{ "episodeId": "SLP622", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "michael_bumann": { "name": "Michael Bumann", "role": "guest", "tag": "MICHAEL" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:11", "start": 11.15, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Bold. For American listeners, go to getbold.io to stack zaps, and Bold also has a two of three vault where you can hold two keys. Now, onto the show today, we're gonna be chatting about Alby and Bitcoin and Lightning and all these things with Bumi. Bumi is working on the Alby Alby project, and I think you might have been working on a few other things, in and around the Bitcoin world as well, right? but welcome to the show, Alby. Thank you very much. Excited to be here. Yeah. Great. So, yeah, let's, let's chat about what you're working on and what's the latest with Alby. I know there's been some updates there, Alby Hub, and a few things we'll get into. I guess, my first experience-- and listeners, you can check out my earlier episode with Moritz, where we spoke about, you know, Alby, but that was, you know, maybe a year or two ago. I have used Alby, I, I do use it, myself just as an extension" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "01:11", "start": 70.74, "text": "Well, yeah, yeah, a lot of things have been happening. I mean, generally, like in the, in the whole ecosystem, in the whole space, right? So, especially since this last chat, so it's always exciting to be involved there and see like all these developments. And, yeah, I'm, I'm one of the co-founders. I was writing actually one of the first lines of code of, of Alby, what, what, or what became Alby. that was the Alby browser extension. I think it's actually now three years ago, or three years, yeah, yeah, something like that would need to count. the first lines of code, were written at, one of the fullmo hack days, lightning hack days, during Christmas back, back then. And, yeah, generally we are working on the question or the idea how we can use, Bitcoin as open source money to power like digital economies, like we- We believe that, Lightning and Bitcoin in general is, is used as the, yeah, the native, asset, to transact digitally, and we have to see what we can do with that, right? So that's the exciting part because now we have this, yeah, always call it programmable money, right? But we have to see, okay, what does it actually mean? How can we do that? what does it change? What kind of new use cases are possible? And, yeah, so this is, Yeah, and I guess just an" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:41", "start": 160.99, "text": "overview from my perspective, you know, in the early days, it was basically a browser extension that allowed you to either connect your Lightning node, or back then I think you had a custodial Lightning thing, which now that's gone, but, the idea is that you could use it to- Do Lightning payments in a very seamless way on the internet, you know, sending and receiving, and the idea is that the extension could sort of pick up things from the page, and that would make it easier. So as an example, people could put like their Lightning symbol and the Lightning address, and then it would read that, and then you could tip them, or it would sort of, if you're on a page that's Lightning supported, it would sort of pick that up and be, be like, \"Hey, do you wanna pay this invoice in Lightning?\" And that kind, that kind of but I guess that was the extension. Do you want to now talk a little bit about, you know, just give us an overview what, what's the suite looking now? Because I know you've got Alby Go and Alby Hub." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "03:37", "start": 216.87, "text": "Yeah, I mean, maybe to the extension because that explains it also, quite nicely. the idea with the extension, was to allow anything that runs in the browser, like any web application, to interact with the Lightning Network. So, and to make that possible, we needed to teach- Lightning to the browser itself, right? So that means that, web applications, then as you said, can have certain simple JavaScript APIs, can have certain simple interactions, that, then use the user's wallet, right? And, yeah, back then I often explained it in a way that, you come to a website and as, for example, the website requests access to your microphone Request access to your camera, and, if you do a video call, then it can also access," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "04:35", "start": 274.69, "text": "it can request access to your, to your wallet to do a certain payment. And, if we have these kinda interactive ways, these, these programmable ways, we can like, make much nicer user experiences, right? And, yeah, so this was the general, the general, concept or the general thought Where we were coming from, the browser extension was then kind of the bridge between the browser and the user's wallet, or the user's node. So you could connect an LND node, to make it simple, we also then allowed users to, to get an account, to set this up and, And, yeah, I mean, the browser extension is actually still one of our ma-major, projects or major, products that we're working on. Yeah, and we should also mention there's the Nostra" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:28", "start": 327.63, "text": "part of it also, right? Because that's another way that you can kind of shield your-- Because, okay, so the thing for people who are using, who don't know what Nostra is, it's like a notes and other stuff transmitted by relays. It's kind, kind of like the first app of that is kind of like a decentralized Twitter or X," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:46", "start": 346.4, "text": "I found useful about Nostra is it allows you to sort of shield your nsec, which is like your Nostra private key, from the apps you're, you're sort of interacting with, or without kind of putting it, having to copy-paste it. That's kind of the easy aspect of it. That's something I found easy to use with Alby. So, do you wanna just explain a bit about Alby and the Nostra connection?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "06:09", "start": 368.83, "text": "Yeah, yeah. The thought there is actually quite similar, with, with Nostra, you have, yeah, your identity It's represented with keys, and you have this private key, similar to, that you have in the Bitcoin space that holds your money, in the Nostr case, you have the private key, that is then used to, yeah, sign events, sign messages that you publish in the Nostr, ecosystem. And, so just similar to your Lightning wallet that you have in, in the extension, you then also have the Nostr key in the extension. And, yeah, you can like really imagine it as your Your, your wallet, that you have, like your physical wallet, right? You have money in there, but you also have like an ID card in there, and that's kind of the digital, the, like we are doing that in the digital world here. And then I can go to a Nostro client, like Primal or Snort or Iris or many of them, I can go to those, and I can come already with my identity, I can bring my identity w-w-with it, because I own the identity, I own the keys, right? That's In part to what we actually have in, if you use X or Facebook or one of these tools, where you can just log in and the identity is actually owned by these platforms. So it's like I'm more self-sovereign there. And, yeah, I can do that with the extension. The extension holds the keys, I can go there, I can allow, one of these clients to, yeah, request permissions to do a signature, and then I can also use the extension to pay on these sites and, the exciting part in the Nosto space actually, and this is also a very good example, is the Sappin." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "07:58", "start": 477.56, "text": "which, you can say it kind of replaces a bit the like button, but it's a much more stronger, signal, if it's, it's not just a stupid like button or like a like button that has no, no value, but I actually put some sats behind it. So if I, if it's a valuable post for me, if I like the post, then I click, zap and I send a thousand sats over to, to the publisher, for example. These kind of things Or certainly becoming possible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:29", "start": 508.7, "text": "Right. And yeah, just as an example, you might be scrolling on Primal, on the webpage, and you might have connected your Alby browser extension to Primal on the web app, and then when you're zapping, it's kind of now connecting up your own Lightning node, so if you wanna do it with your own Lightning node, that's another way to do that, so different ways it works there, and you can configure different aspects of that. And then, yeah, the other aspect of it is In the early days of Nostra, I remember people just had to copy paste their xPub into clients, right? So it was just sort of like, there's like some new client and people were having to just trust You know, the code, I mean, unless they're reading the code of it all, and there's just a lot of trust involved with that, whereas if you're using Alby browser extension, it's sort of like a middle layer there that kind of helps you a little bit, at least not having to copy-paste the end sec all the time. And I guess, as I understand, those apps are requesting permission out of the Nostra app, so yes, you're putting-- sorry, out of the Alby app. So in that sense, you're, yes, you're putting Or whatever, but then at least you're not having to trust every individual nostra app that you interact with." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "09:42", "start": 582.48, "text": "Yeah. You're kind of, disconnecting, the application from, the keys that represent your identity that, that you are actually owning. So, and if you put the keys into every single application, that would be if you give, a merchant your private key to your Bitcoin wallet just to get some money out of, out of that. So that's kind of not how it works, right? That would be crazy, right? That would be Crazy. You just want to, yeah. You want to sign a message using the private key," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:14", "start": 614.3, "text": "as opposed to giving them the private key. And the idea with the cryptography of Bitcoin and with Nostra, the idea is you're signing the message, and that is sort of proof in the system that, yes, Bumi really does hold this private key for these coins, or in this case, Bumi does really hold the private key for this Nostra identity, and I've accepted that this identity made this post or that kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "10:36", "start": 635.97, "text": "Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And that's the powerful thing because I can really keep that. I have this in, like, the browser extension, for example, which is like, a client-side application. It really only run-- runs on the user's computer. a-and I can take that and go to different clients. So I'm not dependent on only one client, but I can take the same, like, key and the same identity and same profile, to different clients, and I have exactly the same social graph, the same people that I'm following, the same profile that is out there, Yeah, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:09", "start": 669.11, "text": "one other point, just while we're on it, on the extension and browsers, obvi- the obvious question a lot of people might have is, oh, hang on, aren't browser extensions like insecure? Like, is that really the best way to store private keys, or nsec in this case, which is your nostr privacy, or even if it's connected to your light-- to your lightning node, it kind of has access to, you know, at least some of your money, even if you keep most of it in your hardware wallet or your multisig" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "11:38", "start": 698.01, "text": "I mean, ultimately it builds on the security model of the browser, and browsers are these, like, you know, like these, yeah, have been around forever, They, they, you know, like Google Chrome, Mozilla, they provide these APIs that extensions can use and can build on top of it, so it ultimately relies on the trust of those browsers and I, you are already Trusting that in a sense because you use it to access the websites and so on. So browsers are really good at that. So browsers are really good at also like, having like, Yeah, separations and, making sure that, also extensions or websites can only access what they're allowed to access. So that's, that's actually pretty good. Of course, It's nothing for you don't hold your life savings in there, right? So this, this is what it's your daily use, like in terms of money, that's also the, the Lightning case, it's like more of your, your daily spending wallet that you use there, and also with the Nostik, is your daily using it, you're actively using it, you're making many, many signatures, like, When you're like, using one of these applications, so it's for sure hot just because it's on the computer," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "13:03", "start": 782.88, "text": "but yeah, as I said, it relies on these like security models of these big, it's like nothing that we actually implemented, it relies on the security models of these big browser vendors." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:13", "start": 793.01, "text": "Right. Yeah. And I mean, I guess even a few years ago there were, you know, a lot of these zero days, and probably even today, there's still a lot of these zero days that come out for Chrome or Firefox So these big browsers, so I mean, that is always a risk, but I guess you, you also have to trade off of, you know, imagine if you have to, if you had to like get your, get your hardware wallet out every time you wanted to do a Nostra post or a Nostra zap, it, it would just be impractical, right? So you sort of have to Find the balance of security versus convenience, and that's where, you know, yeah, as you said, you know, listeners, make sure you're not keeping like large amounts on these things. Like, this is larger amounts are for your hardware wallets and your multisig and that kind of thing, and this is for your smaller, let's say, spending balance, that kind of thing. Exactly. Exactly. It's always a, a trade-off," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "14:01", "start": 841.12, "text": "right? So I mean, that's, it's, it's pretty good, but obviously don't put your life savings in there, right? So and Pretty good, but, like, it's, it's not, yeah, it's not your life savings, right? So that's kind of the, the- Yeah. Okay, cool." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:19", "start": 858.75, "text": "So, yeah, so we've spoken about that, and I think, you know, listeners make your own decisions there. so, yeah, we've spoken a bit about the extension. Let's talk about, Alby Hub and Alby Go and some of these things. Maybe Alby Hub would be a good place to start. So, can you explain what" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "14:33", "start": 873.12, "text": "is, what Lightning wallet, and, that is built for humans and machines, I would say. So and it's built around the question how a wallet, should look like, yeah, for real programmable money, for real programmable open source money. And, you know, as I said before, our goal is, to integrate Bitcoin deep into any of these, any applications out there, right? So that actually the, the payment- It becomes often a side effect of, a use case that you're doing. So for example, the sipping we mentioned or listening to a song, you know, in the background, you're streaming sats to, to the artist. The podcasting space is quite similar, right? I'm listening to the podcast, and while I'm listening to the podcast, I'm streaming sats to the, to the podcaster. So these kind of things we wanna make possible. And, yeah, so our light-- like the Alby Hub Lightning wallet is built around the NWC protocol, you probably can also talk a little bit about that. Oh, yeah, we should get into that as well. We should" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:45", "start": 945.17, "text": "explain that. But go on." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "15:47", "start": 946.57, "text": "so it's, build around that protocol which allows applications, to talk to the wallet again. So quite similar to what we do with the extension, you know, websites can talk to the extension. and here the idea is, okay, how can we allow generally any application out there to interact with the wallet, in a way also that the user doesn't have Have to actively, you know, do it, for example, with scanning your QR code or, something like that. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:15", "start": 974.79, "text": "Okay. So, so with Alby Hub, can you just explain a bit on the, yeah, the self custody part, like where are the private keys for this, who's running the lightning node underlying this, and what about the LSP, can you explain a bit the, of those elements?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "16:29", "start": 988.92, "text": "So, very important, it's, self-custodial, so the user owns, the keys." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "16:38", "start": 997.74, "text": "it's built on LDK. Yeah, or it has this embedded. It actually has two ways to run it, but the, the main one is using the embedded LDK node, which we built on top of it. So, shout out to the LDK team, you know, it wouldn't be possible without them. so that's huge. and, yeah, LDK is this full like Lightning implementation That we're using, so it's a full lightning node. the user, owns the keys, the user has the keys, wherever the user run it. What is important for us, or what we con- what we build AlbyHub around is that the user can run it anywhere, but we, For many of the things, that are required, or that we want to enable, an always on lightning node is, is required. So it's actually a bit different to the typical mobile application where you just like, you know, open the app and then the lightning node is, is started. our idea also to make a lot of things more easy is that the node isn't always on node, So it, it, it runs always, like similar to LND, right? It always runs. But anyway, the too much detail maybe there now. But the important part is, the user can run it anywhere. That means it, they can run it on a desktop computer, they can run it, on a Raspberry Pi, on a home server like, Raspiblitz or Umbrel, or it can also run in the cloud and, you know, for example, on a, virtual small virtual private server, it really has Like limited, resource requirements and to make it easy, we also provide, if people want, cloud hosting. So that's kind of, we have an ID cloud where we deploy one of these, nodes for the, for the user, The, it's fully encrypted and everything, and the user has to unlock it. I don't know if you wanna go into the detail of the security model there, but, yeah, it's kind of like, a small virtual server that we provide to the users to make it easy for them to run, to run the Alby app" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:53", "start": 1133.41, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by CoinKites dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. 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There are also Also offering zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys and twenty five dollars of free Bitcoin when you buy a hundred dollars of Bitcoin or more. Try Bold today and upgrade your stacking experience over at getbold dot io. And now back to the show. Interesting. So I guess as you've explained it, there are multiple options. You can run it on the typical Armroll and Raspiblitz and those node in a box packages, but you can also have it in the cloud. And as I'm understanding you Alby Cloud is, is that similar to Light or a competitor to, like Greenlight as an example?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "21:31", "start": 1290.67, "text": "not directly, you could more likely probably compare it to what Voltage, Voltage was doing. so Voltage was allowing you to deploy LND nodes, in, in the, in the cloud. it's a bit similar to Greenlight in the sense, that, Greenlight also runs nodes, but there, there is even more separation in there. And in Greenlight, you just have like, the, like the, the node and the keys are more separated, and we have like still this kind of, like combined application, that is running in the, in the client. The keys are only held in memory and so on. So this is kind of, the model similar to what, yeah, what LND is doing." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:15", "start": 1334.76, "text": "Right, I see. And so then- This part can't just be like in the, it's not just in the browser extension as an example, right? Like this is a separate thing to the Alby browser extension. But I guess can you use Alby Hub through the-- I presume you can, right? Through the browser extension? Right. So they're kind of, they-- I guess they're, they are conceptually separate, but they can be used together. But in the case of Alby Hub, you need an always online- Server running, that could be your own home server or that could be a cloud server, but that's kind of bottom line, and it's basically running l-LDK, to be your lightning node. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "22:57", "start": 1377.47, "text": "yeah. And if the thing is, for example, because in lightning you still require channels, right? Yeah. You still, require, channels to be connected to the network. You need the incoming and outgoing capacity, and- Our, goal there is or our concept is there that the user has one of those, right? You have like one node, you have like one where you manage the channels, and then you have certain other applications that are interacting with this node, as opposed to if you would have different wallets and different applications, and in each of them you would need to open a channel again, you would need to have money again, you know, imagine for example, you have the mobile application that needs channels, you have the... Also extension that needs channels, the podcast application that needs channels, yeah. Exactly. A lot of duplication and especially channels also come with a cost, so it would be much, way too, too expensive also, and that's why our concept is like, okay, you have like this one hub where you set it up once, you connect it, to the network, you, you get the channels, and then you can interact with it from the different, like applications that you want to use. And the application, then for example, is the browser extension, the application is also mobile, application, what we have with Go now, for example, or it can be also then, you know, a Noster client, a Podcast client, or anything else, this is what Noster Wallet connects together with, with your own AlbyHub." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:34", "start": 1474.01, "text": "So each user will have their own, the idea is they have their own AlbyHub node, and then can you explain a bit on the LSP side, like who is the LSP? Do they manually set Manage channels or is that kind of automatically done with like on-the-fly channels and this kind of thing?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "24:49", "start": 1489.44, "text": "Yeah. so LSPs is also something that, you know, has not been around like a year ago in that, extent that we have it today. and, yeah, LSPs are the service providers that provide, these channels that provide users with liquidity. and there are a bunch of them that are in- Now running really, really well, really well maintained, and what we try to do with, Alby Hub is also provide users with like easy defaults. So for example, one of the biggest issues of running a node was always you started it and then you need to get a channel, but the question is like, what is a good channel peer? Where, who, where do I connect to? Who do I open a channel with? So, and even if I got this, the second question is, where do I get incoming capacity from that I can re- Receive, payments. And, yeah, LSPs basically answered this question, and we focus very much on default user experiences, on default UI flows, where we-- to, to give the user, yeah, to make it easy for the user to have a default, right? So that means like if you open, if you set up AlbyHub, the first thing is that it says, \"Hey, great, okay, you're, you're, you're, you're set up, and now we open a...\" So and you get a channel then, from, one of the LSPs, that we've integrated, I think we got four, five LSPs integrated," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "26:29", "start": 1589.11, "text": "that's kind of megalith, Alan, Server, Olympus, for example, and, the user gets a default, channel, I think of, one million satoshis, and with that, the user can immediately start receiving, lightning payments. Users can still have advanced sections where can-- they can still open manual channels with other peers if they want, want, but this is kind of the, the default, The default flow, yeah, part or part of the setup. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:02", "start": 1621.54, "text": "And then can you explain the fees? And I guess there are fees at different levels, right? Because there might be the fee of if you're using Alby Cloud versus not, and then the, I guess each LSP would charge their own fees as well, right? So could you just explain roughly?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "27:17", "start": 1636.8, "text": "So what we don't do is, is, just in time channels. What you hinted before, so we don't do that, our concept right now also for simplicity reasons. Also for the user simplicity is you set it up once and you get a long running channel that is big enough that you don't actually have to, you know, rebalance it anymore or, do a lot of channel management, right? So because like this is a really good default and for most of the users that do send and receive, this is a, a really good, setup. But yes, these channels come with a cost, that is, yeah, the cost that the LSP is charging. For providing you the channel, for providing the liquidity, AlbyHub is directly integrated with these LSPs, so this is like, yeah, like transparently, yeah, coming directly from them. So there is a cost involved, involved if people want to, want to do that, you know, as that they can still use it. If they want to open a channels on their own, that's, that's for sure possible, but with the LSPs, LSP charge users to open a channel and give, incoming" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:31", "start": 1710.97, "text": "liquidity. Yeah, I see. and then so the actual fee, I can see just checking the site, Alby Cloud, so that's kind of the fee on your side, twenty-one thousand sats, or fifty percent off for three months, ten thousand five hundred sats. So what is that? my math, is horrible, I'm not gonna try. But, let's just- Let's" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "28:50", "start": 1729.55, "text": "just- Let, let me add to your direct, directly something. Because that's, that's a good thing. So right, yeah. So Alby Cloud, we pro- we, we charge for hosting. And, it's an interesting topic, because we thought, okay, like first of all, the- We charge using NWC itself, right? The subscription, it's a subscription payment that will automatically using NWC and the wallet will pay for itself ultimately, kind of. So, and we thought, okay, we are Bitcoin company, let's put a Bitcoin price tag to it. and we put the twenty-one thousand sets to it, which was a bit more than ten dollars, or roughly this, ten dollars at the time being, I think. and, and in the recent- Two weeks, we actually got a lot of criticism, because the price of Bitcoin went up quite fast and we couldn't adjust yet our prices to the increased purchasing power of Bitcoin, right? so this is actually something that we are changing so that we denominate, our prices in, in dollars. we'd still charge in Bitcoin, but the prices will be denominated in," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "30:07", "start": 1807.09, "text": "in, in, in do- the prices will be denominated in, in dollars also just to take away this complexity from the user that they have to think how much it actually is, because even though we are maybe s- Some of us are, you know, Bitcoin Maxies or the unit of account Maxies are in shambles. I mean, look, I understand," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:28", "start": 1827.55, "text": "obviously the more hardcore people might try to cancel you for not being unit of account Maxi, but, I think the goal here is to get people onboarded, so, I can understand, the rationale there, and, you know, maybe in the future when there's less volatility, you know, but I, it's, in fairness, volatility is coming down over time, but, you know, maybe Unit of account maximist in that sense. but yeah, okay. So it's," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "30:53", "start": 1853.07, "text": "it's an interesting learning for, for sure as a project, I have to say, because we ultimately thought, okay, it's a, it's a good thing, you know, the, the volatility wasn't that big, so we adjust the volatility like, you know, every like, a period of time, but then as we know Bitcoin, you know, it quickly goes up, it quickly goes down at times, and then, this is, yeah, maybe a bit of" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "31:19", "start": 1878.75, "text": "So yeah, so that's kind of the rough" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:20", "start": 1880.05, "text": "price for the Alby Cloud aspect of it. Can you just explain, like, I guess just roughly, I know you mentioned there's four or five LSPs, but what's sort of the ballpark that someone would pay for this inbound channel and the, the channel liquidity aspect?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "31:36", "start": 1895.7, "text": "So in, in dollar terms, it would be like ten, fifteen dollars, which is a one time, setup fee for the channel. what we focus a lot is on that the channel is open as long as possible. so the channels actually stay open if people are using, using it, you know, at some point if people stop using it, the channels, will be closed or LSPs will close the channels. but what our concept is, as I said, like you open the channel Once and you have it like for the whole lifetime. So and, we are also experimenting with," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "32:15", "start": 1934.7, "text": "different concepts to solve this Barrier of entry of this ten, fifteen dollars that we still have, through like, other means, for example, that you have like, it's part of the subscription or it's part of a special service that we will provide so that you don't have these high upfront cost, but that we can solve it in a, or we can package it in a, in a, in a, in a service package." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:40", "start": 1959.62, "text": "Right. So the user doesn't have to get sort of hit upfront with the fees, that kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, look, ultimately People have to remember that the fiat system is government is fiat subsidized, right? So the bank might offer you a free debit card or free access to their ATM network or free access to, you know, but it's fiat subsidized, right? Like it, they, they are getting all this money out of the loans, and that is a fiat, very fiat subsidized business. And this is over in Bitcoin land, if you, if you want a certain level of freedom or a certain level of, you know, being able to use Bitcoin, you know, in terms of actually earning and spending Bitcoin, then, you It's a pay-to-play, right? This is the price, this is the price, I think. so I think it's, you know, it is gonna be a hard conversation amongst certain people who are sort of like, \"Oh, you know, what about the people who are only earning a certain amount?\" But, you know, ultimately, you gotta decide who you can serve and who you can't, who you're not able to, you know, make it, who are you not, who's not able to make, you're, you're not able to make it cost-effective for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:48", "start": 2027.78, "text": "As an example, new user signs up, he wants Alby Cloud, so he's paying, you know, that fiat fee, well, I guess, ten thousand five hundred satz right now, but you're gonna change that to fiat terms, and he's paying in fiat terms maybe ten or fifteen dollars for a channel, but let's say that's a one million satz channel, that's, you know, at today's prices, what is it, like ninety-four thousand, ninety-five thou- so, nine hundred and forty dollars or something like that, right person has, in terms of earning and spending Bitcoin, and I guess the idea would be as they're earning more and more, that amount might rise, right? They may have multiple channels, and then the point is you need to sort of pay this one-time setup fee, you know, call it twenty or thirty dollars, and then from then on, you're able to sort of do lots of, cheaper transactions because it's on Lightning and you're not hitting the chain every time. So I think For somebody who is regularly transacting, right? Like if you're zapping on Nostra or you're kind of streaming Sats or you're earning Sats or maybe this is kind of like your little play around wallet or maybe when you go out for lunch and dinner and you're paying, you know, you're paying someone back This could make sense in those circumstances so long as you're regularly transacting, because you don't, you don't necessarily have to hit the chain that often and pay the on-chain fee, you're just doing this kind of one-time setup fee and maybe occasional channel, let's say re- either resize or getting a new channel inbound, right? That's, that's how I'm thinking about it. Would you agree, disagree, or how would you, add to that? Exactly," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "35:27", "start": 2127.15, "text": "that's how it is. So, and I, I think our emphasis is also on that it's Network one through that channel, the channel is a decent size, so that it's typically enough for the average user to, you know, send and receive and go back and forth without needing to do much of rebalancing, opening new channels and all these complex things. So, and, what, what we've seen also what a lot of people tend to, to do a mistake is opening small channels, right? If they do it on, if, if you do it on own, like you open, a hundred thousand- thousand zats channel, or two hundred thousand zats, and that's actually not very practical because then you have not much capacity to send and receive, and that you add another channel, but then, you know, it adds a bit of, of some issues that you have to understand the Lightning Network, like how payments there work, how the channel rebalancing works, and so on, and that's why our take is get a decent setup. Have a decent size of channels, and then you can send and receive, and you don't have to worry about, and the channel stays open. So the channel stays open like as long as possible. So, and we actually want to get to the point where we can say, okay, we can actually guarantee a part of, like, for example, a fee that you pay to us as a service provider is that we make sure that you have enough, that the channel is open and that you have enough capacity to, to send and receive, to, to not worry about that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:58", "start": 2217.58, "text": "This show brought to you by mempool.space, the world's leading Bitcoin visualizer, and now they've got an accelerator program. So if you have a transaction that you sent at a fee that was too low to get confirmed, now you can fix this at, with the mempool accelerator. The way it works, you can go and search your transaction, scroll down, click accelerator, and you don't need an account, you can pay with Lightning, and then it'll show you it's now in the process of being accelerated, and then after a few minutes, it's confirmed. And so this is a" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:27", "start": 2247.34, "text": "And this can happen where maybe your wallet doesn't have RBF or CPFP, or it might help you in situations where it's impractical to go and re-sign, so for example, multisig with keys in different locations. And thirdly, even in some lightning scenarios, perhaps a forced close, you might not be able to use RBF, and so in this case, the mempool accelerator can help you out. So keep it in mind, and you can find out more over at mempool.space/slash-accelerator. Gotcha. And I guess again, another question for the listeners who are interested about the technical aspects of it, what about paying on-chain out of your Lightning balance? Is there some kind of swap provider in the background or splicing or what's the, what's the thought there? Like as an example, let's say I've set up the Alby Hub, I've got an LSP channel for nine hundred and forty dollars or nine hundred and fifty dollars, whatever, for one million sats, let's say, and, you know, I'm trying to pay for a conference ticket and it Four hundred dollars, as an example, or whatever, let's say the, the supplier doesn't have Lightning, and so I need to pay them on chain, but my balance is in Lightning. How does it work for you guys?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "38:33", "start": 2312.9, "text": "I, I mean, we work on that everybody gets on Lightning for that, because also the conference ticket up to, like, you know, a few thousand dollars should be possible that's, like, to do, to, do in Lightning. so we definitely focus on that. So we definitely focus on Lightning, we want to focus on the Lightning adoption or the second layer is over built on top of, of that. so and we want to make that easy, streamlined, and so on. So right now we don't have any swap servers directly, in the hub, but I guess this will come. that, that you are able to do that, and right now you would just use one of the default, swap, service gotcha. Because you could alter, you could" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:17", "start": 2357.35, "text": "go to like a, let's say Bolts dot exchange and use them as your swap provider, but right now maybe it's a bit more manual, right? So I guess it would require the user to kind of manually go to Bolts dot exchange, paste in the Bitcoin address they wanna pay to, use them, and pay that lightning invoice. To then pay out, so, you know, let's just say, let's chalk that one up to early days, but hopefully as Lightning adoption is getting easier and easier now, more and more people, especially at these values, right? Especially at the values kind of under a thousand dollars or under one million sat Nowadays, it actually is pretty feasible to make those payments over Lightning. The question is just more like, if the merchant that you're trying to buy from or the other party, party, hasn't set up Lightning yet, right? Like they're just kind of doing Bitcoin on-chain only, then it's kind of a bit of a problem for now. Yeah. But hopefully over time, it gets easier. and, you know, what we've seen as an example is, you know, even some of these new people who come out like Proton, Proton Mail and Proton VPN and so Namecheap, right? They've done a lot of on-chain volume, but they don't, they don't have Lightning support yet. So it's kind of, the, some of this is like, I guess I'm gonna put that down to teething problems, and yes, you know, I think it's fair to say many of us thought Lightning would be more advanced than it is today, but at the same time You know, this, this is what it takes, right? I think, this is the reality and we have to sort of deal with reality and grapple with reality as it is, but I, I will say I think we've seen some encouraging adoption in terms of a lot of exchanges, a lot of big service providers have turned on Lightning, so I'm hopeful. Let's see." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "41:00", "start": 2459.5, "text": "Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty confident. I mean, accepting on-chain Bitcoin has been around for much longer, right? So the tools are much better, and at the same time, it's definitely much easier to do, right? You have less complexity, that's for sure. Lightning is complex, and the tools are still kinda, still new, and the service provider like the LSPs or also what we do with Alby Hub, that's still very new. But I think that's coming, and with that, it also makes it much easier for merchants, to accept Lightning Anymore right now, like for sure channel management is, is an issue, for merchants, but it will be taken away, so they don't have to worry about that anymore, and with that, we also will get more adoption, I think. Yeah. and that's why we focus on lightning and not like on the on-chain parts because we rather want to make lightning better than like making a good on-chain swap experience or something like that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:50", "start": 2509.67, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah, I see. And then I see you've also got like a merchant aspect of it. I guess I guess in here is that they won't use Alby Hub and Alby Cloud themselves, right?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "42:05", "start": 2524.62, "text": "yes. I mean, what-- what's-- and maybe we can talk a bit about NWC there now for a second, because NWC is, this," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "42:15", "start": 2535.47, "text": "messaging layer, this messaging protocol, like called Nostro Wallet Connect, it actually also uses the Nostro Inf-- the Nostro Relay concept, the Nostro Relay infrastructure, and it's a messaging layer between applications and wallets. and that makes it quite easy for, any application to interact with the wallet again. and one of the applications that we, for example, also have is, is, as in the app store of Alby Hub, is, a point of sale, solution. And it's actually the nice thing, the exciting thing is, it's actually a quite, quite super simple point of sale solution. That is a purely client-side JavaScript application. It is very simple. It focuses very much on simplicity and it builds on top of this NWC protocol, meaning that it connects to any wallet that supports NWC and is just using that one as a backend. So again, here we try to, to- to decouple, the application from the actual wallet, and by doing that, building the application becomes much more easier, much more secure, because you don't have to have the lightning complexity directly in. So and with that, for example, the point of sale application is a really simple JavaScript application that anybody can build, that it's easily to host, that is, very secure also, because it, it, it doesn't hold anything, it doesn't even hold keys, it only has the- Permission to create an invoice from the wallet through this messaging protocol. So, and, yes, I mean, also with that, we hope there will be more specialized applications and more easy-to-use applications, for merchants. And, yeah, this, our point-of-sale, application there was also, got pretty good feedback so far from, some of the, especially smaller merchants, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:10", "start": 2649.92, "text": "Yeah, I see. let's talk a little bit about Nostr Wallet Connect as- As well, just to, I guess, explain that and round out some of the explanation there. As I'm understanding it, it's like a way to sort of connect different wallets with your- provider, can you maybe explain that a little bit more for us, just, just to get that a bit clearer?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "44:32", "start": 2672.24, "text": "so it is a way for applications to communicate with the wallet. So again, here we try to, to differentiate that, right? Or we kind of to decouple that. the wallet is Alby Hub or CoinOS, for example, is also implementing NWC. There is an LNBITS, plug-in for NWC, though. There is quite Some adoption around, the NWC protocol. So it's not only like for our, for the Alby Hub, but it's an open protocol that our other wallet providers are also using and it's, and so the Through this communication protocol, it means that applications can talk to any of these wallets through a standard interface. and that means building the application becomes much easier, and it gives the user much more choice. So for example, I can use AlbyHub, somebody else uses a different wallet, but they can use the same applications that build on NWC. So it's kind of, you can imagine it as a, as another layer on top of Lightning. Lightning is the settlement layer and NWC is the communication, layer on top of that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:46", "start": 2745.72, "text": "Right, between different software and different apps. So between, yeah. And so the, like, the idea, help me get this right, the Nostr Wallet Connect Protocol. Is that for pushing invoices back and forth, or is that for pushing like a user intent to pay back and forth? Like, can you explain that part for me?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "46:07", "start": 2767.25, "text": "So, how it basically works is, it's the intent. So there are again like, very strict permissions that the user can set and the user can define on the wallet. And ultimately, you can imagine that an application, like the point of sale applications, for example, is sending a message. Let's even call it like a direct message, right? Not to a human, but it sends a direct message to the wallet. And, so the application Person writes a message, says, \"Hey, please give me an invoice of a thousand satoshis,\" and sends that one to the wallet. the wallet then checks the signature, sees, \"Oh, okay, I know this application, I've given that application permission to read these invoices, see transaction led balances, and so on,\" and I check the permissions, I see, \"Yes, this application has the permission to do that.\" The wallet creates the invoice and then encrypts it again and sends the message back to the, to the application and the application then gets the response and can do whatever it, it needs to do. Interesting, yeah. And so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:13", "start": 2833.12, "text": "it's interesting because it uses sort of, it uses nostril relays to kind of send those messages around. Yeah. And it, I guess, it unlocks different use cases and different ways of sort of connecting things, as you said, wallets and applications, where I guess historically- People might have had to have everything all in one, and I guess that was the problem, right? Because then, how many people are gonna build this wallet and that particular application together? Yeah. Whereas, yeah, that's-- I guess that's the power of sort of decoupling them, I guess." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "47:46", "start": 2866.4, "text": "Yeah. Yep. Very much. And also, like, you know, these applications can focus on their USP, so they don't need to build lightning wallets. you know, there are special lightning wallets, there are special wallets that hold your money and do the lightning stuff or whatever comes Patients and focus on building the best Nostr client, the best point of sale application, the best, podcasting app and so on, and wha-whatever it is, right? They don't need to deal with the lightning complexity because it's kinda, there is a standard way of doing it. Right, that's the power of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:16", "start": 2895.86, "text": "the, the decoupling aspect of it. Yeah. So who are the main people working on Nostr Wallet Connect itself? Like, who's involved with that? I'm curious." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "48:24", "start": 2903.88, "text": "so it's a growing community. like" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "48:32", "start": 2911.87, "text": "with the goal of making tapping in the Amethyst application, quite easy. Before that, you always had to switch, you, you were in Amethyst, that's a Nosta client, you have to switch it, pay the invoice, and then go back and so on, and this is obviously not a nice experience, and that's why, this was, yeah, was the, was, was, was the concept. The great thing to add this on, on the relay concept or using Nosta Wallet Connect is it's solved Solves the problem of, connecting to the node even if it runs, for example, at home, and some of the listeners might have done that. If you had an Umbrel and you wanted to use Zeus or whatever, then you had to go through Tor to connect that, and it was quite complicated and it was very slow and often unreliable. And this problem is solved because we high kinda have this relay system, somehow in between. Which also adds some privacy features. Interesting, yeah. I like, I, that's really fascinating. Actually pretty cool. So." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:36", "start": 2976.36, "text": "Yeah, I mean, that is fascinating. I, I remember, you know, my first experience, at the Lightning conference in, Berlin, I think it was October or November of twenty nineteen. and I had a Zeus connecting over Tor to my, you know, my node back home in Sydney at that time. Yeah. And it was, you know, it was really slow, right? But I mean, I still did it because that was kind of, you know, that was like the, the cool way, the, the cool way to do it. But nowadays, this would be so much faster, even if you didn't have an easy way to sort of tunnel back to your home network where your-- Yeah. If you have your node there, then this is like an easy way," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:17", "start": 3016.99, "text": "Nostr Relay and what Nostr Wallet Connect, now it's just a much easier experience. So that's actually really cool. Exactly." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "50:25", "start": 3025.46, "text": "Yeah. So that's, that's the, it's, it's actually, it's, it's, it's amazing how fast it actually is. So, and, yeah, it's, it's thanks to this, this concept. And also here the cool thing is, it's quite independent. So, you know, it's using the Nostr infrastructure, this is the open Nostr infrastructure, and it builds on all the tools that are built in this ecosystem" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "50:47", "start": 3047.01, "text": "Theoretically could be used. There are many SDKs in Nostal that can be used to do these kind of things. So it's nothing, you know, Alby hub or Alby specific or wallet specific, it's kind of, it's tapping into this bigger ecosystem which, which is powerful." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:02", "start": 3061.86, "text": "Yeah, I think that really does kind of spell out, I guess, the power of some of these open standards and open interaction between different apps and wallets and things. so, do you wanna just touch on Alby Go for a minute? I, I understand this is the mobile application, so I guess you can connect that to your other Alby components." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "51:22", "start": 3081.85, "text": "Yeah. So again, it's actually a quite simple application that is using NWC. so it's kind of this front end that, And we like, like it's, it's, it's a front end for everything that you need to, that you need when you want to pay with Bitcoin on the go, right? And we wanted also here to focus on simplicity, so it's the most simple Lightning application, that you can use on the go to send and receive payments. So it has a receive button and has a send button, and that's basically it. It shows the transaction history if you want, but it's, you press send, you scan a QR code, and that's it. And it Of NWC again, so you don't hold keys or whatever in the wallet, so that's why the wallet is also, again, very simple and secure. you connect it to a remote wallet, connect it to the Alby Hub or any of the other NWC wallets, that are out there and, yeah, the functionality is then quite the same. I scan a QR code, with, with a lightning invoice in, like a bar in the pub key bar, for example, or one of the shops, in El Salvador, and, an NWC message is sent to the wallet. the wallet checks the permission and sees, okay, cool, yeah, I know this application, I got the, the permission is set, there is a- Budget maximum set, for example, it's below a certain amount and so on. The payment is executed and then it goes back to the, to the, to the mobile wallet. And, yeah, so this is our first like- People have been, asking for a long time for an Alby mobile wallet, and this is now our first, yeah, step towards that, evolving so far. Interesting. And so that allows you to be" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:12", "start": 3192.16, "text": "self-custodial using your own node without having to do Tor or fancy like VPN tunneling, to go back to your own node. Now, I know there are, I guess there are other protocols like, is it LND? You have LNC, I think it's called Lightning Node Connect or something like this, but I guess- This, this is like another way of doing it, and I guess this is, I guess using the LDK stack, right, as you mentioned before, but because of using Nostr Wallet Connect, that, I guess, obviates the whole Tor or VPN back to your home network aspect." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "53:47", "start": 3226.64, "text": "LNC, LNC is quite similar, but it's very focused on the LND stack." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:52", "start": 3231.84, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "53:53", "start": 3232.62, "text": "and it's a bit like, I think it's, it's an amazing protocol, but it's also like a quite complex one. I, as far as I know, still only works with LND nodes. so it's quite cou- coupled to LND. and also for developers, it's quite, comes with a big baggage of, like, I don't know what, what it actually is doing. Like this awesome kind of package thing, and Nostr Wallet Connect is much more independent of the node, right? And, it's, it's, it's much more lightweight. I see, yeah. So I guess you could say" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:28", "start": 3268.03, "text": "Nostr Wallet Connect is maybe a quote-unquote more agnostic in a sense, of what apps it's working with and what wallets it's working with. So maybe that's why there's been, from what I can tell amongst developers in Lightning world, it seems there's a bit of excitement around Nostr Wallet Connect. So I've seen that, even just when I see developers talk about things, so that's really interesting. so yeah, we've covered some of those aspects. let's talk a little bit about who are the main users for now. Is it just, you know, everyday plebs? Is it small merchants? Can you tell us a little bit about that?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "55:02", "start": 3302.44, "text": "Yeah. so, so we in the Lightning space, we like our focus is on growing, growing the pie, right? Growing the user base. So we are in the search for use cases that give new users, non-Bitcoiners, actually a reason to come to, to come to Bitcoin, to use Bitcoin, exactly. so this is the, the mission actually that, that, that, that we are on. and so right now there's, Definitely still quite diverse, you know, we mentioned, some that are like the typical Nosto users that are using, these tools to send and receive Saps, we, have quite, a lot of podcasters actually that receive, podcast value for value payments, also with the new Alby hub, then, we have some small, especially smaller merchants. that use it to, receive payments, but the majority for, for sure, I would say is like the general, still the general, Bitcoin pleb that is excited about, using Bitcoin in, on the web and various applications and experimenting with it. So Gotcha." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:23", "start": 3383.42, "text": "Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I like what you guys are doing. I hope, to see more, you know, self-custodial adoption where, wherever it's possible, of course. So I understand it is gonna be an uphill battle as well, given, you know, there's all these custodial wallets and apps out there, and most users won't know the difference, right? So they're just gonna-- a lot of them are just gonna go for that, but- We'll see, maybe, over time there'll be at least a, a, a decent chunk of the people who wanna be self-custodial, and then maybe that's where they find their way to some of these self-custodial apps, but yeah, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on this kind of- You know, do you think it's an uphill battle against Custodial?" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "57:09", "start": 3429.09, "text": "Custodial is always Easier, that's for sure, right? If I give away everything to somebody else to do it, then I don't have to do it, somebody else has to do it, so it's easier for me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:22", "start": 3441.65, "text": "Right. And maybe less cost, or at least less cost to that, to that customer until they get robbed or something, right? Yes. I mean," }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "57:28", "start": 3448.14, "text": "for sure, somebody can maybe do it better on scale because I can, like, share the costs among more users and so on. So yes, that's for, for, for sure, like, like I think. But it obviously Bounties, right? And I think, it is, also question of, a bit of education and understanding, of, the space, and if people understand that more, and people, I think, will understand that more, you know, by just, you know, all the education that you are doing and all the, like we as a whole community are, are doing, people are, valuing that. So I think for sure, That, that is the future, and at the same time, it is becoming easier. It is becoming so much easier to use, right? So I still compare it, you know, or this typical com-comparison to the early days of the internet, where you had to get a modem and you had to get, I don't know, enter some SMTP codes to send an email, and then you said nobody, has an email client and whatnot. So it's, it's kinda, kinda, kinda similar. The tools are getting easier, and with that also like being, And becomes, becomes easier. yeah. But I think in the future, both will have their places. There will be bigger companies, with a lot of resources that can go through the, also the regulatory requirements, and there will be users that prefer going through KYCs and all these, limitations, to do it. But there will be a lot of users also that, value being able to run the nodes On their small Raspberry Pi at home or on a small device at home, or wherever it is, and, yeah, as I said, I think this will become much, much more easier, and we've seen that in the recent years that it becomes much easier. So, we'll see where it goes. So, you know, it's gonna be solved either on a technological side or it's on a, on a KYC regulatory side, and I think for sure the- Yeah, we are here for, solving it on the, on the technological side." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:42", "start": 3582.1, "text": "Yeah, I think a very astute comment. so yeah, I, I think it's a really cool project. I like what you guys are doing. hope to see more adoption of it. yeah, as I said, as we were talking about, there's Alby extension, which is a browser extension. There's Alby Hub, where you can run your Lightning node either in the cloud or, on your own at home, and Alby Go, which is the mobile portal into that, if you will. and so, listeners, check it out, it's getalby dot com. You can follow Boomi on x dot com slash boomi, and I'll also include your nostra nPub in the show notes, as always. but Boomi, thanks for joining me, and, yeah, keep up the great work. Thank" }, { "speaker": "michael_bumann", "time": "01:00:19", "start": 3619.96, "text": "you so much. Awesome. Thank you for having me." } ] }