think, the, you know, the world's gonna end by twenty fifty? I don't wanna bring my kid into this world. Or are they just not wanna-- they don't wanna have kids anyway, and they're just using it as an excuse? I think" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:20", "start": 3319.61, "text": "it's, I think it's just kind of like a thing people say, and really the factors are, are the, you know, economic, social, cultural factors that are lowering fertility rates. so we'll see what happens there. I, I per-- actually, on the kind of Bitcoin I think we're gonna return, we're gonna turn that around, we're gonna bring fertility back because we're gonna start fixing, you know, to kind of, I see it in a kind of, there, there are these social and cultural problems of today that we need to sort of, we need to fix those. but, yeah, I guess I haven't asked you about Bitcoin. Are you, a Bitcoin guy as well? You see any potential there? Are you a hodler? I am a Bitcoin guy." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "56:01", "start": 3361.09, "text": "Yeah, I absolutely am. Yeah. I don't know if you heard my origin story, but as a climate skeptic, I got invited to be on SafeDeen's podcast and Marty Ben's podcast a couple years ago, yeah. And that, yeah, that is what kicked it off, and I, listened to SafeDeen's book, and I started, listening to tons of podcasts, and I've been to a couple conferences now, so I'm kind of, I'm pretty orange pilled. I'm, I'm" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:26", "start": 3386.32, "text": "very orange kind of challenging angle as well, because, you know, there's kind of that angle of like, would your money be controlled and would they stop you buying a certain amount of meat or whatever, or, or flying, or using your money to fly on a plane, whereas obviously, if you, you know, if we can sort of get people to use Bitcoin, then there's more of a sense of, you can, you can do what you want, it's your money. So hopefully, that's the optimistic vision of the future, we'll see what exactly it turns out there. TheMovie Dot Net. All the links will be in the show notes, and you can follow Tom on X Dot Com. The handle is Tom A Nelson. So Tom, thanks for joining me today." }, { "speaker": "tom_nelson", "time": "57:09", "start": 3428.98, "text": "thank you. I really enjoyed talking to you, Stefan. Appreciate it." } ] }