{ "episodeId": "SLP634", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "nicolas_burtey": { "name": "Nicolas Burtey", "role": "guest", "tag": "NICOLAS" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:11", "start": 11.16, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Bold. For American listeners, you can go to getbold.io to buy Bitcoin there. Now rejoining me on the show is my friend Nicolas Burtey. He is the founder or co-founder and CEO of Galloy. So welcome back to the show, Nicolas." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "00:29", "start": 29.11, "text": "Yeah, thanks for having me back, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:31", "start": 31.49, "text": "So lots of things have happened, as, as I, you know, people-- Some listeners may know, some may not, but, Blink and Galloy have, you know, gone separate ways, I guess, sister companies now, and you are, you know, still, leading the Galloy side of it, and of course, you have been, you know, spending a lot of time in El Salvador over the years and, have also, I think, some interesting" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:59", "start": 58.55, "text": "And of course, what does it look like really on the ground trying to do Bitcoin on the ground? So, so let's just start there, I guess maybe just a quick overview for, for listeners who don't know you, do you wanna just kind of go back to the beginning of what you were doing with what was then called, you know, Bitcoin Beach Wallet, and now it's called Blink?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "01:21", "start": 80.97, "text": "Yeah, sure. so if I come back to the beginning of time, you know, for my journey in Bitcoin, so I founded Gallow in 2019. And I wanted to show that you could use Bitcoin to pay for coffee, I know it was a meme, at the time, it's no longer a meme, you can, you can do it now. But I was looking for places to develop, yeah, tooling using Lightning at the time, it was really, my ID. I, I understood that maybe in the United States, it wasn't going to happen, pay for small, good and services in light- I think because of mostly capital gain issue, and so I heard about, project in El Salvador before the Bitcoin law came into effect. This is before the Bitcoin law, for the listeners, right? I think the Bitcoin" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:17", "start": 136.58, "text": "law was, I think September or so, twenty twenty-one. So what you're talking about is actually before that." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "02:22", "start": 142.37, "text": "Yeah, like, eighteen months before. and so I heard about this community called Bitcoin Beach, and I said, hey, you know what? I can help you develop the wallet because I, I wanted also to, wanted to build something in the Bitcoin space, and you need users, right, to get started, and I really wanted to be Like helping on, on board, I guess, new user into Bitcoin, and El Salvador seems a, a very promising, land to, yeah, build a wallet, so I, I went there and I created the, the Bitcoin Beach Wallet, It was, more than four years ago now. And the shortly thereafter, the Bitcoin Law came and the world grew quite significantly, after the Bitcoin Law. but my, my goal at, at Gallow is really to make, banking software, get, bank and financial institution to, to adopt Bitcoin, and it's really more like a, a B2B software idea, like, you know, you will get, banks to, to adopt, Bitcoin. Of course, like four years ago, it was, five years ago, it was still early to get back to, the Bitcoin, and we, we can, dive into why, like there was some regulatory orders that are, are changing now. But the idea that, okay, you know, if you will quit your own customer, so you will just quit your wallet and, and this is customer zero, and the wallet, go quite significantly, after the Bitcoin, But if you make a wallet, it's like really a B2C idea, like you will have to make some, gamification. So if you try Bitcoin, it's now Blink, like you will have a, a system to earn sets, buy onto increase, and there is a map, and you, you have to think a lot about, yeah, how do I get, you know, my application viral to get some more, yeah, right, more users? And, and I guess, and I'm curious as well," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:23", "start": 262.58, "text": "just to hear your thought as well, because I think the community Lightning, right? I think it's probably fair to say that, you know, there was kind of the-- if you looked at kind of the Bitcoin Lightning community, it was sort of like, \"Oh, yeah, you run your, your node back home, and that's like your Lightning channels,\" and, you know, a-a-and that, and it was kind of very end-user focused, but at the same time, there were pro-products like Bitcoin Beach Wallet at the time, which was like an, a custodial, easy-to-run sort of app that, you know, people could use without And I think what I would say, the way I would frame it is, and some people say this as a criticism, but it's almost like Lightning nowadays makes, it's kind of like a B2B, layer almost, but the end, a lot of the end users aren't necessarily doing the channels themselves and all this stuff, they're using a provider who, who deals with that for them. Now, you know, we can talk about self custody and all that, of course, we want as many people to self custody as possible, but I think that's, that's probably an important Shifted and evolved, right? I'm curious how you see that." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "05:30", "start": 330.35, "text": "I, I, I think that's very fair that four, five years ago there was a lot of, you know, small nodes, you know, the, the, the Splei, by the way, Splei, Raspberry Pi that were, participating in the Lightning Network, and I think we see less of it now. But for me, the- The fact that Lightning is, getting more centralized into like bigger actor was always how it's going to play out. So even though the community maybe four years ago was, a bit different, like I, it's going where I would have expected to be. And, and the main reason is probably in, in twenty nineteen when I, I founded Galore, I, I, I started with a self-custody Lightning wallet, and I understand after working on it for a couple of months that- The, I mean, it, it won't work for like most, individual, user, because it's too complex and there is, inherent limitation about how liquidity works for- lightning channels. It, it doesn't mean that, lightning isn't valuable. I think lightning is extremely valuable. and, and lightning really map what we have in the banking system, in, in the fiat system where, yeah, if you have a- Like, if you, if you have an, an account at a bank, you know, you need to fund it up front, and if you want multiple bank, because you want to be able to send payment across different country or this type of thing, you need to fund this, this different account, right? And, and, and Lightning is no different, And, and so you need liquidity basically, and, and, a larger entity can manage liquidity, you know, have the resources to do it, like an individual, you know, maybe doesn't have necessarily financial resources to have the liquidity available, right, at all time. And, and this, I think I, I understood it, yeah, many years ago, and, and this is why I, I want to create like, a custodial wallet, because I, I, I thought it, it will be useful. Of course, there is a lot of pushback against custodial wallets. Of course, yeah, and of course, it's very" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:44", "start": 463.85, "text": "important we talk about in Bitcoin, not your keys, not your coins, all that. But at the same time, while we do say that, at the same time, I also acknowledge that Not all eight billion are gonna be able to self-custody, at least with current technology, and for that reason, I think there will be Bitcoin banks, and I think maybe that's-- for some people that's controversial, for others that's sort of like, \"Yeah, it was always gonna go that way, right?\" So I think that's probably an important thing to talk about. So maybe this concept of Bitcoin banking, as you see it, can you explain a bit about, you know, what is the right, what is the correct role of Bitcoin banking?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "08:16", "start": 495.81, "text": "You know, yeah. Yeah, there's a, I, I can, I can spend a lot of time on this question. I mean, one of the first thing ju-just on the aspect on the, Bitcoin bank, like, banking can be very different in, in Bitcoin than it is for fiat. last week, we, we met in person in El Salvador for, Plan B Forum, and my talk was about proof of reserve because I think that's one element that can really differentiate Bitcoin banking to fiat banking, with Bitcoin banking You can be full reserve and it doesn't mean that you are going to like print more money out of thin air, right? And, and I think there is, generally the conception In maybe, you know, the hardcore Bitcoin maximalist, quote unquote hardcore, they say, no, no, you, you shouldn't, you shouldn't," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "09:09", "start": 549.2, "text": "you know, you should always hold your own key because otherwise we are going to oppose the fiat system, but, but the idea that, for me, Satoshi is the case, you know, Bitcoin and central bank more than Bitcoin and banks, banks can be useful, I think, And so if, if we dive into more like what is, Bitcoin banking and how it is different than, than fiat banking. So if we come back to the idea of, Bitcoin Beach Wallet, for instance, something that is very unique for, Bitcoin banking is that anyone can run their own bank. And when I went to El Salvador like four years ago, I, I didn't ask for permission, I just, you know, went there and there was this, willing to use this, wallet and, and I started here, like, just, you know, And that's about it. And, a-and I think a key point is that you can't do that with a fiat banking. Fiat banking is with the ID of, it's, you have to ask for permission before you can do anything, because you need access to a central bank or access to a bank account. Like, it-it's a permission system fundamentally. And I see a world where it's possible to have- A million bank in Bitcoin just because, you know, someone could launch a small bank in, in, in a city and, and sell their own, Customers that are in their area, in a way that's not possible, I think, with, with fiat banking. and if we just stay very generally on the concept of, Bitcoin banking, I think there will be many form of Bitcoin banking. The, form that we are building with Galo is maybe very similar to the fiat banking in the sense that we have a ledger, and we can track transaction and we can see, you know, who on what. but there will be probably Bitcoin banking, I think, with, e-cash, the idea for like cashew or Fedimint or gotcha, it's, it's also Bitcoin banking, it's, it's custodial, but now you add the layer of privacy into it. And, and the challenge here for this, project to see the light is, is more like the regulatory framework, and maybe in, in multiple jurisdictions it will be, you know, not welcome because it's too private. But This type of ID could never see the light in the world of fiat banking because you couldn't even get started, right? You couldn't even, put something in production and see how it goes at small scale, like because it would be killed before you know, you have one user. I, I know I, I see, you know, the, all the, you know, cashew mint, you know, in the world, and those are Bitcoin bank, like, you know, and, and I, I want to see a world where there is a million of Bitcoin bank, and Lightning is a collecting glue among all these banks, and I think that, that also, you know, you could also have, Ark as another system, that is not, necessary purely ledger based, and, you know, it Maybe like you have a way to use it, but but I guess the key point is that, you know, each of these things" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:15", "start": 734.65, "text": "have like some kind of different trade-off, right? Like if you are using Liquid, okay, now you're putting some level of trust in the federation to not, to not run away with your Bitcoin. Of course, there are swap services and things like that. If you're using Ark, well, okay, then maybe there's more interactivity and there's, you know, the ASPs still have to kind of build that out and, you know, it's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:39", "start": 758.75, "text": "Just like we've seen in, let's say, in the, there's always like darknet market rugs every now and again. So, you know, for all we know, they could just rug. On the Fedimint side, okay, it's a bit more technically complex, so maybe it's now, it's a more challenging thing to run, but at the same time, maybe there's, you know, there's positives and negatives to all of these things, and so, and then, let's say In the style of Bitcoin banking that's more professionally run by a, a known custodian, right? Like a Bink or others, and then I guess kind of even The less formal version might be the kind of Uncle Jim, right, like the Uncle Jim who custodies coins for his, for the people in the family because Grandma hypothetically doesn't know how to do, et cetera, right? But I guess these are kind of some of the options that exist, if you aren't able to do everything yourself. I guess that's kind of the high level way I'm seeing it. How would you characterize some of those different options? And I guess there's also, maybe an interesting distinction is, are they a local kind of local bank or community Community bank or are they, let's say, a global style, just online, it's an app service bank?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "13:49", "start": 828.74, "text": "on your question about local versus global, I, I think, at least on the business success side of things, The what I would qualify as Bitcoin bank that are successful are the ones that offer, typically buy Bitcoin functionality, and If you want to offer buy Bitcoin, it's, very country dependent because you need access to a bank account. banking is today like at least fiat banking is, is local, right? You, you cannot today- Just say, okay, I, I will have a, a bank account in the US and be able to serve customer in, I don't know, Nigeria or, or Ghana, you know, South Africa, for instance. You will need typically, a banking partner there if you want to, serve those customers. And so I, I, I think the," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "14:44", "start": 884.16, "text": "successful, companies in the space are typically, yeah, buy Bitcoin local. Now, if you think about, wallet like Blink or wallet of Satoshi, it's a bit, a different approach because now it's like, okay, if, if you don't have fiat banking access, then now you can be more global" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "15:03", "start": 903.08, "text": "and now it's like you, you're not offering necessarily a buy Bitcoin functionality, you're more offering, you know, like, wallet" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:13", "start": 913.18, "text": "functionality, right? Whereas maybe some of those other ones might offer the exchange feature as an example, the brokerage or exchange feature." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "15:22", "start": 921.81, "text": "Yeah. And so i-it's, it remain to be seen, like, you know, which in the long run, which business are going to be successful? Is it like the, the brokerage type of thing, or it's like very local, or is it like maybe- Company building on top of Lightning that can have a, a more global coverage. The, the challenge with a global company today is like the regulatory environment is getting more, difficult. for instance, in the US, you can't get, US customer unless you have like money transmitter license, and you need to go on each state and, and get license, and it's very costly. It seems Europe is moving in a similar direction, so it, it, it also depends on how the regulatory environment will evolve. Like if, if you need, a license in every country to operate like, a, a Bitcoin wallet, like I, I think the, the global," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "16:16", "start": 975.83, "text": "the, the idea of having a global wallet will be maybe harder, than, than getting more localized. But I, I think, yeah, the companies that, currently are focused on a, on a single country, if it's a large country, and you have a lot of volume and you, you offer buy Bitcoin, I think is, it's probably the first use case, for Bitcoin banks that are very relevant. We see that the upcoming UK use case that we can discuss about is what we are currently working on is, the That you have bought Bitcoin, you know, the price of Bitcoin is going up, you could sell the Bitcoin, but most Bitcoin I don't want to sell, and, and you can say, okay, maybe I'm, I'm going to go against your Bitcoin. so we see that as, as a significant use case upcoming, which we are currently one of our product is, with Lina is, is focused on that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:10", "start": 1029.77, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by CoinKite dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on the, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now, you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network work using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Vector Desktop or Nunchuk as a few examples. Now, you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices such as passphrases. You can use seed x or, or my favorite is multi-signature. Now, if you're starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. But I believe these devices are great at helping secure your coins. Especially as you start to migrate up into multi-signature security. But don't be disheartened or don't be, scared away. They are accessible, and I think you actually do learn about Bitcoin in the process. So to get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code livera to get a discount on your cold card. And now back to the show. Yeah. And so I guess there's different ways to achieve that. There are existing, let's say, companies who offer that kind of thing in the, let's say, in the Bitcoin world today. But this And the ex-cause to some extent, we're gonna see some of the Bitcoin companies sort of merge and become sort of fiat connected, and then we're gonna see some of the fiat existing banks sort of merge to the Bitcoin world and say, \"Well, okay, we're gonna start offering Bitcoin custody.\" And then obviously, like you said, once a fiat bank offers Bitcoin custody, a very obvious next step for them is, \"Hey, lending,\" 'cause it's a huge, there's a lot of money to be made, it's a business model, it's a very clear business model, the i-is a very, you know, it's a, it's a model that a lot of people understand, it's a model that's very popular for high net worth people and for some of these large banks to offer, and obviously they can, they can make some interest rate, interest revenue on that. So I think it's an interesting sort of, we're gonna see the, the worlds merge, and I guess, The, so then the question also is, if you are a fiat bank, I guess, and you're thinking, okay, look, this Bitcoin thing is going off, lots of people are getting into it, how do I get involved? I guess the natural options are either try to buy an existing Bitcoin lender Build something in house or take, take a white label solution, and that, that's how I understand it, right?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "19:53", "start": 1193.22, "text": "Yeah, if you-- I mean, if you want, I, I think offering buy Bitcoin functionality is, what probably most bank will start with, indeed, You can, you know, connect to a brokerage for it, or," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "20:12", "start": 1211.7, "text": "I mean, t-typically you will connect to, you know, a brokerage or other OTC, trade for it. And, and then you need to custody it, so, you know, if, if you're not doing custody, you, you need people to, get some, some on-chain address, but I think most bank will want to offer custody because it's their business, to custody assets. i-it used to be that it, it was really their main business, like when you think about vaults, or like gold, gold was involved, and, and, and now more and more with fiat banking, the custody aspect is less, less relevant, but With Bitcoin, there will be more bank going back into like the real business of custody where security is key, you know, like you, you are really investing in, into that, and that's, certainly the, the first step that, banks are going into and then lending will follow, s-something I think was, mentioning is that There is the conception that banks don't like Bitcoin, that is, you know, banks are against Bitcoin because it's like, eating their business, and I, I think that's, I mean, maybe the case for some banks, but," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "21:29", "start": 1288.52, "text": "the, the way I, I think about it is that, central banks have over time make bank very, fragile, because of like zero interest rate for a long period of time i-is, it's, it's, you know, banks have to go into like a high leverage and but if you think about the business of bank, you know, historically it's like custody and, and, and I think the idea of bank custodding like digital assets, makes sense. Yeah. It's just that-- So I guess I'm curious, are you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:02", "start": 1321.51, "text": "then saying that bank, you know, the perception is that b-banks don't like Bitcoin, but actually some of them do or they're not necessarily opposed to Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "22:10", "start": 1330.01, "text": "I, I think many do. The, the problem comes down to how banks are operated today. yeah. Banks need permission today, like in, in, in many countries, to do anything. otherwise they lose their banking license. And unlike Bitcoin, i-i, you know, with Bitcoin you can, you don't need to ask anyone permission to access a central bank, you know, you can just have a Bitcoin node and you can transact. with, fiat banking, like if you lose your license, you lose your business. and And the way the system works today with, with banks is that they need to ask permission for anything. and I know there is more and more documents on Chokpoint two dot two that are being released, but What you see that there are like dozen, if not hundred, of banks that, have been interesting to go into Bitcoin. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:06", "start": 1385.7, "text": "this is such an important point, right? Because in the past bull run, in that past era, the twenty twenty-one era, there were big banks who wanted to do Bitcoin custody, and actually they were being guided or coached away from that by government and the regulators, which is kind of a huge bombshell that's kind of coming out, and now I think more and more people are starting to sort of accept, okay Operation choke point two point o, it was a real thing where these banks were being either debanked or individuals in the Bitcoin and crypto world were being debanked." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "23:36", "start": 1415.56, "text": "Yeah, exactly. a, a lot of documents are being released this week, I think, or, yeah, I mean, it started in the previous weeks, but now there is more and more accessible document. A, and clearly you see, so, an entity in the US is the FDIC, it's like the insured deposit, and, and because the insured deposit, like, they, they really have a lot" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "23:56", "start": 1435.66, "text": "might be doing, and you see document where they say to bank, like, \"Yeah, you, you know, your Bitcoin things here, like, until we say so, you know, you should refrain from offering a product in this area indefinitely, basically.\" And, and of course, the bank, you know, will invest one year, two years into it, and they see they cannot have a product, here, you know, eventually they're just not going to invest. But, what we see, like, a, a lot of banks w-wanted To offer, yeah, Bitcoin product and they've not been able to. And, and, and because the relationship between the bank and the regulator is private, like, you know, we only start to see those communication now. I mean, we, we probably in the Bitcoin community, we had the insight that, the regulator didn't want, bank to add Bitcoin. No, we have the proof of it, right? with like, all the document for operation, two point two. So, so the point is that I think bank wants, to add Bitcoin. It's a great business for them. and I will, I know that the regulatory landscape is changing like almost under the eighty, I think a lot of banks, in the United States will, adopt Bitcoin. And, and one interesting thing, you know, if we think about El Salvador, for instance, you imagine, okay, you know, El Salvador have adopting Bitcoin as legal tender in twenty twenty-one, why banks in El Salvador have not, you know, i-is there not like, A-any Bitcoin product in, in, in El Salvador for the banks specifically. And the reason is because if you think about it, a bank in El Salvador is, is using the US dollar, and the way they move money, I mean, it's, i-if you move from- El Salvador account to an El Salvador account, you just use, Central Bank clearing system. But, where do a bank in El Salvador keep their deposit of US dollar? They keep it in a bank in the US? Right? And it's like a layer two type of thing, right? You can, you can, if we think about Bitcoin term, you know, like layer one is the Fed maybe, and layer two are the banks in the United States, and Salvador is, is kind of layer three using banks, you know, because they don't have" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:19", "start": 1578.79, "text": "direct access to the Federal Reserve in a way, they don't get a Federal Reserve master account, I guess is the technical term. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "26:25", "start": 1584.76, "text": "And, and, and whether they have or whether they don't, the, the point is that even though Bitcoin is or was, should say legal tender in, in El Salvador, the, the, this, law didn't matter much because their correspon- their corresponding bank and, and indeed corresponding bank, the bank here, in the US, were saying no, like, we, you- Or the, the rules here say you can't touch Bitcoin, so if you touch Bitcoin, we're not going to work with you anymore, right? and so the bank in Israel," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:57", "start": 1617.16, "text": "like, so it's like a chilling effect in the US that spills over to other countries, even if they wouldn't like to. And," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "27:04", "start": 1624.33, "text": "and that spills over to everywhere, right? A, any banks that need, like, Some US dollar, which is like virtually hundred percent of the bank right, some ex-athlete need access to the dollar because it's an international reserve currency. i-i-if they get, they lose their access to the dollars, then they're not going to integrate because... So you can even think, you know, okay, like maybe operation two dot, operation, operation checkpoint two dot o is like a US thing. i-it's like have implication in, you know, virtually all, all countries in the world, so, and, a-and so now that this, We see over the last couple of weeks, like, no, it's like, no, e-even the," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "27:50", "start": 1670.21, "text": "John Paul say, no, no, bank can, can, can work, you know, in Bitcoin and crypto." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "27:58", "start": 1677.7, "text": "like, I, I think he would have never said that a year ago. so I, I, I see, I see definitively the fiat bank going into Bitcoin like quickly, because now the market is opening up. Yeah. but I still see a lot of-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:12", "start": 1691.75, "text": "Development regulatory topic, we should also chat, obviously the big one, that recently was repealed is this SAB 121. do you want to comment on your thoughts there? Does that enable a lot more banks to actually start doing Bitcoin, products and services and custody?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "28:28", "start": 1708.34, "text": "Yeah, so there was a different hurdle. We talk about Shockpoint two dot O, which is like a overall term. there was a FDIC, which is the insurance of the bank that were preventing bank to, add a Bitcoin. In addition to that, there were indeed, SEC, bulletin called SEC B one twenty one that said that if a bank want to custody, like, if, if a bank were, over all the other hurdles, this is, this was an additional one that said A bank that have, let's say, ten Bitcoin, on behalf of the customer should have a equivalent amount of dollar, locked In reserve to support this, this tender concern. It's like an insurance, if, if you want to think about it, where, where like, we don't force this, you know, Bitcoin collateral. So y-y-you have ten Bitcoin worth like a million dollar, like, on behalf of your customer. Sure. reserve like- A million dollar for it just in case, and you, you can't use this money for anything else. a-and that was basically, unfair treatment, i-i-accounting wise, that were really discouraging bank to-" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "29:43", "start": 1782.61, "text": "to, to, to, to have any Bitcoin in, in their balance sheet because it will remove, the, you know, the bankability to use cash for something else basically. Yeah. And so now that that's been taken away, I think" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:57", "start": 1796.92, "text": "most people are of the view that this is gonna open the doors to many more banks who actually want to provide some kind of Bitcoin service." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "30:05", "start": 1805.45, "text": "Yeah, indeed. Yeah. I, I, I think there will be a hundred and eighty degrees. I mean, there, there is already, I think, a hundred and eighty degrees in, in, yeah, in, in banking on, on Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:17", "start": 1817.48, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about, LANA then. So I guess you've got this, this, it's like a, a, a software that will enable this. So can you explain a little bit about that and, what are some of the, the ins and outs here of using this as a way to enable Bitcoin collateralized lending?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "30:39", "start": 1839.41, "text": "Yeah, so LANA is basically a lending platform as a service, we build for bank and financial institutions that want to offer Bitcoin-backed collateral So if you think about Bitcoin backquarterly, you need to have different, feature you need to, of course, be able to custody Bitcoin, and so the way we have designed it, you can plug your custodians, you can have a different custodian if you wanted to, and it can be centralized custodians, you know, like, a BigGo or Fireblocks, but the idea that you can also have a multisig, for like you know, each, one descriptor for each, loan basically. But you also need to manage your, collateral risk. So if the price of Bitcoin is going down, then at some point you'll have a margin call, and if the customer doesn't react and top up the collateral and the price continues to drop, then there is some, liquidation that you need to think about. and so we're basically packaging a software that, you know, handle all the technicality for, for the bank so that, the bank can go to market, fairly quickly. I mean, f-from the end user perspective, I think it's a fairly known, you know, type of, loan, which is like, if I want to get a loan for my Bitcoin, I first deposit my Bitcoin, and then there is, A wishio, you know, let's say it's fifty percent. So i-if I have a million dollars of Bitcoin, I can withdraw, you know, maybe five hundred k, and then I need to repay. And, and the software is, configurable so that it can be, a credit facility, like a credit line, or it can be a loan, and you can configure, okay, is the customer able to repay, you know, in advance or not? Like there's a lot of, things that a bank might want to consider," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "32:39", "start": 1958.55, "text": "A bank, you know, and how to manage a risk on the interest rate, right? Like, but a bank might say, okay, you know, it costs like, ten, twelve percent per year to, to, to get a loan from your Bitcoin, but then you need to source the," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "32:57", "start": 1977.01, "text": "the, the dollar, right? And you need to source it at a lower interest rate, if the customer is able to repay, you need to think about, okay, now I have like money that don't earn interest, and like, I can, you know, bank can, can lose money on, if they don't manage the risk properly and the interest rate properly. So we also provide some, risk, tooling to, for the market I want to say, you know, okay, how much money, you know, depending of where the interest go or, you know, the price of Bitcoin go, and like a lot of risk, aspect to, to think about here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:33", "start": 2012.57, "text": "I see. And so the idea then is this is like a software that they could use in addition with their other software that helps them manage the, the loan in terms of, you know, margin, liquidation, collateral, and these components of it, and then They would also need, I guess, like some kind of reporting out of it as well to sort of get, okay, here's the current state of my loan book and that kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "34:01", "start": 2040.6, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So, so, so a bank typically have a software called a core ledger, which is their main software, which is like, where they have All their customer information, their balance information, their transactions, and so it's, like a software that will live, nearby the collegia, that will synchronize to the collegia. I-it can be used as a standalone also, so it depend if it's, If there is a new bank that use this as a main software, they can use it as a main collator. If it's an existing bank that want to, add this, Bitcoin-backed collateral offering in addition to, you know, all the other loan products that they will have, then it will be something that's, goes side by side with their collator and there is a, synchronization with their collator. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:51", "start": 2090.86, "text": "And then, the proof of reserves aspect, like, how does that come into this? Like, are you seeing that as something that would be also exposed to the end user side or- I presume that's how it would work, right?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "35:07", "start": 2106.71, "text": "Yeah. So proof of reserve, if, if we stay back, I think proof of reserve is something that every bank in the Bitcoin should do. And I think today there hasn't been enough Bitcoin bank that have, worth it out. And I, I talk about it, during my keynote at, Plan B about You know, I think why I think that is, the, the reality that I think to the customer aren't asking for proof of reserve, and which is why, you know, for most Bitcoin bank, it's not, yeah, you, you have less priorities and, you know, if, if your customer aren't asking for it, and you, you always have more, you know, things that are higher priority. I, I want to, yeah, highlight that I think, Wever in the US is doing great, you know, to do that, but There's only, I think, US Bitcoin banks that is doing it, and, I think more should be doing it. W-what's interesting on, on proof of though is crypto exchanges, you know, maybe fifty percent of them do it, and so I think the, maybe in the crypto ecosystem, there is more involvement in proof of though than for the purely Bitcoin only bank, and I think that, you know, we should set the example, right? so, yeah, I think we, yeah, we need to. And, and when does, a US bank, you know, a US Bitcoin bank or brokerage w-will add this if, if their user ask for it? So I think, yeah, y-y-user should be a-asking, yeah, more about this. Now, to, to come back to the," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "36:47", "start": 2207.01, "text": "like w-when do you do proof of reserve? So you, you might have proof of reserve for the amount under custody which is like, okay, if, if I'm using a, a, a brokerage service and I buy, you know, ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin, twenty thousand dollars of Bitcoin, oh, my Bitcoin is here, I, I should have proof of whether for this, meaning even though I've not withdrew it to my cold wallet yet, you know, I know it's here, I can verify, I think that's the, the first type of, proof of reserve we might want to see. Now, when it comes to lending, it's a bit more trickier. it, it depend about, so if you do lending and it go to a, a individual multisig like the Unchained model, then the proof of reserve is, inherent because you see that your, right, it's all on chain, right? UTXO is here and it's, it hasn't moved, and so you don't need proof of reserve in that case. But now, if you send it to, custodian that's Is, i-it's not just for the, the wrong, right? Because it's not individual on-chain deposits or things like this. Yeah. This is why it's become maybe more important to have proof-of-reserve, unless, I mean, some, some, Bank might want to like do re-hypothecation, and in that case, you know that okay maybe you're over owing twice because your collateral is being reused, yeah, there isn't twice being generated on that, but I think if Proof of reserve is common, then you know that you, Bitcoin is being re-allocated and it's like higher risk, but maybe you pay lower interest rate, and you should be able to, you know, make your own decision about like, do I want to go there or not? but if you don't have proof of reserve, you, you have to really trust that maybe if it's a comingle wallet, that, you know, they're not really happy taking it, right? And, and I think it's, this is why also the more there will be lending in the space, the more we need proof of reserve. Also, if we don't want to go back to like a block five or Celsius" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:47", "start": 2327.35, "text": "that we have like two or three years ago. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it takes it away from the, the \"trust me, bro\" model and Helps the system stay a bit more, less, susceptible to this kind of fractional reserve practices that, has happened before, like things like Mt. Gox and FTX and so on, and so- in terms of, the custodian, how does that work? Like, if the bank is either doing now, some banks will be, they'll have their own technical team who might do custody, others might use- A professional custodian, others may use, you know, different approaches. How does that play with LANA?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "39:35", "start": 2374.56, "text": "So the idea of the custodian is like, it, you can configure it, you can configure the custodian you want to work with, as a bank, you know, if you're a bank, you say, okay maybe I'm just want to have multisig, or maybe, my bank have approved, you know, two or three custodians that are known in the industry. And then, what we're working on currently is that every time you create a new loan or a new credit facility, you can attach it to a custodian And so it's quite versatile, right? Where, like, because maybe you work with, a large institution that also want to work with this custodian, and so you go in the custodian or at the bank and basically the, the bank as a lender and the borrower, you say, okay, we're going to use this particular custodian. but, but maybe another borrower might want to use another custodian, right? And so there is for the way we think about it is that, the both the borrower and the lender should be able to agree on a particular custodian. or if it's a multisig, great, you know, then it's about, okay, who, who have access to the multisig. and with a miniscript, it's, you know, fairly straightforward to like, set up, a coin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:57", "start": 2457.3, "text": "And then in terms of Lana, like, how far along is this? Like, how mature is this product? And are you out there actively, you know, promoting it now or are you kind of in pilot phase? Like, where is it at?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "41:09", "start": 2468.67, "text": "Yeah, so we started working on it about nine months ago. we have no, banks that are doing proof of concept with it, and- And, we just announced, yesterday that we have this product, and now we want to work with more, customer But the way we think about it is that, the reason w-we are also announcing it is because of, what's happening really in the US with the regulatory environment. up to now we're really, I would say building the product, and we were thinking, okay, there will be a need here, and the need is coming, but right now it's, it's really like, a challenge from a, a technical, not a technical, from a, regulatory standpoint. To like bring this product to market, but now we think like, you know, it's, it's the right time. Yeah. And so now, now we're like, yeah, I mean, we want to get the, the customer." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:09", "start": 2529.14, "text": "The lead sponsor of this show is BOLD, the best place to buy, sell, and save Bitcoin. For listeners in the US, BOLD lets you secure your financial future with complete peace of mind by integrating a low fee Bitcoin only brokerage with next gen multisig vaults. With BOLD, you can smash buy Bitcoin or set a DCA plan for only" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:30", "start": 2550.15, "text": "Bitcoin direct to your Bold Vault. The Bold Vault is a two or three collaborative multisig where you hold two keys and Bold holds one as a redundant backup protecting against loss or theft. You can use Trezor, Ledger or cold card hardware wallets to spin up a Bold Vault in just a few minutes, and the Bold Vault is the only collaborative custody vault available with zero monthly fees. They're also offering zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys and twenty five dollars of free Bitcoin when you buy a hundred dollars of Bitcoin or more. Try Bold today and upgrade. read your stacking experience over at getbold dot io. And now back to the show. And how-- I'm curious, 'cause I, I guess people who are maybe in a bank, in a fiat bank now, they might be thinking, \"Well, is there an existing product that my bank has or an existing software that can already do this?\" Or maybe they have some kind of overall ERP, SAP thing or something like that. How would- Line are compare with that." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "43:26", "start": 2605.72, "text": "So typically if you have a, a core banking platform, this, making loan is, key Elements that this software will do, but now you will need to think about, okay, how complex is it to make it, you know, Bitcoin friendly? Right." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "43:46", "start": 2626.05, "text": "and if it is, and you know, you might say, okay, maybe I will develop this type of product internally. But when you start thinking about, okay, you know, maybe I need, You know, different custodian or I need like a multisig and my system need to be real-time because, you know, I need to have it every time, if the price of Bitcoin is going up or down. You need to be watching the chain to see deposits" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:06", "start": 2645.76, "text": "and withdrawals and, yeah." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "44:07", "start": 2647.11, "text": "And, and like, do you have a real-time core? Do you have a core that is, you know, posting entries like one time a day, which is the case for many banks? so if you have a very recent core, yeah, maybe you can do this, and it, it will still take you quite some time to integrate, I guess, all the aspect of, of Bitcoin into it, but Yeah, if you though, the, the idea, at least our value proposition, is that you will go to market much quicker, if you work with us. I see, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:36", "start": 2676.38, "text": "And so, I, I guess part of it is just like working with people who've already been in the Bitcoin space for a while compared to sort of doing your own thing or working on using software that's not, let's say, specialized for Bitcoin, So in terms of, I, I guess other products, as I understand, the idea is, you know, Galloy is not just doing Lirona, but there's kind of other Bitcoin banking software or infrastructure? Can you explain a bit about that?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "45:08", "start": 2707.82, "text": "Yeah, I mean, we've been building like for the last five years, on, on different product, another product that is relevant for, I guess banks is called Kala. It's, idea of having a, a general ledger or like a double-entry bookkeeping system. So One way to think about it is like maybe for most people in the Bitcoin space that aren't working for a bank or don't have like banking expertise. When you have your own key, like, you don't need to think about assets, liability, equity, this type of thing, because basically the assets is your key and the liability is to you, like, you, you don't have this like layer of protection that you need if you're a bank. So If you're a bank, you, okay, and you're a Bitcoin bank, basically your assets are the keys, the private keys that allow you to spend the Bitcoin. So, for assets you have Bitcoin, and you have what we said liability. Liability means that as a bank, I owe money to People right to my customer, right, if they have an account with you, etcetera, yeah. I, I need to make sure it's, it's match, right? and so at, a-and this is why proof of reserve matters is you, you want to make sure that you have more assets than you have liabilities so that you can, e-every customer can, withdraw their money at any point in time. But when you start thinking about, okay, asset liability and your book equity, which is, the, the values that the bank have, Or like the, the, the money that they have if, the bank were to be wind down. no, this is, you need software to manage how you move the money from one account to another, and, and this is where this software called Kala is, something that we use for LANA, for instance, like to manage all the account and, and the interest and, and all that. So it, it's another quite powerful software. that we have developed over the years. It's like what night's a V3, because we, with Blink, we did a V1 and, and then we iterate on, on, how to make it better, and we have a, an idea for, a template system, which is quite important." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "47:25", "start": 2845.09, "text": "and, yeah, so it's, it's, it's Cala is another product that I guess, some banks might want to look at if they- integrate with, with Bitcoin. Another that we have is called Boya, which is," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "47:41", "start": 2860.52, "text": "our custody solution and payment solution for Bitcoin on chain. which we have used for, Blink for the last three years. The idea is that how, how do you scale on-chain payments, like for wallets that have, you know, a lot of customer and it, you need to do things about batching and everything, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:03", "start": 2882.82, "text": "Gotcha, I see. So this is like software so that a bank can manage its on-chain withdrawals for the customers and this kind of thing? Gotcha. Okay, interesting. yeah, okay, so yeah, interesting to see, the, the, the meshing or the merging of the Bitcoin and the fiat worlds, and, yeah, we'll see, see what happens there in terms of, fiat banks, do they come to the party? I, I think they will over time. Maybe it'll take a few, it'll take some time, but I think there's a clear incentive, right? Because there's so many people who want Bitcoin that, you know, clearly there's some money to be made here on the fiat banking side, so they're gonna come to it. Any thoughts on, you know, what does that look like? Is that gonna be like they're all rushing to, you know, the, your phone is ringing off the hook or is it more gonna be like a steady-- I think it's gonna be more like a, a process over the next few years that they start to open these conversations." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "48:57", "start": 2936.85, "text": "I think banks will want to rush into Bitcoin as soon as they can, and I think no, they can't, and so, I mean, i-i-is it going to happen in weeks? No, I think it will take, you know- months or probably more years, you know, because it take time still to, for bank to understand that, okay, you know, there is regulatory clarity here, you know, we're not going to risk our business by adding this new product, this type of thing, but, i-if you think about it, I think the last three, four years were extremely hostile to, to Bitcoin in general. And now it seems to not be the case anymore, and, things can, can change quickly. So I'm, I'm- yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm very bullish on, I think, you know, generally banks adopting Bitcoin. it, it remained to be seen is like, you know, who, who, who is going to get the biggest pie? Is it like bank, you know, larger banks, smaller banks, you know, but today fiat banks that will go into Bitcoin, or is it the Bitcoin businesses, that will go and become fiat banks as well, yeah? Yeah, it'll be interesting to see which, which way" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:04", "start": 3004.0, "text": "it goes. You know, we'll just see, many different approaches there. on the El Salvador side, I'm curious if you have any, just, you know, on the ground insights to share there, especially things like around the legal tender law, and just kind of Bitcoin adoption on the ground, has that really changed, or, you, do you think like the legal tender law was sort of not that relevant in terms of getting, adoption on the ground?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "50:31", "start": 3031.28, "text": "Yeah, I, I mean, something worth mentioning, I guess, maybe some of your listener know, but, maybe some don't. So, El Salvador has adopting Bitcoin as a legal tender in 2021, but the law was repealed ten days ago. Yeah. And so Bitcoin is no longer legal tender in El Salvador as of like, yeah, ten days ago, I think." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "50:56", "start": 3055.79, "text": "and what's interesting is that, you know, two countries in the world have adopting Bitcoin as a digital dollar, El Salvador and El" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:03", "start": 3063.29, "text": "Salvador." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "51:05", "start": 3064.53, "text": "And both of them have, like, you know, Going back and, I know w-we don't see all, you know, countries in the world having Bitcoin as a digital currency." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:16", "start": 3075.99, "text": "Sometimes it's two steps forward, one step back." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "51:20", "start": 3079.55, "text": "Yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:21", "start": 3081.2, "text": "but I guess anyway, to the question of, yeah, but, but, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the question of like, does it matter on the ground? What, what's your, insight there?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "51:30", "start": 3089.92, "text": "So, o-okay, there was a lot of influx of Salvadorians using Bitcoin three years ago, and there was a, a government wallet called Chivo that was rolled out, and it didn't work out very well." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "51:45", "start": 3104.55, "text": "so the, adoption of Bitcoin here over the last two years was, I would say quite steady, not necessarily growing. the, the legal tender law said it was mandatory for business to accept Bitcoin, but this was never enforced. And so the fact that, the law was repealed, I, I think doesn't really matter because, the law Yeah, it wasn't even enforced anyway. i-it's important maybe also to say that the law was repealed because of IMF Like there, there was some discussion for many months, if not years, that, El Salvador could get a loan from the IMF If apparently they repeal this law, right? So, so it's not that, El Salvador wanted to repeal the law, but there was like some external forces that were, here to pressure El Salvador to like, going back on, on this law. And if you think about it, you know, i-if you remove a law, that says that you have to accept Bitcoin, but, you know, it was never enforced, maybe that's not a big deal. some people have different point of view on that. One thing I'm curious about is that, a lot of the large businesses here in Ecuador have accepted, and still accept to, to this day, Bitcoin payment, like you can think of, of the Walmart of the world, Costco, McDonald, you know, Starbucks, like all this international chain, they abide by the law," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "53:20", "start": 3199.94, "text": "it's unclear to me whether now that this law is being repealed, like, all, does all this, you know- Large corporate business will stop accepting Bitcoin and, and probably because they were accepting Bitcoin to make sure like the government couldn't, you know, find them, you know, because it was mandatory as part of the law and I think it would be not great for, Bitcoiner living here if like suddenly, you know, you couldn't spend those Bitcoin in all those places. we'll see if they stop accepting Bitcoin or if they continue to ac- to, to, to accept it. but for me that's one of the things I'm, I'm looking at. Because I, I go in those places, you know, and, and this is where I spend my Bitcoin, right, basically, and, and if it, if this no was not here, probably those businesses wouldn't have access to Bitcoin in the first place, right? All these like international, businesses. so yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm curious on how this play out. yeah. I, I think it's worth mentioning that," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "54:24", "start": 3264.34, "text": "Bitcoin is very beneficial to El Salvador, okay? El Salvador have probably the larger go, the largest growth in- Tourism compared to any other country, and, you know, part of it is because of the increased security, but part of it, I think, is because now El Salvador is like becoming a financial hub, you know, it's just not like- place where you hear about it because of, you know, Mother Wight or something. And so I, I, I think the fact that, El Salvador has adopting Bitcoin have really benefited, let's have a go." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:00", "start": 3300.47, "text": "Yeah, and, I, I guess it's important to note that it's different in the sense that El Salvador is still stacking Bitcoin, right? Whereas like the Central African Republic, like that kinda, that kinda, I think that kinda, there was like a shitcoin, they had some Sango coin or whatever something else, I don't know. Whereas like with El Salvador, they actually still hold Bitcoin, they're still stacking Bitcoin, and there's still like an actual grassroots movement on the ground to get Bitcoin adoption and this kind of thing. So it Thing to compare, and yeah, as you said, the tourism attack. The only thing, I, I" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "55:32", "start": 3331.83, "text": "think it's an attack, on maybe Bitcoin as medium of exchange, right? i-it's, it's great that El Salvador stack Bitcoin or buy Bitcoin, but if you think about it, like it's a state buying Bitcoin. I know you're saying, okay, like on the ground, you know, maybe you- I mean, w-w-w-was the signal that the IMF tried to send that, no, you know, the citizens shouldn't use Bitcoin, kind of, like, like it's too risky and, and so of course, it's great to see states, oh, great, I-I don't know, I mean, it's, it's open to debate, I think, but, yeah, we're left with El Salvador will continue buying Bitcoin probably for the foreseeable future in, you know, some strategic Bitcoin reserve. But I think for Bitcoin to succeed, like we want to see it continue as a medium of exchange, and, and right now I see this low appeal as still like a step back on Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, I think, which is where, you know It's, it's like, not, not too great in my mind. Yeah, I see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:31", "start": 3390.55, "text": "Yeah, I think, we'll just have to see what happens there. It does seem though that Like as an example, even the Plan B forum in El Salvador, there was a big attendance, I think it was like two and a half thousand people. So, and actually, I think a thousand or maybe twelve hundred of them were Salvadoran as well. So it's not just like all these, you know, American Bitcoin people flew in for the conference. It's actually there are local people interested in Bitcoin too. So I think that's, that's, that's certainly notable and interesting, but, yeah, we'll, we'll just have to see what happens over time There'll be kind of a new round of people pulled in, and there'll be all these people who already sort of have some familiarity with Bitcoin, or they see the stores that you can already buy things with Bitcoin and so on, or it's a way to earn money or remittances and these things. So we'll just have to see what happens there, hey? but I'm curious, what's your kind of outlook on El Salvador, right? I mean, you're, you're still staying in El Salvador, right?" }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "57:24", "start": 3444.3, "text": "Yeah, I think in Cebu, I think it's a great country to live. I like that people are very positive on the future, and that's not something that you see, I think, in, In, most other places, also maybe this is changing, but, yeah, Salvador is a great place to, to live, you know, the, the weather is great, year long, and, I mean There is, there are a lot of Bitcoin here, that's, you know, the fact that there is no multiple Bitcoin conferences is kind of, kind of interesting, right? I would never, never guess that, years ago. And, and there is, You know, some," }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "58:06", "start": 3485.76, "text": "probably some new wood incoming on bank that will be using Bitcoin here more, so I, I, I see that, you know, it's, it's not like, El Salvador is like stopping any, you know, Bitcoin interaction or it's, it's, it's really a player for AMF, but- And as I understand, Tether" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:25", "start": 3505.16, "text": "announced that they're gonna set up a headquarters there, they're still doing like the kind of- the kind of asset platform, I think something there. So we'll see what happens there. but yeah, I think that's about all we've got the time for. So, where can, people find you online? And, yeah, I hope, I hope people check, check it out." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "58:44", "start": 3523.89, "text": "Yeah, my tutor is Nicolas, Burtey, I'm sure it would be in the show notes and, for anyone that have an interest into like Bitcoin back landing, I mean, now we have announced it yesterday, we, we have quite a bit of people reaching out, which is, great to see, but, you can go to Galloy dot io, yeah, feel free to reach out to us. To discuss." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:07", "start": 3546.88, "text": "Fantastic. Well, thanks for joining me, Nicholas." }, { "speaker": "nicolas_burtey", "time": "59:10", "start": 3550.22, "text": "Thanks, Stefan." } ] }