{ "episodeId": "SLP649", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "alejandro_de_la_torre": { "name": "Alejandro de la Torre", "role": "guest", "tag": "ALEJANDRO" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:12", "start": 11.89, "text": "Hi everyone, and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast, brought to you by Bold. For American listeners, you can buy Bitcoin over at getbold.io. Now, rejoining me on the show today with, his new venture is Alejandro de la Torre. He has a, a new pool, he's a CEO and founder, it's called DMND. So, spelled D M N D. So, first off, welcome back to the show, Alejandro." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "00:35", "start": 35.26, "text": "Thank you, thank you, Stefan, thank you for having me." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:38", "start": 38.03, "text": "Lots of things going on, and, excited to hear a little bit about what you're doing with demand pool. this is a new SV2 Stratum V2 pool, so for that reason, people who have been, let's say, having mining decentralization concerns, they might be, somewhat alleviated here, and, I think, yeah, it An overview from you, and then we'll get into other questions." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "01:03", "start": 63.43, "text": "Sure. So, we just launched, we've been working in soft mode with, with the whole team. We hired, Around, small team, we got investment from TVP, which we're very proud to announce as well. that allowed us to work, even faster, and now we've launched the, the pooled pool. the DMND, we had a solo pool up and running, which was our fun and, and games, but, ultimately our goal has been from the get-go to start a fully Stratum v2 pool. It has not-- it has zero, it doesn't have a SV1 endpoint, it's only SV2" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:44", "start": 104.37, "text": "interesting. Okay. So, I guess just winding back, just for people who are, let's say, people are new, the idea just to understand the concept. So if you are an individual miner, you might have a mining machine, and why people go into a pool is because they want to smooth out the variance, basically. They wanna be able to have kind of, or at least they would rather get together with other people because it's, I guess, not very, feasible to be a solo miner, unless you have A very large hash rate, right? And so, and then what you're doing is, as you mentioned, Stratum v2, and you mentioned also not having an SV1 endpoint. So I guess for people who haven't heard, what is Stratum v2, just kind of a very basic overview?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "02:27", "start": 147.38, "text": "Okay. So, Stratum v1 is what all other pools are using. It's a protocol for Bitcoin mining pools. It was, created back in 2011, if I'm not mistaken. So It's almost, fourteen years old the technology, and it, it shows it's, it, for example, the data that is sent from the miner to the pool is unencrypted, which is a security risk. a lot of the, like, data is JSON, so human readable, which makes it way less efficient. and ultimately, and most importantly, in my opinion, is the block generation, the creation of the blocks and the addition of Of the transactions are handled by the pool operator and not the miner, and that is a concern, you know, that, that is a huge concern. I, my, my past is in pools, I was co-founder and vice president of, BTC dot com and Poolin, which were two very large pools. At one point, they were both, number one. I think BTC dot com was number one for two years in a row, Poolin vacillated between top three. and I grew over the years very concerned of this, Power that we had as pool operators, you know, I started to see also how the payment sys-method FPPS or fee per share, which was actually something that we came out with in BTC dot com, so I'm one of the creators of FPPS, we saw that This also cause, I saw that this also cause more centralization, because essentially it's two, it's two, it's two, distinct things that create the centralization risk in mining pool, and, and mining right now. It's number one, the block generation being handled by the pool operator, and number two, the payment method, FPPS. How does that happen? Well, number one, the miners when they connect to a traditional pool, they're, they, they give all the power to the- Pool operator, and there's nothing you can do technically speaking, there is no way that you can create your own block with these pools, there's no way. And number two, so just to explain" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:36", "start": 276.22, "text": "for that, just for listen, just to make sure everyone can follow along, what you're referring to there, as you mentioned, is the, what's known, I guess, as block template creation, right? It's this idea that the mining-- so not the individual miner, but the mining pool that they are submitting their shares to or point, they point their hash rate to the pool, the pool is" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:56", "start": 296.37, "text": "And so that, you know, for, the concern of decentralization, for the concern of being able to have, you know, what people say, censorship resistance, for these concerns, there is that aspect of, you know, I guess that's where this idea of- How, how could you set it up in such a way where individual miners could actually create their own block as opposed to being forced to delegate that up to the mining pool? Correct." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "05:22", "start": 321.78, "text": "So that's, that's, that boils down to the ethos of Bitcoin, you know, I'm-- Before I'm a pool operator, first and foremost, I'm a Bitcoiner. And, it, it isn't, it is, it is my duty as a Bitcoiner, as it is, I think, for everyone else that is a Bitcoiner, to maintain the decentralization aspects of Bitcoin. And right now the way it is, only around, let's say, ten to fifteen most, most, and, and, and, and to be frank, it's mostly five pool operators are maintaining or are creating, I should say, all the blocks in Bitcoin, which is centralization risk. It's, it's, it's centralized, effectively. So that, that is something that we cannot, we cannot, have in Bitcoin. Bitcoin is meant to be decentralized. It, it's- Value comes from decentralization. So it's, it's a concern not only for the ethos and, and, and for, censorship resistance and all that, all, all these, all these very important, things, but it's also- A risk for our investment as, as Bitcoiners, right? We, we want Bitcoin to be, a good investment, and if it's centralized, we-- it might be, you know, its, its, its value as, as, as a decentralized human, you know, like, let's say, a, a free, freedom money is, is challenged with this centralization. So that, that is one big concern, and that's why, that's what's trying to be two fixes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:56", "start": 416.31, "text": "Yeah, okay, yeah. And so as you said, so there's two components, you, as you mentioned, so the first part is the, the block template construction, so meaning the miner is choosing which transactions out of the mempool or mempools go into that block, and as you mentioned, that is arguably being centralized to about five, distinct pools operating around the world when it could be more, it could be de-decentralized down to the individual mining level. And then on the second component, you mentioned the payout structure. So I guess people sort of contrast, the way I've heard people contrast it is FPPS versus, PPLNS, or I, I believe in your system it's called Slice. So maybe just give us a brief overview there of FPPS versus other methods or, you know, your Slice." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "07:43", "start": 463.33, "text": "Sure. So, FPPS, essentially what the pool does is that it does a calculation. it, the question, one, one big question always is, is how the, what that calculation is. It's a black box, we don't know how the pool operators calculate FPPS. It could be every, every day, every week, doesn't, doesn't, we don't know. We can't, we can't verify that. We can't, we can't, it's a black box. But they calculate how many blocks are gonna be generated per day. That's a pretty simple But then they also, calculate the transaction fees for a historical, time, and then they pay out that percentage of, of, accord-- they pay out according to how much shares you have sent to them, that calculation and that, that cause, that is a, that, the reason why it's a centralization issue and risk for Bitcoin is be- is that, the variance is maintained solely by the mining pool operator, and that What that means is that, the mining pool operator has to have a very large liquidity pool, a very large war chest, so to speak, and there's only a handful of operators across the globe that can do that. And we're seeing that, we're seeing that right now in the, in the industry. So it's only Bitmain, Foundry, perhaps FT, F2Pool, it's only those guys that are able to, that have the amount, the, the, basically the money to pay out shares when the luck or the variance goes against them. So what does that mean? That means that sometimes in pool, in, in, in, in variance, with mining pools, the luck, we call it luck in, in the industry, can go against you, and it could- What that means is that you might not find a block. But since it's FPPS and FPPS, that payout structure always has to pay out for shares, that means that the pool operator needs to pay out the shares, and that means that the pool operator must have a lot of money in, in, in their war chest to pay out these, these, shares to the miners." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:55", "start": 594.63, "text": "So the simple way I'm understanding that is, if, let's say I'm a big pool operator and I'm giving FPPS, the idea might be, I need to pay out my individual miners, even if I haven't received anything. That's kind of the simple, I'm-- and in order for me to do that, I need a very large balance sheet, I need to be kind of capable to, to, to weather the storm of that, and ideally, I should be big enough that I get, I find blocks often enough that I can sort of find- You know, that I can earn that income and not be too far in the red or too far down in terms of having to pay, pay out to the individual miners versus what I've actually earned, right? Yeah, cor-correct," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "10:36", "start": 636.41, "text": "correct. So- So what, what, what we've seen now is that a lot of pool operators have, have, they're called proxies, a lot of people are calling it now, and pool and friends. Like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:48", "start": 647.56, "text": "proxy pools, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "10:49", "start": 648.8, "text": "Yeah, proxy pools, and they, they just, they just give the- Essentially, they're, they're, they're, they're a frontend, nothing more, nothing less. They're a frontend with a cool logo, a nice dashboard, but they don't have-- the, in the backend, the pool operations are handled by the very large, or, operator like AMPool, for example. So, this is the, the reason is that a lot of these smaller proxy pools cannot, don't have the amount of money Or balance sheet to be able to maintain, to, to face this risk when, when bad luck happens. So they give all their, basically, basically when you see, when you're mining with a proxy pool, you're essentially mining with Ampool or one of the other proxy pro- FPS providers, and that again creates a way-- So, so essentially, when you see the ten, fifteen pools on MemPool space or any other block explorer, you're actually seeing less Because a handful of those, proxies with X amount of hash rate are Ampool. They're, their, the whole operation is handled by, by Ampool. It's just these guys have a business, contract, business deal with Ampool, where they pay Ampool a certain percentage for, every time there's a block found via their miners, and then these guys just, take a, take a, percentage. They're, they're, they're middlemen essentially. So- it's, it, it causes even more concern, and that is more centralization, and that is, that's what I saw. it's kind of unfortunate that I was one of the guys who created FPBS, but, you know, I'm here to destroy what I created, essentially." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:35", "start": 754.76, "text": "That's a good clipable moment there. But, look, I think as you were pointing out, it's, yeah, as, as we're kind of saying, it's this payout structure that makes it a little-- that makes it more difficult. Now, if we were to explain alternate methods, like what are some of the other ways? So you have this slice payment system, what does that mean? How would that work? Why is that better or different?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "13:00", "start": 779.74, "text": "Right. So PP-LNS is, is, is a much fairer system. That's- Number one, why is it fair? Why? Because the pool operator, essentially just pays out when a block is found. This helps the industry as a whole. Why? Because it allows for other players to enter The pool space and be able to provide their services, their pool operations, to, to miners, because you don't need a huge liquidity ba- balance sheet to, to, to provide PPLNS. So it helps in that aspect, it helps decentralize the pool operations. That's number one. number two, it adds all the fees. So essentially, let's say there's a spike in fees, in the last twenty-four hours, with an FPBS pool, they- They can't, 'cause they, they do a calculation before, they can't possibly know that it's gonna be a, a fee spike in, in the future. So they, they don't, you don't get paid for that. So that's something that must be very clearly understood. You don't get paid if there's a fee spike or if there's more blocks found. Sometimes hash rate increases and blocks are found a little bit quicker than they, than they're, than they're used to be, like instead of every 10 minutes, it's every 9 minutes, which probably equals one, two, or three blocks that have been created, extra in that, in that difficulty epoch." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:27", "start": 867.11, "text": "yeah. And so, so we've been talking about how FPBS is kind of like an insurance scheme in some, in, in a, in a loose sense, that you're getting paid out anyway, but you're requiring the pool to front that money, and they kind of get to pocket the difference sometimes when there's a lot of transaction fees. Can you now explain the slice system that you're using, which as I understand is based on PPLA? Yes, but you have this other component to it." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "14:51", "start": 891.29, "text": "Yeah, so it's p p l n s in the sense of the block subsidy. So that's straightforward. We, we pay out, we pay out when there's a block found and that block is then shared, that block is then paid according to how much hash rate you sent to us. that's, that's, old school p p l n s, we haven't changed there. The j d part, which stands for jo- job declarator, which is why we called it slice, because Their blocks. And then, it, it, it, one thing to, to, keep in mind is that, miners aren't unfairly penalized due to fee fluctuations. so what-- I wanna, I wanna make it very clear that, if you mine with us and you decide to switch off, your fares, your shares are gonna be paid fairly. So there's been other systems in the past, Score, for example, that, penalized miners when they would switch off their hash rate to that, to that particular pool using that particular payout structure. Now, with, with demands and slice, we don't do that. We, you will get paid your fair share always. That's something that's very important to le- to pinpoint because a lot of miners have, they, they, they are part of demand response, they turn off, they turn on, whatever it is, they're, they're still gonna get paid their fair amount. That's number one. But, we, we, we adjust The, we basically do a calculation which can be, verified, by the miners. So that's another, to, to, to take it back a little bit. We have a transparency system connected to this payment, payment system. so a miner is able to actually verify that the share that they've received is being paid out according to, the calculation in the pool, so they can verify or challenge us that we're paying them correctly. That's number one. And they don't have to just-- and it's, it's, it can be a share that they sent or a share that anyone else sent, so they can verify that everyone is getting paid correctly. so that- That's one very important thing. and then, we, we, we subdivide the PPLNS lookback window, ensuring fairness in transaction fee distribution. instead of all the shares competing in a single large window, we slice the groups into smaller time-based segments, lookback window in other words, and we benchmark that slice against the highest revenue generating share that's, that's how it works, and, essentially it makes the system, it makes, it allows for miners who are adding more transaction fees to get paid according to that, or miners who are getting, who are putting in less transactions into the block to get paid less. So if you send us less transactions, you're gonna get paid less, and everyone else is also gonna be paid a small, a slight, disadvantage there. However, if a miner adds trans- Transactions, the miners in our pool get paid more. So it, it, it, it basically it equals out after a long enough period, it equals out to a normal payout." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:08", "start": 1087.56, "text": "I see. Yeah. And I guess you could think of it like You are also not paying for the quote-unquote insurance of FPBS. So I guess that's one other aspect that would be maybe a benefit for people doing, you know, this kind of system." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "18:22", "start": 1101.78, "text": "Right, right, right, right. So, so the, this, this whole entire FPBS model of, insurance is, is, is centralizing, as, as I said, and it, creates, a huge, let's say, balance sheet risk. we don't have that. It's fair, you'll get paid more, and you'll have the ability to verify that all your shares are being paid correctly. So it's, it's a, it's a win-win-win." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:50", "start": 1129.69, "text": "So there's less trust me, bro there. Okay, so I think the other, big question listeners might have is if, if they're familiar with the mining industry, what's the difference between demand pool and, let's say, Brain, to also talk about Stratum v2 and also Ocean, who have DARTAM. So can you explain the difference?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "19:08", "start": 1148.17, "text": "Great question. So I get Essentially daily, and, it's a good question. So Stratum v2, in my humble opinion, is primarily the ability to build your own blocks. Without that, I don't think it's Stratum v2, but okay. to be fair to Brains, they do have Stratum v2 features in their pool, like I think it's, the efficiency and the, the binary data, which are Stratum v2 features. So you could say that they have a Stratum v2 pool but the whole entire point of trying to be two is to allow miners to build their own blocks. So we, we, we kind of, we kind of, we kind of call ourselves the first fully transparent, SV2 pool because we're the ones who actually do the whole, encompass the whole entire features of SV2. Datomic, Datomic is a, is a also block template creation, as, in, technology and protocol. however, their, their, their, their specifications aren't yet live. They said they're gonna do it, it's been months. I just want to basically- it's good, it's a, it's a net positive for the industry to have more technology out there that allows for block template creation by miners. That's our goal. We're, we're, we're, we, we like that. So Ocean is good in our books. But I think in terms of the technology, Stratum v2 has been tested, has been, worked on for three years, has many, many, many miners wor- sorry, many developers working. It's a, it's a open source tech and it's well-speci- specified and documented. So I would just kind of my, my, my say there is, is that Taproot is the more advanced technology in that sense." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:07", "start": 1267.01, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by CoinKites dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on the seed word cards and keep that secure. Now, you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network Network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Vector Desktop or Nunchuk as a few examples. Now, you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices such as passphrase, you can use seed X or, or my favorite is multi-signature. Now, if you're starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. But I believe these devices are great at helping secure your coins. Especially as you start to migrate up into multi-signature security. But don't be disheartened or don't be, scared away. They are accessible, and I think you actually do learn about Bitcoin in the process. So to get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code Livera to get a discount on your cold card. This episode brought to you by Galloy. They are building banking software for the Bitcoin age. So if you are with a bank, a fintech, or a startup looking to offer some kind of Bitcoin product, whether that is a Bitcoin collateralized loan Deposit accounts or payments, Galloy can help you. Their latest product is called Lana. It is a loans management platform, and you can use this to come to market quickly and offer a loans, Bitcoin collateralized lending product for your customers. Now, Galloy have a lot of experience in the space. They started with Blink Wallet in twenty twenty, and they've since grown this to become a community favorite over time, and so they have a lot of experience making things work in a secure, reliable, and scalable way. So if you need assistance, come to to market quickly with a Bitcoin banking product such as lending or deposits or payments, talk to the team at Galloy. You can email them, the email is biz at galloy dot io, or go to the website galloy dot io. And now, back to the show. Okay, understood. And it is fair to point out network effects advantages there, right? so I think that's probably a one fair point of difference there. now, I'm obviously I'm not a technical expert, but I'm asking you, what? Is the-- when I was reading and talking to people about Stratum v2, I remember some of the Stratum developers talking about things like a, a translation proxy to sort of help old miners and this kind of thing, where maybe if the-- if, if that so that those miners didn't have to have SV2, but the pool could and things like that. How does that work in with you, or is it just more like every miner in your pool just is running their own node and that's it?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "24:07", "start": 1446.85, "text": "Good question. it's two, there's, it's two distinct things. The Bitcoin node, is, when, when you want to create, of course, it, by the way, it's optional. You don't need to create your own block with us. You can, you can accept our block template and just run with that if you, if you prefer. but if you want to create your own block, which is, what we want you to do, you have to run a Bitcoin node. But that, that actually is, A benefit for the miner because i-it's no longer necessary for the miner to send, or, or, or I should say, it's no longer necessary for the pool to send a new job to the miner. Or if the block is found by that miner who's creating their own blocks, they communicate directly to the Bitcoin node in their operation, and that saves them a lot of data, a lot of, potential stale shares, et cetera. So this is actually a very strong feature of ours, Because the, the, the miner is communicating straight to Bitcoin D, bypassing the, ne- the, the necessity to, to send information to us and then us as pool operator sending it to Bitcoin D. That is a very strong, feature of ours. And then there's the proxy, which is a distinct thing, and that proxy is a, a translator, and essentially what that does is that it cre- translates SV1, shares to SV2. and it's, it, it's a, it's a-- this proxy must be, used on your operations in order for, for you to mine with, demand. we are adding a bunch of cool features there. one of them is, for example, it's kind of a miner management software at the, at the end of the day. and it's very seamless, it's, And yeah, it's the reality. The, the, the, the, in the future, Stratum v2 ready, miners won't need to run that. Proxy that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:08", "start": 1568.14, "text": "translation proxy because they were just directly, you know, right. And I guess this is, because this is relatively new, even though it's been out for a few years and people have been talking about it for years, I guess you still want software support. You ideally, you know, in the ideal world, you want hardware that natively kind of supports it. And I guess where are we at today with, you know, the current, like the physical mining machines? Where are they on Stratum v2 support nowadays?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "26:33", "start": 1593.46, "text": "Well, it's, it's a kind of a chicken and Because if there's no Stratum v2 pools, the mine, the mining manufacturers don't, don't see a nece- a necessity to create a Stratum v2 miner. So it's a kind of a long-term play, in my opinion. I think, as, you know, when the demand gets, gets, you know, starts growing and this, I think a lot of these mining manufacturers will see that there is a necessity for them to create, say, a native SP2 machine that will start seeing it. Right now, there's no machines that So we're still in the early days." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:10", "start": 1630.0, "text": "Right. And I, I presume, is that also part or is that the reason why you still need this translation proxy as well?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "27:16", "start": 1635.79, "text": "Yes. Yes. You need this transaction proxy to translate the messages from SV1 machine to an SV2 message" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:22", "start": 1641.58, "text": "pool. Gotcha. into a message that goes to the pool, which is you guys' demand. Yeah. Okay. Okay, understood, I think. Yeah. Okay. And so then," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:34", "start": 1654.29, "text": "one thing around, people might be thinking, \"Well, do you need a certain level of hash rate to be viable? Like, what's the thought there?\" and I, I presume, obviously on your side, you must be doing a lot of business development and obviously trying to get miners to sign up and point their hash rate to you, but can you just explain a bit of your thoughts there on the viability question?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "27:55", "start": 1675.19, "text": "Yes. So right now, with our pool demand, we're, we've opened up the application selection, for mostly large miners. We're coordinating the hash rate as we speak, To, to go live, we have lots of interest thankfully, and we're, we're always looking for more miners, but, so yeah, so right now our strategy is to focus mostly on larger operations, this will allow us to get to a certain threshold, because with PBLS you need to hit a str- a certain threshold to be hitting a block per day, that's our, that's our, that's our, That will allow for constant payouts to the miners. So that's like a misconception that a lot of the industry has, is that PPLN doesn't have constant payouts. That's incorrect. If there is enough hash rate to be hitting one or two blocks per day, then you're looking at a constant payout per day. I think it's something around point zero zero five percent of the time you won't get a block that day, so it's very low, and that, that increases significantly by more hash rate you have, or in other words, more- Or blocks you're being found, per day. So," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "29:09", "start": 1749.34, "text": "this whole entire-- There's, there's, again, there's this misconception in the industry that PPLN doesn't pay out constantly. That's incorrect. That's only if you don't have enough hash rate. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to hit that, that threshold, that, that number," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:24", "start": 1763.53, "text": "that minimum threshold, let's say. Yes. Yes. Right. And so, let's say if there's six blocks an hour, twenty-four hours in a day, that's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:34", "start": 1773.93, "text": "Words you need one over one hundred and forty four as a percent of the network to be-- to kind of meet that minimum viable threshold, which I don't know, I can't do math, on the, on, on the podcast, but let's say point eight, point seven percent of our hash rate, something like that. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "29:49", "start": 1789.22, "text": "that's correct, that's correct." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:50", "start": 1790.44, "text": "Something like that. So as long as you can get above that threshold, then it's sort of like, okay, now we're starting to be viable and really pay out every day, and therefore the customers or the miners, in this case, are gonna be happier with that because they're getting at least one payout a day. Yes, the idea." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "30:06", "start": 1805.89, "text": "Yeah. And even if, even if it's, even if it's one block every two days, it's, it's still pretty good. but yeah, our, our aim is to hit one" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:15", "start": 1815.28, "text": "Excellent. Okay. and so I guess, do you have any idea or, I know, and I'm sure you probably saw this as well, Bob Burnett did like a study, from barefoot mining and- He, sort of showed, he was saying, \"Look how much more we're getting by...\" Now, he's obviously at Ocean, I believe he's chairman of the board or on the board at Ocean, but he was trying to show the difference between- kind of the FPSS and PPLNS worlds. I'm curious if you have any reactions on that. I guess how much is the insurance costing of, is the FPSS insurance policy costing miners?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "30:56", "start": 1855.58, "text": "Yes, that's the whole thing too. You don't, you, we, we can't, we can't, it's very difficult for us to quantify that number. It's, because it's, we don't know what, we don't know what the calculation is for FPSS pools. It's ridiculous, it's ridiculous that miners, that, that, that this industry which Where and, and, and, and free is being controlled by operators in, in God knows where, you know, creating calculations that we don't know We don't know what's going on, so we can't, we can't, we can't say. So yes, it's, it's, it's, it's very difficult for miners to actually realize, hey, we're getting paid a lot less. that, that report by Bob Burnett, is a very good one, and it's a, it's a good step forward in, in showing that PPLNS, is, is, is basically a better system for payouts for miners. However, you have to always keep, always keep, you know, So there's some, let's say, bias involved, of course, but it-- again, it's a first, it's a, it's a good f-uh, step forward. It illuminates this issue very clearly. That's very good. So, we're also working on a few benchmarking tools too at the man, we have, we've been working with, Hashlabs, to, to benchmark this, And let's see how it goes out. ultimately, we think that, Stratum v2 and PPLNS and all these things aren't, let's just say they're not gonna, you're not gonna see a ten percent increase, in, in profit. But you're gonna, you're gonna see like perhaps one percent, one point five, point five. And if you add it all up, you add up how Slice, integrates all the transaction fees, all the, blocks, if you add up that Stratum v2 creates less Shares your Bitcoin node is communicating directly with Bitcoin D, all these things add up and they get to a percentage that is higher than the other pools. That's, that's, that's the bet. That's the, that's the whole reason why I'm here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:00", "start": 1980.49, "text": "Yeah, excellent. Okay, yeah, and, and as you've also mentioned, Stratum v2 has the encryption as well, so that's another thing I've heard of, that hash rate hijacking, basically a hacker hijacking your hash rate and pointing it to some other pool, and the mining, machine owners in those cases, sometimes they didn't even know. This isn't a theoretical risk, it has happened. So that's another thing that Stratum v2, actually so-solves that issue." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "33:26", "start": 2006.43, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We actually saw a, a, it's a Sort of a different attack, but this attack would have been, let's say, way harder to pull off. We saw a DNS poisoning many years ago, in China when I was working at Poolin, the Chinese telecom, company. which works, of course, in conjunction with the government. They were, s-- you know, watching the network, and they were able to, since the data is unencrypted from the miner to the pool, they were able to very easily find out which data or, yeah, which data is coming from the miner and the, and connecting to the pool, and they just basically shut that off. So from one day, I woke up in the morning and all of our pool, basically all of our miners were offline. to the pool, and this could have been, basically, this would have been way harder to do if, if the data wasn't encrypted. So, it still can be done, but it's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:28", "start": 2067.85, "text": "It's just a little bit harder, yeah. No, much, much harder. Much harder. Yeah. That's" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "34:33", "start": 2072.52, "text": "one, that's one, that's one, example. And of hash rate hijacking, the thing is, is that these guys who are hijacking hash rate are very good at hij, at hashin, hijacking hash rate, and you don't see it. So they take a small percentage, they take a little, they skim off the top, and you don't notice it. So these, these things are, a concern for miners. Ultimately" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "34:58", "start": 2097.59, "text": "Not only giving more money, to the miners, but being, it being safe and your hash rate is yours, it should be yours." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:05", "start": 2104.84, "text": "Yeah. obvious question, what are the fees you're gonna charge? To the miners," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "35:10", "start": 2110.07, "text": "yeah. right now we have a zero percent fee, so that's straightforward. in" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:15", "start": 2114.55, "text": "intro offer, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "35:17", "start": 2116.59, "text": "Yeah, it's an intro offer, for two months, and we're, and we're also doing a founding miner deal, which is, basically a very competitive fee, lower than the rest. Afterwards, we're still working on the what the fee should be. It's probably gonna be industry standard, but, again, we're looking to grow, so, we're open Oo, negotiating the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:42", "start": 2142.01, "text": "fees. Excellent. From your perspective, what is required to be a good pool?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "35:48", "start": 2148.49, "text": "that's a good question." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "35:53", "start": 2153.01, "text": "w-well, I, I'll take, I'll take it. That's a good question. over the years, people have, you know, they- The, everyone's always told me, \"Oh, you're gonna...\" When I started telling industry veterans essentially that I wanted to create my own pool, everyone thought I was crazy, because they're like, \"Why would you want to start a new pool? It's, you know, it's basically...\" A front end nowadays with just connection, with a business deal, with an pool, like, that's it, you know, the, the, you can have a nice front end, you can have some very s-strong business developers, some good marketing, but that's it, you know, that's kind of a very stale business in other words they were saying. But I, I, I thought that was incorrect. I thought, look, man, there's trying to be two. Trying to be two brings incremental positive changes, little bit of percentage here, bit of percentage there. I think, To create more revenue to the miner, which is paramount, that is paramount. Our, our mission with DMND is to cre-is to give more Maximize revenue and decentralized Bitcoin. So a good pool is a safe pool. We're very, we're very, very careful with everything. That's why we're doing lots of testing, that's why we're, taking things in phases, that's why we decided to o-uh, do a sort of a private launch with, founding miners instead of opening it to, opening the doors to everyone because we're very careful. We want to take things slowly but surely. Every step we take has to be of Very short step. We don't, we, we can, we don't want to, mess up. So we're taking that very seriously, and that's, that's a, that's, that's a fa- that's like a pillar of any good pool, it's to have a safe, and, and, safe pool. And there's low hanging fruit, better UI, better UX, cool, cool marketing, strong business development, those are all, those are all efficiency, operational efficiency gains. But I think, I think what we bring It changes the game sufficiently. We, we have created a sufficient enough change, for it to be a viable alternative to miners, and that's what makes a good pool, allowing for miners not only to create blocks and all the good stuff that Stratum brings, but having all these set of features that sets us apart. That's what creates good." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:18", "start": 2297.92, "text": "Yeah, I, I see. and I presume in order to make it work now, you're a industry veteran here, you've been in what, over ten years now in the mining, deep in the mining world, highly connected, you've been, you know, in the room at many of these, important conversations. I guess other things that- As I understand matter for a mining pool, things like, you know, having good connectivity around the world, low latency, kind of high uptime, all these things, I, I presume for you, that's like you've already, you've already checked those boxes, you don't, you don't even have to think too hard about that or what?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "38:52", "start": 2332.26, "text": "No, well, yeah, that's actually a really good question, and, and that's one of the re- that's one of the cool features of SV2, because if the miner is actually building their own block, the- the, let's say the, distance between the miner and us, the man-- operator or our, our Bitcoin, our Bitcoin pool node it's no longer, it's no longer, like, necessary. In, in, in other words, the latency that shrami one pools have to It's a big problem. I get this a lot. A lot of, a lot of big miners, ask me, \"Hey, can you set up a proxy, a pool proxy near our, mining? Like, let's say you're, you're in Africa somewhere, and they want a, a pool node in South, in South Africa, Johannesburg, because they know that the further the pool node is from their operation, the harder it is to, or the more stale shares they will get.\" But that's no longer an issue with Stratum v2, because if they Blocks are communicating straight to their Bitcoin node, and that solves that issue. That is a huge, huge improvement in Bitcoin mining. So, you know, it's made the game, it's made it a lot easier for us to be honest with you." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:07", "start": 2407.4, "text": "Yeah. I've seen things like, the, what's it called, SRI, Stratum Reference Implementation. So can you maybe explain a little bit about? SRI contrasted with what you are doing specifically on your implementation for DMND?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "40:25", "start": 2424.51, "text": "Yeah, cool, good question. So, our co-founder is, was the lead developer at SRI, so the, the open source Stratum v2, Stratum reference implementation. he joined, we, we started DMND together, so he's essentially the best guy to build Stratum v2. since he built the open source tech, and, basically Straton reference implementation and demand, code is One of them is, let's say, the foundation. SRI is the foundation to build a pool. DMND is in production, right? That's, that's the difference. It takes It takes a con- a very concentrated and hard effort to get, you know, code that is, let's say, foundational for it, moving that to production is a whole different A whole different ball game, let's say. and we've added a whole bunch of features. That's another, that's another important thing I wanna add. we added the, the new payment system, of course, Slice. We've also, re-reworked the mempool our mempool is a cluster mempool, which, again, this goes, goes back to what I was saying earlier that the small percentage gains in every, every, every single, every single- The whole entire stack of demand has been looked into and reworked. So this pool is, I, in my opinion, the most advanced pool in the industry because even the mempool we've reworked, and this, the custom mempool essentially is a better algorithm than normal mempools, and it to not get too technical, it basically," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "42:06", "start": 2525.51, "text": "makes, allows for better transaction fees to be included in the block. So it creates a small percentage gain from the old mempool, and that's something we have, we have, integrated and is fully-- our pool is fully using a custom mempool. so the difference between SRI and DMND is that we've had, we've reworked a lot of the other features that SRI didn't. Did, does not look into, like, that's right, does not look into the mempool because mempool is a Bitcoin, core thing, but we have looked into it. We've worked, we've created, we've created a more efficient, mempool So it's, it's the, it's the addition of other features to SRI which creates difference." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:50", "start": 2569.7, "text": "Yeah, I see. a common point I've seen people talk about is People say things like, \"Well, the market has decided people want FPBS for whatever reason, right? That, that's-- I'm sure you've heard that probably a thousand times as well. That, that, I, I presume they're saying a lot of the miners out there, they really want that insurance and that they are, they are cognizant of this and they're willing to pay the price.\" Do you agree with that statement or do you think it's actually, you know, that they don't know or that they find it too difficult? Like, I guess let me put the question to you this way, why is it that so many miners have chosen FPSS rather than Stratum v2?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "43:35", "start": 2615.17, "text": "Oh, well, strategy two is, is new. That's number one. So, like, it's, it's, it's now ready. so we, we- The reason why we haven't seen Stratum B2 pools in the wild, so to speak, is because, Stratum B2 technology wasn't ready yet. so now it's ready, so that's number one. FPBS is, miners don't know. That's number one. I've, I, I, I, I've released information about, FPSS for people in S recently, and I got a lot of feedback from miners telling me, \"Hey, thank you for telling me this, 'cause I didn't know that what was going on behind. I just thought, hey, I connect my miner, I get paid, that's it.\" But actually, there's a whole entire thing going on behind there that I didn't not recognize. So, yes, a lot of, a lot of that has to do with not being known, this information not being And a, a very important thing I'd like to add here is that, you know, our, as Bitcoiners, everyone, we're all Hoping, and, and I, I, I'm positive about it, that in the future there's gonna be more transaction fees. This, this, I mean, that's, that's the whole premise of Bitcoin mining essentially, that eventually the block subsidy will stop and transaction fees will pay for The, the mining in the industry, the, the, the security of Bitcoin. So we have to, the PPLNS actually is able to reward miners for this, tr-for these transaction fees that will continue to come in. So it is, I, I think FPBS is gonna be a payment system that will be dead in the future. It won't not, no one will be FPBS in the future, no one, because once transaction fees continue to play a more important role in Bitcoin, which is already is playing a more important role, we will see that miners will say, \"Hey, what, what's going on? Well, I'm not getting paid all these transaction fees, A small amount, of that. So we'll see that change." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:44", "start": 2743.5, "text": "The lead sponsor of this show is Bold, the best place to buy, sell, and save Bitcoin. For listeners in the US, Bold lets you secure your financial future with complete peace of mind by integrating a low fee Bitcoin only brokerage with next gen multi sig vaults. With Bold, you can smash buy Bitcoin or set a DCA plan for only zero point nine nine percent fees and seamlessly deposit the Bitcoin direct to your Bold Vault. The Bold Vault is a two or three Collaborative multisig where you hold two keys and bold holds one as a redundant backup protecting against loss or theft. You can use Trezor, Ledger or Coldcard hardware wallets to spin up a bold vault in just a few minutes and the bold vault is the only collaborative custody vault available with zero monthly fees. They're also offering zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys and twenty five dollars of free Bitcoin when you buy a hundred dollars of Bitcoin or more. Try bold today and upgrade your stacking experience over at getbold dot io. And now back to the show. Yeah, good point around the, shift over time that most people, let's say, hypothesize that subsidies gonna come down, fees are gonna go up, and then they'll be coming back to the trust me bro point that we were saying earlier. Now you're having to trust, let's say, if you're an individual miner, you're trusting for more and more of your actual payout from the mining pool. So It's an interesting point that, over time maybe FPBS is on the down." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "47:08", "start": 2828.03, "text": "It will, it is, it is. You'll, you'll see, you'll see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:12", "start": 2831.82, "text": "Interesting. okay, so yeah, I think those are kind of the key questions I had on the demand pool side, but let's just talk, you know, broadly a bit about mining. any, I guess, any broad updates where you think, you know, mining has come from, where it's going, anything that you-- is really, top of your mind there?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "47:31", "start": 2850.95, "text": "Well, I'm, I'm very, I'm very, positive of the, what's going on in Africa. I see the Gridless guys, they're like Gridless and stuff, yeah? Yeah, they're doing a very good job there. I, I spoke, I've spoken to a handful of other operators doing a similar thing, and they're all working more or less together, gamma. so I'm very-- I think that's, one of the coolest things in Bitcoin mining at the moment, the whole entire African mining movement, let that's very positive because they're helping the community, right? They're, they're otherwise buying electricity that would be wasted, which is then lowering the cost of the villagers in that particular area, which allows the villagers to turn on their electricity, turn on their fridge, whatever it is, to live a normal life. So, it's, it's a great, it's a net positive, and I'd really like to see mining and, being used for a public For, for the general good. So that's, that's a, that's a huge win. In terms of the large operators in North America, there's a lot of, A lot of, let's just say, miners are, are, are, are, what's the word? buying other miners, was, was" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:55", "start": 2934.99, "text": "the word, so they're fighting other miners? No, no, they're--" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "48:57", "start": 2937.1, "text": "Oh, yeah. There's, there's a lot of, what's the word when you, when you buy a bunch of miners and you, you- Oh, acquire. Yeah. Yeah, you're acquiring. And some of them" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:05", "start": 2944.68, "text": "are like hostile acquisitions and whatever, yeah, or take- Most of them acquisitions, yeah." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "49:09", "start": 2948.67, "text": "Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of acquisitions nowadays going on," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "49:18", "start": 2957.61, "text": "in, in, in the, in We'll see how that goes, you know, we'll see how, how that, plays out. I think, when you get super big, it might, you know, cause, essentially you have a crosshair on your back, because you're very large. and if you're very large in a particular region of the world, it might cause political concerns. So the, the game for large operators is very different than what, you know, me It's small operators play, I mean, those guys have to deal with politics and whatnot, so it's, it's, we'll, we'll continue to monitor that, you know, I think, I think a lot of these large operators also are looking for pools that are, compliant and whatnot, so that's also an interesting, play. we might, we, we will see more pools that are being SOC two com-type two compliant, you know, providing all the things that these big operators, need in order to join them. and, the, there's also the movement of the small miners. So you, you're seeing a growth not only in the large operators, but also in small graders. The bid-ask movement is, is, is incredible. There have just been blocks being hit by these guys like on, almost on a weekly basis, so to speak. yeah, it's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "50:43", "start": 3043.16, "text": "cool to see." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "50:44", "start": 3044.06, "text": "It's really cool to see. and I think, I actually got four bitexes in my office running right now. Nice. yeah, they have been actually gifted to me by various- Like power mining and whatnot, and, and, OG BTC or Marshall. so yeah, so, I, I got my bit, I got my hash rate, pointed at my pool. Let's see if I hit a block. If I hit a block, I'll definitely buy you a beer. nice. but yeah, I think, I think it's important that we, we, that we," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "51:19", "start": 3079.22, "text": "you know, bring back a little bit of power to, back to the home miners, and I think we're gonna see a lot of more in-- there's a lot of interest there, a lot of tinkerers right now, but I think it's gonna become a little bit more general, and, we might see-- I think we're gonna see even more," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "51:37", "start": 3097.44, "text": "sort of whole mining equipment being made, and we also have new manufacturers coming online. We got, Bitdeer coming out with their seal miner, which is very exciting, I think, I think those guys are gonna hit it off the park, they've done it before, the CEO was co-founder of Bitmain, so I, I trust he can do it again. and we're also seeing manufacturers in the US like Block coming out with, their chip their innovative kind of design, and, both, you know, it's ultimately, again, a net positive for the industry if there's more mine, more manufacturers in the industry You know, just having a handful isn't enough. We have to-- I am a pool operator and I'm focused on the pool side of things. I can't-- the mining manufacturer game is a whole, very, very expensive game. I don't have that type of, money, but, it's, it's good, it's good. We, we, hopefully once the pool industry is decentralized sufficiently, we can shift our focus to the Mining manufacturer in China trying to decentralize or create a more fairer, system for us as Bitcoiners, and we're starting to see the, the, the be- the beginning of that. So that's, that's very, very good. I, I'm very positive with mining. I think, I think in the future we're also gonna see lots of, let's say more, not lots, but more, you know, Countries trying to mine Bitcoin or at least, being positive with Bitcoin in their country. we, we do already see like Bhutan mining Bitcoin, El Salvador, I believe. so I think," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:22", "start": 3202.25, "text": "Ethiopia, a few others, yeah, UAE, yeah, UAE, Oman," }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "53:26", "start": 3206.07, "text": "yeah. Right. There's a lot of, there's a lot of players already in the game, and I'm, I'm, I'm certain there's other countries out there who are mining Bitcoin who aren't saying anything. And, I think that will continue. And, that's good for us as pool operators if there's more hash rate coming online, it's, it's great for us." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "53:47", "start": 3226.62, "text": "Excellent. any other, I guess, trends you're seeing? Like one I've heard recently is that there's been a somewhat of a shift towards liquid cooling as opposed to air cooling. any comments on that aspect of it or?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "54:01", "start": 3241.23, "text": "Yeah, yeah. liquid cooling and water, hydro cooling, Your miners is allows you to run them way hotter or run them hard, harder, because it, it, it solves a lot of the issues that you face with heat when, when you're doing, you know, air cooled miners, but it also presents a whole entire different set of problems. You have to have clean water if you're trying hydro, a lot of this, if you're doing, liquid cooled, which is petroleum based, liquids, those things can be, let's say, not very Healthy for human beings, so you have to look into like sucking out some of that air from your facilities. So it's, so it, it, it, yes, you can run your miner harder, but then you have to consider fresh water, you have to consider Safety, you have to consider, it's much more expensive. So, it's trade-offs, it's a trade-off. I think, I think, air-cooled mining won't go away, in my opinion. I think it's gonna continue, especially in areas where, let's say, let's say in the I don't know what the term, global south. I think, mining will continue to be air cooled, and, and these machines are created with that in mind, some, most of them. So, yeah, I think, I think, I think Liquid and Hydro is useful for certain places and certain, with cer-with miners that have, The ability to provide that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:39", "start": 3338.78, "text": "Yeah. One other question around, censorship, because that's, I guess, part of, Stratum v2, the idea is to keep it decentralized. I know there are some individuals out there who are doing like monitoring. So as an example, there's a- Pseudonymous developer zerox b ten c, I think he's doing some interesting things to sort of compare, like the blocks and sort of see were any transaction censored and things like that. So, do you see it like, you know, SV2 as SV2 adoption happens, it- Sort of takes away that censorship. What do you think?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "56:14", "start": 3373.73, "text": "it's a good question. Number one, like, I'm a huge fan of, ZeroX, probably his biggest fan. read all this stuff, religiously." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "56:26", "start": 3386.26, "text": "i-i-the censorship issue, you know, as a pool oper- like if there's ten pool operators in around the globe or fifteen, and ultimately it's way less because of what I said earlier of the proxies It makes, it makes it a lot easier for government to say, \"Knock on the door and say, 'Hey, we don't want this to, to go through.'\" But if, if all the miners are the ones creating the blocks, then it makes it, makes it much more difficult for that to happen. So, it, it, it, it, look, it, it's not a panacea. It's not gonna fix all the issues. That's, that's not what I'm saying. there's still, there's still, you know, there's still of course more improvements to be had, more aspects that could be fixed and whatnot, but, it, it makes it Better. And that's what I want to do. I mean, that's, that's the technology I have that we have, and, you know, if it, if it's a step forward in the right direction, then that's what I'm, that's, that's what I That's what I want. So that's why I've done it, and that's why we're here pushing this, Stratum v2 protocol forward. ultimately in the future, when there's more Stratum v2 pools, if a Stratum v2 pool decides to- say, \"Hey, we're not accepting this block.\" The miner is able to then create, send, send their block templates to the other Stratum pool. That, that would be the-- That, that, that would be the future. That is the future we're envisioning where, let's say, someone, some Stratum pool, not us, but some other Stratum pool, decides to censor, well, that miner can just easily switch that, the block template generation and send that, those shares to, to another pool that accepts that. So It makes it, it ma-gives it a, it's a step harder for, for, for governments or any regulatory body to censor. So that's, that's good. That's, that's, that's a step in the right direction." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:25", "start": 3504.91, "text": "Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, so I guess, yeah, summarizing, we've talked about a lot of different things, but I guess- For me, the key takeaways are these two points, right? It's Stratum v2 allowing block template creation at the miner level, not just at the mining pool level, and then the payout system being PPLNS based or slice in your, version of that, as opposed to FPBS and summing together Some of the efficiencies and other components of it, does that mean miners can earn more? Maybe they'll be interested. and I think, you know, most, I think most people are interested to see some StratoMe2 adoption, so hoping for the best here. so before we let you go, any final, closing comment and where can people find you online?" }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "59:11", "start": 3551.43, "text": "For sure. So the closing comment here is that we're Focused on maximizing revenue for, for you as a miner while decentralizing Bitcoin, so you're doing a net good for the industry by mining with us. You can find me on Twitter, bitintrapreneur, or you can follow our pool at DMND underscore pool" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:34", "start": 3573.83, "text": "Great, and yeah, website is d m n d dot work. Okay. So, yeah, listeners are in the show notes, listeners, the links are in the show notes. And Alejandro, thank you for joining me." }, { "speaker": "alejandro_de_la_torre", "time": "59:43", "start": 3583.44, "text": "Thank you, Stefan. Thank you." } ] }