{ "episodeId": "SLP653", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "stephan_livera": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "guest", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "guest_2": { "name": "Guest 2", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" }, "guest_3": { "name": "Guest 3", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" }, "guest_4": { "name": "Guest 4", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" }, "guest_5": { "name": "Guest 5", "role": "guest", "tag": "GUEST" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:11", "start": 11.25, "text": "Hi everyone, and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast, brought to you by Bold. For American listeners interested to buy and sell Bitcoin, go to getbold.io. Now, for this episode, it's actually just a compilation of some shorter interviews that I took in person while at Bitcoin Oasis here in Dubai, UAE. And so this is a small- Involve only conference and, with some interesting insights to be shared in terms of the thinking around what's happening here in the UAE as well as Bitcoin more broadly. So I only got a few interviews just because I was busy that day as well with conference duties, but, the interviews I got were with Preston Pish, Suli Kobayashi, Max Hillerbrand, Siddharth Bawani, and Lara Eggenm, the organizer of the conference. So I hope you enjoy those interviews. Alright, we're here with Preston at Bitcoin Oasis, organized by Bitcoin Arabia. Now, for people who don't know, Preston, I mean, most of you do, but Preston is the founder of TIP, the Investors Podcast Network, and also a partner at Ego Death Capital. So, Preston, I guess any overall thoughts here being in the region in, the Middle East?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:18", "start": 78.15, "text": "Well, it's warm." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "01:22", "start": 81.63, "text": "no, I'm just excited to be here. I don't get to this part of the world too often, so it's, it's kinda neat to excited to talk about Bitcoin as always and, the impact that it's having all around the world. I think the thing that I'm so excited about is no matter where I go in the world, there's Bitcoiners and there's people that, culturally just kind of fit together. They're trying to create a new world of finance that's fair and, ethical, and I'm here for it. And these are my people, so I'm excited to be here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:54", "start": 113.53, "text": "Fantastic. And now we're here in April of 2025, you know, it's been 16 years in, but it seems like we're, you know, we're going through another big cycle now. It's, it feel-- That's what it feels like. I'm curious what your thoughts are on sort of how this cycle has played out compared to past cycles." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "02:11", "start": 130.84, "text": "Yeah, it sure feels like the four year cycle's dead, doesn't it? perhaps, yeah. Maybe. yeah, this one's, this one is different. There is something very strange or like nothing like the previous two that I experienced. it seems like it's, Just kinda, I don't know, grinding its way up, but not nearly as aggressively as the last two, which makes it feel like maybe this cycle might be extended or maybe we're just in a new paradigm altogether. But, yeah, I don't really know what to make of it to be quite honest with you, Stefan. It's, it is definitely different from, compared to the other cycles we've been in." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:52", "start": 171.62, "text": "And I'm curious, I think one thing, if you look back at past cycles, right? Twenty seventeen was like shitcoin ICOs, twenty twenty-one was like DeFi and NFTs. Is the, is this the cycle of Bitcoin ETFs and Bitcoin treasury companies and Bitcoin strategy companies?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "03:05", "start": 185.13, "text": "Yeah, it almost seems like, it, it maybe even like borrowing and lending on Wall Street would" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "03:14", "start": 194.11, "text": "A year or two. So what that means for, you know, typically what we've experienced is there's so much hype and so much excitement that pours into the market, it overextends itself, and then you have a Massive consolidation of like eighty percent down in dollar terms, from how high it, it went, and this, I just don't know what to expect because some of the, some of the people that are coming into the space, I would like to think that they've learned lessons of the past, but they probably won't, and they probably will overextend and, and make similar mistakes, but like, it doesn't feel like we're anywhere near that right now with where, we're at in twenty twenty-five, April twenty twenty-five. But that doesn't mean it can't get there quick. So I don't know if that's a good answer. Yeah, sure. But I think" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:02", "start": 242.01, "text": "let's, let's touching on that, I think leverage is a topic that, you know, in past cycles, people have gotten wrecked, of course, the classic sort of hundred x on BitMEX or whatever, even last cycle, those, you know, Celsius and BlockFi and things like that. But is there a sense in which it's more mature this time? Are there, let's say, professional finance managers who are managing with a leverage" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "04:27", "start": 266.77, "text": "That it's gonna be more professional and understood, and they're not gonna do crazy things like that. But unfortunately, I think that, I think the cultural mindset of the legacy system, where everything's fractional reserved, everything's just borrow as much as you can and then go buy real things with all this borrowed money, I think that cultural, You know, tactic is gonna be applied to Bitcoin yet again, but just at a higher level. And, and, and this isn't me being a pessimist, this is me just looking at the incentives and like what everybody's used to doing, and I suspect they're probably gonna try to play some of those games again, and I hope that they don't, I hope that they can learn from all the mistakes that this community has already experienced time and time again. And, and maybe they will, maybe they won't, but I'm kind of tending more towards the pessimistic. Stephan, and I'm not a pessimist, I'm really an optimist, but I'm just I'm not bullish on Wall Street figuring it out on the first go, I guess." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:32", "start": 332.19, "text": "Right. And look, it's-- There are different levels of this. There are people who are doing, let's say on-chain finance things. Like, as I know you're, you're an investor with DebitFi, right? So you're an advisor with DebitFi. Yeah, I'm an advisor with DebitFi. Right. So you're an advisor with DebitFi, and DebitFi is trying to do this in a way where it's non-rehypothecated" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "05:58", "start": 357.75, "text": "Yeah, I-- so there's a reason I'm an advisor at Debitfi and have admired, Max Kai and his team for quite a while, because he's the only guy, really, that's been in the game in the borrowing and lending space with-- through multiple cycles and hasn't blown up or have any of his customers, blow up. And the reason why is because he never, He never does any type of fractional reserve, he doesn't commingle funds, it's peer-to-peer borrowing and lending, and it's over-collateralized. So if you're gonna do borrowing and lending in Bitcoin, in my opinion, you have to do it that way to do it without compromising anybody that's, that's in that, tree of, you know, both parties and, and anybody acting as a, a custodian of the collateral. So When we look at Wall Street and are they gonna adopt that, that way of doing and borrowing and lending? Probably" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:54", "start": 413.61, "text": "not." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "06:54", "start": 414.21, "text": "Probably not. They need to, because I think anybody who doesn't do it that way is gonna learn some really, really hard, painful lessons. So," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:04", "start": 423.85, "text": "yeah. Interesting. I mean, as you mentioned, this, this is, let's say the, the on-chain sort of version of this, the non-rehypothecation form of it, and then you have the treasury and leverage companies, that are, that are just sort of doing it more in the trad-fi Let's say, and you could say, let's say the, the non-rehypothecation style is perhaps safer in certain contexts, but maybe I wonder if the volume is gonna be larger in the TradFi world, because most of the wealth is still in the TradFi world, right? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "07:34", "start": 453.81, "text": "Yeah, and I think you, you also have an interesting dynamic where you now have ETFs And you're gonna have the rehypothecation of the, of the ETF, certificates, which is like a derivative on top of a derivative of the underlying Bitcoin. So like, what does that mean for- Yeah. you know, Wall Street crunching the numbers and realizing that, you know, it's been overextended. I don't know, but yeah, I do know there's a lot of games that Wall Street likes to play in a fractional reserve, undercollateralized kind of way, and I just, it, in my opinion, that's incompatible with how Bitcoin operates. It's just a, a function of how long it takes for the market to realize that, that it's been overextended or that there's people out there swimming naked." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:20", "start": 499.67, "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "08:20", "start": 500.31, "text": "And," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:21", "start": 501.39, "text": "but then- And let, let me put it, put the question to you this way. Does that mean you shouldn't allocate to any of these treasury companies at all, or is it more like maybe you think, okay, I'm a hodler and I'm gonna keep, maybe call it eighty percent or ninety percent of my stack in my cold storage multisig, but maybe ten percent or twenty percent is where I might think about, okay, do I wanna have an investment in treasury companies or these kinds of things? Or, or how do you-- or do you, or you just, are you just" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "08:44", "start": 523.83, "text": "more like, no first of all, you have to have relatively high assurance that you can invest in a company, let's just use MicroStrategy as an example, that can actually outperform Bitcoin Michael's demonstrated that, that he can do that. Whether he can do it consistently, that's a whole other question. But for me, I would say, I think he can. I think that he can potentially do that. In a per share basis, I think he can continue to accumulate more Bitcoin, and so then the question comes, if I can buy that at a decent price, the premium over the NAV, right, that, that's gonna allow me to be profitable in that trade in Bitcoin terms, how much of that from a position size should I own versus just owning cold," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "09:37", "start": 576.84, "text": "cold And part of that calculation, in the Kelly criterion is like, how much more of a percentage am I expecting to get by owning this versus that? And if it's not much, which I would argue in this case, it's slightly better, what you find is in that Kelly criterion calculation Your percentage of owning that should be really low, especially considering Bitcoin's, you know, past performance. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:03", "start": 603.33, "text": "So we're talking under five percent, this kind of thing? Yeah, you're" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "10:06", "start": 605.51, "text": "probably-- If I was just gonna play it safe, I'd say you're definitely under ten percent in portfolio sizing relative to the rest of it being in cold storage Bitcoin. So people who don't understand that math or what I'm talking about, I would just--" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:19", "start": 619.06, "text": "Right. The safest thing is just self-custody." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "10:21", "start": 621.44, "text": "Probably stick to self-custody. I would tell you, research the Kelly criterion and what That's all about, and, and then you gotta really, you gotta really be able to perform economic calculation and security analysis, yeah, for a company like MicroStrategy and be able to understand like what the value is, what buying at an appropriate valuation is, and stuff like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:42", "start": 642.25, "text": "that. Right. And to some extent, it requires maybe not perfect timing the cycle, but your entry point really matters, right? Like if you get in at a good entry point on those kinds of things, then yeah, it can work. But just like in Bitcoin itself, if you time your entry really poorly, you don And you're not long term with your thinking, you could buy the top and then spend a few years underwater, and that, that can be very painful, and often people buy the top and then sell because they're panicked. So, I guess price, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:09", "start": 668.91, "text": "Price is what you pay and value is what you get." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:11", "start": 670.93, "text": "Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:11", "start": 671.41, "text": "So, you know, Buffett, I'm a hardcore study or a Buffett, I know that he's not a real popular guy in this space, but, you know, you look at MicroStrategy, do I own it? Yep, I do own it," }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:26", "start": 686.24, "text": "The stock price was below the NAV value of the Bitcoin on, on the balance sheet." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:31", "start": 691.35, "text": "I see, yeah. So like, maybe in a bull cycle, MNAV goes to these multiples, and in a bear cycle, it may go down to one or even below one, as it did in previous, in the previous bear market. So important to, you know, for people to understand the way to think about these things. anything else that you find interesting in the world of Bitcoin?" }, { "speaker": "stephan_livera", "time": "11:49", "start": 709.45, "text": "I mean, at the end of the day, it's freedom tech. People might come to make a bunch of money or they're attracted to the speculative aspects of it, but if they hang around long enough, they're actually here for the freedom tech. And, boy, that's an exciting thing because when you look around the world and you look at how corrupted a lot of these governments have become, especially from like a free speech and just free and open commerce and, just not having your wealth stolen from you, Bitcoin Bitcoin is the promise and the hope and all of that, and it's fun to talk about the micro-strategy. As a, as a security analyst and somebody who loves just studying markets, I love talking that stuff, but what I'm really passionate about is the freedom tech that's underneath the hood of all of it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:34", "start": 754.47, "text": "Absolutely, a, a fair point to make, and I agree with you on the freedom tech. so yes, the listeners check out Preston's work. He's at the, the Investors podcast, and he is, a partner with Ego Death Capital. Preston, thank Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by CoinKites dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way these work is you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on those, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now, you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network. work using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Bep2 Desktop or Nunchuck as a few examples. Now, you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices such as passphrases, you can use seed x or my favorite is multi-signature. Now, if you're starting in a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. But I believe these devices are great at helping secure your coins. Especially as you start to migrate up into multi-signature security. But don't be disheartened or don't be, scared away. They are accessible, and I think you actually do learn about Bitcoin in the process. So to get yours, go to coinkite dot com, use code Livera to get a discount on your cold card. This episode brought to you by Galloy. They are building banking software for the Bitcoin age. So if you are with a bank, a fintech, or a startup looking to offer some kind of Bitcoin product, whether that is a Bitcoin collateralized loan Deposit accounts or payments, Galloy can help you. Their latest product is called LANA. It is a loans management platform, and you can use this to come to market quickly and offer a loans or Bitcoin collateralized lending product for your customers. Now, Galloy have a lot of experience in the space. They started with Blink Wallet in twenty twenty, and they've since grown this to become a community favorite over time, and so they have a lot of experience making things work in a secure, reliable, and scalable way. So if you need assistance coming to Market quickly with a Bitcoin banking product such as lending or deposits or payments. Talk to the team at Galloy, you can email them, the email is biz at galloy dot io, or go to the website galloy dot io. And now, back to the show. Hi guys, I'm here with Souley Kabyashi, he's the founder of Neo Wealth. Souley, tell us a little bit about what you're working on and, what are the kind of key things you're seeing nowadays?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "15:14", "start": 914.35, "text": "Wow. So, I cover Africa and the Middle East, basically helping Bitcoin companies work in the market in Africa and the Middle East, and helping non-Bitcoin companies getting on board on Bitcoin, as well as I'm the nation state advisor for Janthree's for Middle East and Africa. lately, just came from Cameroon this morning, it was very, very interesting from really Let's say, senior executives in the countries, interested, understanding Bitcoin, boomers we think in the West aren't getting it, but they're getting it in Africa. how I see things. Well Okay, don't really, I, I, I'll, you'll have a lot of pushback on this, but like conferences in the West are about number go up and Africa Bitcoin conferences Or more Bitcoin. Right. So the last, forty-eight hours in Cameroon, like twenty-two years old hackathon, students just Broke the Mobile Money main app of the country, developing a bridge from Lightning to Mobile Money in twenty-four hours. So this is what's happening," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:23", "start": 982.97, "text": "all around Africa, yeah. I mean, it's interesting to see. So, what, what kinds of people are you seeing reach out? And also, you were mentioning you're getting even, some Nostra inbound. Can you talk to us about that?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "16:33", "start": 992.91, "text": "Oh, yeah. first off, I started the first, Arabic Nostra relay, so I, I couldn't not to say nostrarabia dot com, so please feel free to connect. yeah, I mean, I got suspended in September on X, on X, yeah. Luckily, for me to look at Nostr more seriously, and I did, and it's been really amazing, fantastic, from the good mornings to the good evenings, the engagements, like from a personal point of view, it's really refreshing. I said like, I think on X, it's like living in the city, and on Noster, it's like living in the mountains. it's really nice, it's really cool. from a business perspective, the, like, we spoke about this, like, the prospects you got, you get on Noster is Much better than X, with no spammers, no really, fiat Web3, I mean, there are some, but like, yeah, it was really, really interesting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:29", "start": 1048.66, "text": "Yeah, fantastic. And so what kinds of things are people reaching out to you for? Like, are they asking for self-custody advice? Are they asking for how to get started with Bitcoin? Are they looking to take Bitcoin payments? So" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "17:39", "start": 1058.8, "text": "it's like, mainly family offices, like Oasis Bitcoiners were really into the technicals, right? But in Africa mainly and the Middle East, when I say Middle East, I say like outside Dubai, we need to keep it more simple, like they want Bitcoin Okay. So let's get them Bitcoin first, like manufacturers in Africa, okay? Like big high net worth individuals, instead of like pitching, Bitcoin to buy Bitcoin They own manufacturing sites, right? Excess energy, so let's start mining Bitcoin. So they start mining Bitcoin, transforming the cost centers into profit centers, and then they start getting, seeing some, Profit coming in. So you're seeing, yeah, acquisition then custody. Okay, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:24", "start": 1104.2, "text": "you're actually seeing a different pathway. It's not the typical buy Bitcoin for the store of value, you're seeing it more like the energy aspect of it." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "18:31", "start": 1110.52, "text": "I mean, this is how I started pitching it for Africa, this is how I, the word of mouth is doing it, but in Africa, it's like there's- Like in Cameroon, for example, the perception Bitcoin is crypto, they don't even know any difference. They don't know what is, what is what. so yeah, they come in for crypto and they end up With Bitcoin only." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:57", "start": 1137.21, "text": "yeah. Fantastic. And then what about on the, kind of merchant aspect or the taking payment processing Bitcoin, using Bitcoin? Are you seeing much interest on, on that front?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:08", "start": 1147.72, "text": "They have, but they're not having the interest of the BTC Pay server more complex integrations. they're, they want it. They've been using the wallet, I think Blink is doing a great job. with their GitHub, open source. What else? What else? What else? They're just, frankly, using their own like blue wallets sometimes, which also works. Right. So this is what it's like, Africa, South Africa, what works, right? now comes more complex, more advanced, where, yes, there, we're trying to pitch BTC PayServer to a proper like- Accounting, et cetera. But," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:43", "start": 1183.39, "text": "yeah. I see. Yeah. So I guess you're starting them on something simple like a Blink, and then Blink has support for things like a Lightning address and things like that." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:50", "start": 1190.36, "text": "Actually, we use Aqua first. Aqua. Okay. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:54", "start": 1193.7, "text": "So what are, what are you finding with Aqua in terms of like users, do they like it?" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "19:58", "start": 1197.58, "text": "They love it. Just because they have that flexibility of liquid as well, but also there's always options of like, there's some new updates for Aqua, I'm not gonna ruined the, the updates coming up, but like the integrations that Aqua, can do or is doing it, plus it's fully, full custody, it helps. Yeah. I mean, to" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:20", "start": 1219.96, "text": "be fair, I would say it's considered, you know, L-LBTC is not self-custodial in the sense that the Bitcoin is held by the co- by the federation. Just Bitcoin is, yeah, it is. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "20:29", "start": 1228.83, "text": "Blink is it? Yeah. However, I do use Blink, depending on the personal-- Those are the only two wallets that I use and onboard people with. But absolutely, I'm a fan of it. Ex- Ex- Ex- dancers on the streets, I-- at night, I'd had that in, in Brussels once where- what worked was the world of Satoshi, just because of, right? Yeah. So it depends who you're talking to. Yeah. Blink is great, for the different reasons, I love their Vault 12, option, yeah, and the stable sat for the merchants, et cetera, yes." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:00", "start": 1259.78, "text": "right. So on the blink side, it's things like stable sats, and then on the Aqua side, it's more like let them, if they want to, flip to Tether and then flip back into Bitcoin when they're ready, that kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:08", "start": 1268.01, "text": "Mainly, no, mainly Aqua for the custody. Okay, right. For the, for the seed phrase." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:12", "start": 1272.32, "text": "Gotcha. Just because it's a one twelve word seed thing and you're, yeah. So you, you have the" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:17", "start": 1277.33, "text": "phone, you can get an OKC phone number, you can do it. Yes, but you still have a phone, you still have an email." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:23", "start": 1283.3, "text": "Right. Yeah. Okay, interesting. Okay, so it's just interesting angles, different, ways of kind of onboarding people. There's" }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:29", "start": 1289.36, "text": "no one way on the-- Yeah. We want to be like, you go on the, like, let's say" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:34", "start": 1293.96, "text": "you're tool agnostic, you choose the right tool for the job aspect, yeah." }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:37", "start": 1296.82, "text": "Let's not let them get on the-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:40", "start": 1300.11, "text": "Yeah, fantastic. Okay. Well, where can people find you? No sir. All right. All right. Well, we'll put the links in the show notes and, that's it. Thank you, Silvi. Thanks," }, { "speaker": "guest_2", "time": "21:49", "start": 1308.59, "text": "Stefan. Thanks, man." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:50", "start": 1310.07, "text": "Hi guys, I'm here with Max Hillerbrand. Max is now working with Sound Money Solutions. So, Max, just give us a quick overview, what, what is Sound Money Solutions?" }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "21:59", "start": 1319.15, "text": "Yeah, we're helping people to set up their own self custody, right? We all know that holding your own keys is how you hold your own Bitcoin, and therefore we make it sure that you have the, the technologies, the hardware and the software and, and the know-how, to be secure in this. Right? So we've curated a set of hardware, from multiple Flags, full nodes, a graphene OS, a Pixel phone, and everything, the, the full stack basically." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:25", "start": 1345.29, "text": "Yeah. Okay. So what's some of the latest in self-custody innovation and some of the latest hot topics that you're focusing on nowadays in terms of, you know, the research and selection products? Yeah, I, I" }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "22:37", "start": 1356.84, "text": "think, multi-vendor multi-sig is, is a really cool thing that, that now with PSPTs and output descriptors, we, we really have a, a nice suite of different hardware providers that work nicely with each and, and that just takes your security to the next level, right? If, if anyone com-pro-provider is compromised, your stack is still secure, right? So I think that's, that's quite interesting and, and backup solutions also improved substantially, right? Here again, output descriptors, are, are key innovation here, but also from your secret sharing, for example, to have a, a threshold of backups that are needed to get to your keys, and I would include the Seedhammer, a really cool new hardware, open source both on the to engrave, with a CNC mill basically, your, your seed or, or output descriptors or QR codes into steel. so with all of that, that's, that's a great holistic stack, no?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:31", "start": 1411.1, "text": "Excellent. And so what kind-- what kinds of customers are you seeing so far? Are they just regular plebs? Are they corporates? Are they high net worth? give us a, give us a bit of a flavor there." }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "23:41", "start": 1421.4, "text": "Yeah, I think it's, definitely, primarily focused on, on high net worth individuals and corporations or, my family owned, offices are, are the ones who, who see the, the need for, for protection of wealth, and have the time and to, to really look into it. And so those, those are the key areas that we're focusing at the moment." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:04", "start": 1443.72, "text": "And so those new people coming in to you, are they people who are, let's say, deep down the rabbit hole, they've been hodling for a long time, or are they actually relatively new and are they actually learning a bit about Bitcoin as they go?" }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "24:15", "start": 1455.18, "text": "it's a bit of both," }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "24:20", "start": 1459.75, "text": "2013, et cetera, but they never upgraded their stack since 2013, so to say. So they still use old offline laptops, you know, to, to hold their keys and, and have their, you know, setup this way, and simply never upgraded it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:34", "start": 1474.16, "text": "Yeah. So what would you say are some of the common mistakes or common pitfalls that people are making if they've got an old security setup that they haven't updated?" }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "24:43", "start": 1483.15, "text": "well, for one, the, the firmware has to be updated frequently, right? So making sure that the operating system is up to date, because even a couple months old software can have security vulnerabilities that aren't fixed in, in more recent versions of the firmware. Right? So, just keeping your software and hardware up to date is quite critical, and you're just missing out, I think that's the key point, right? You have big opportunity costs of, of no longer being on the cutting edge, right? We now have, for example, Hardware with multiple secure elements, right, in a, in a slimmed down package, with a full keyboard, et cetera, and then a large screen, that's just so much better. We couldn't have dreamed of something like this, ten years ago, right? and this was something that only, the military or, or like, corporate C-suite, people had this type of access to such secure hardware, and now you can get it for a couple hundred sat, right? So that's, that's incredible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:39", "start": 1538.55, "text": "Yeah, great Bitcoin more broadly, what are some of the things you're watching, like outside of the, let's say, the self custody world, what's interesting to you?" }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "25:49", "start": 1549.39, "text": "Well, I think the current debates on upgrades to the, the, the stack machine of Bitcoin, right? The, the script updates is, is really interesting because there's a lot of, fine tuning of existing protocols like the Lightning Network, that can be done, but also vast amounts of innovation for, for example, ARC or, or other second layer protocols, specifically zero knowledge proofs, that enable fine- Really a two-way Peck sidechain with very minimized trust assumptions, which is extremely exciting. and, and plus the entire concept of, more advanced scripts for protecting your wealth. Right? So these are, for example, time-locked vaults where after a certain time, you have a decay of the, the multisig, or just different keys get to spend your Bitcoin at different times, making the, the loss of, of keys less troublesome. and, and vaults are another concept that really take your security to the next level. so this is all- So quite, quite interesting what, we continue to innovate in the Bitcoin area." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:47", "start": 1606.53, "text": "I see. So some of that is, let's say, miniscript enabled, and some of that is just generic, scripting enabled, things like OpVault or CCV and other things like that." }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "26:56", "start": 1615.82, "text": "Yeah, exactly. Especially with Taproot and, and miniscript, we really have a whole new toolset to make much more complex scripts, that, that wouldn't really have been reasonable in, in the legacy world, so to say, simply because of privacy reasons, you have to transaction, a-and, and cost efficiency, right? Because, a sophisticated script can be quite large, with numerous spending conditions, and you have to pay for that for every spend, even in the happy path. But with Taproot specifically, the happy path is just a single sig, right? Which is, which is fantastic, which can even be a, a multi-sig inside that single signature, and you have all of the additional spending conditions hidden behind in the tap tree, so that, that just leads to, privacy improvements and efficiency improvements. And that means people are much more confident and, and willing to use these more sophisticated scripts. Excellent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:48", "start": 1667.89, "text": "Okay. So look, let's finish it up. Any tips for people to think about with, when it comes to self-custody? What are some tips that they should keep in mind to make sure that they have best practices?" }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "28:00", "start": 1680.14, "text": "Well, go through the threat vectors in the sense of what do you have, and what you want to protect, right? And from whom do you want to protect it from? and what are your allies, like who can help you in this protection? and if you have, if you're aware of these, then you can really start to design a custom self-custody protocol for yourself, and ensure that your stack is secure, not just now, but in the future, and, and also that it is inheritable, right, to you" }, { "speaker": "guest_3", "time": "28:30", "start": 1709.86, "text": "You actually lose your Bitcoin, at, at the time of passing. so be aware of, of some of the pitfalls and, and just keep studying. There's a lot of information out there, there's a lot of, professionals that can help you with, with these questions." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:42", "start": 1721.7, "text": "so stay curious. Excellent. That's Max Hillerbrand from Sound Money Solutions. Thank you, Max. Thanks, Stefan. The lead sponsor of this show is Bold, the best place to buy, sell, and save Bitcoin. For listeners in the US, Bold lets you secure your financial future with complete peace of mind by integrating a low fee Bitcoin only brokerage with next gen multisig vaults. With Bold, you can smash buy Bitcoin or set a DCA plan for only zero point nine nine percent fees and seamlessly deposit the Bitcoin direct to your Bold Vault. The Bold Vault is a two or three collaborative multisig where you hold two keys and Bold holds one as a re- Redundant backup, protecting against loss or theft. You can use Trezor, Ledger, or cold card hardware wallets to spin up a Bold Vault in just a few minutes, and the Bold Vault is the only collaborative custody vault available with zero monthly fees. They're also offering zero fees on your first ten thousand dollars of Bitcoin buys and twenty-five dollars of free Bitcoin when you buy a hundred dollars of Bitcoin or more. Try Bold today and upgrade your stacking experience over at getbold.io. And now, back to the show. Okay, I'm here with Siddharth Barwani. He is the CO CEO of JetKing. So for people who don't know, JetKing is the, the first company in India or public company in India doing the Bitcoin treasury strategy. So, Siddharth, tell us a little bit about yourself and, you know, what your thoughts are so far at the event." }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "30:02", "start": 1801.97, "text": "Sure, sure, sure, yeah. So I'm Siddharth Bharwani, I'm, Joint Managing Director and CFO of JetKing. long story short, with our Bitcoin treasury company, we, we went in and made an investment in Bitcoin in" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "30:17", "start": 1817.1, "text": "Regulation, see what was going on, and in twenty twenty-four took a position and said, \"We're the Bitcoin treasury company.\" we've done our first raise, we're looking to raise a lot more, and then just keep buying Bitcoin. event so far is amazing. I like people who talk Bitcoin, and Bitcoin only is the preference. And yeah, so far it's all good." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:35", "start": 1835.06, "text": "Fantastic. Can you give us a" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "30:36", "start": 1835.9, "text": "context of like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:37", "start": 1837.0, "text": "the size of the company and the size of the Bitcoin stack so far? Sure," }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "30:40", "start": 1840.44, "text": "sure, sure, sure. So we're-- The, the Balance sheet, and we're looking to scale that to a hundred and fifty in the next six months. That's the first milestone. we're still contemplating different instruments in India because it's slightly-- the regulation is still slightly unfolding there, but the idea is to go all out once the first raise is done. Fantastic. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:04", "start": 1863.96, "text": "so what other available-- so on the equity side, people talk about like ATM and on the debt side, convertible notes and things like this. What are some of the instruments available in India to a public company?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "31:16", "start": 1875.5, "text": "So we're keeping it super- Straightforward in the first one. So what we are doing is a CCPS, which is a compulsory convertible preference share, and then a CCD, which is a compulsory convertible debenture. And again, you can't be as creative as Japan or America in India, and the idea is to start with one, see how the regulations respond, and then go to the other one. So we'll see what all and how creative we can get, but the idea is to start one by one and then scale it up from there. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:42", "start": 1902.06, "text": "And as I understand, part of this strategy involves because you're And then that turns the volatility of Bitcoin into the volatility of the company shares, and that in turn creates this implied volatility, which then the options traders, they like that, right? So are you seeing that dynamic yet in your company?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "32:02", "start": 1921.69, "text": "not so far because it's small, like the, the, the treasury is small right now, but eventually, so there's two exchanges in India, right? So National Stock Exchange and Bombay Stock Exchange. The FX and the derivatives play is much more, high frequency in the Na- National Stock Exchange. We're not listed there, but- We will be listed there in the next six months, and once we get there with, on the national stock exchange, the idea is to come up with these different derivative instruments to tap into the volatility. Like Sailor says, volatility is vitality, right? And, we end up, we end up Using it to our advantage at a later stage." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:36", "start": 1955.93, "text": "Right. Yeah, and as I understand, as you say, it's early days, but it's interesting to see this is happening in countries all around the world. Right. And I guess the skeptic might have said, \"Oh, look, there's only room for one big player, it's only micro strategy and small, it won't work for smaller companies.\" What would you say to that?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "32:51", "start": 1971.09, "text": "I think there's room for everyone. There's about six thousand listed companies in India. I am talking to twelve of them actively right now to just start it as an investment, right? Like, I mean, so there's, there's a play in Bitcoin Treasury, which is a Bitcoin Treasury strategy and a Bitcoin Treasury operation, right? Operation is taking your equity, taking debt, and then One is the Bitcoin treasury strategy, where you just take it as an investment position, yeah, just hold it, give it a contribution, allocate one, two, five, ten, fifteen percent to that treasury, and just hold it for the long term. So these different, models will kind of evolve as we go, but I think there's room for everyone. Bitcoin is-- was built by the community, and it just should be expanded to the community further." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:35", "start": 2015.26, "text": "Excellent. And what has the reaction been, in the Indian market and, I guess, from the Indian regulators? What are" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "33:43", "start": 2023.01, "text": "The market, so since we announced the strategy, that the share price has been four X, and we've not even started, we've not even-- it's not even gone zero to one, right? And, regulators are, wanting to know more about virt-virtual digital assets, they wanna see how this whole play gets into equity, and, so far there hasn't been any resolution, so far they've been super open to what we are doing, and they like what we're doing, and they wanna see how rapidly we can scale it from" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "34:11", "start": 2051.47, "text": "here. So, so" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:13", "start": 2053.01, "text": "I think the other interesting play with these companies is that they can tap a cheaper form of capital than individuals can. General, like a normal everyday retail individual can't access this kind of cheap capital. So do you have any comment on the kinds of rates of, you know, the cost of capital for you as a company to do this strategy versus an individual?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "34:32", "start": 2072.4, "text": "So in India, it is the cost of capital is, is high, right? So you, you, you can raise capital between, unlike Japan or America, the capital raise is, between five to nine percent and sometimes- For corporates, it's higher. I, I personally don't want to-- I, I don't think, looking at debt is the right way of going for it first. you can structure out businesses which has good enough cash flows and then pump that back into it. So we don't-- we, we aren't looking to use very aggressive debt in the first stages, and much later when, when the big, the company is slightly bigger, we look at what shapes and forms we can use, but at this stage, we're not looking at it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:09", "start": 2108.65, "text": "Yeah. And I MNAV and, you know, this idea, it's-- at least the way I'm understanding it, it's, I, I get the sense that it, it's probably gonna expand during bull runs and then contract during bear markets or kind of consolidation phases. Correct. How are you seeing that, or do you see it differently, or how do you see that?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "35:27", "start": 2127.48, "text": "No, so fundamentally, I, I, I think, because of the scarcity of the asset class, right? Because of the way Bitcoin is structured, ultimately in the long term, MNAV is gonna be" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "35:42", "start": 2142.05, "text": "one Or it is the multiple that a company gets in the future. So foundationally, companies who acquire more Bitcoin and have it on their balance sheet, their MNAV is going to skyrocket, I personally feel. there will be a sense of maturity in that MNAV, but I think it's one of those KPIs where Bitcoin per share, MNAV about your Bitcoin and the holdings that you have are super important to keep your people look on, and that helps you look at your capital. So of course, the bull bear theory is on ongoing, but ultimately we're here for the long run, right? Thirty years, forty years, and we'll see a lot of runs happening in that case. So the idea is to keep generating businesses that are generating cash flow and fiat, and then keep buying Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:25", "start": 2185.39, "text": "Yeah, I think, I think it makes sense. I think it's more just, it's more like, this is what I would-- If somebody is new and they think, \"Oh, this is just like easy leverage,\" well, yes, but, you know, you have to also be-- and you need to have a long" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:42", "start": 2201.72, "text": "What, what do, do you have a view on where, how quickly other companies are gonna copy you?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "36:49", "start": 2208.76, "text": "So I think it's a lot to do with advocacy, right? And it's a lot to do with the fact that people are thinking that legality is still a concern in India when it's not. It's a hundred percent legal a-asset. There's a massive infrastructure around your, exchanges, and people just keep thinking about the fact that it is slightly illegal right now. So I think it start with advocacy. I think we've kind of become the flag bearers of that But in India, we're talking to so many companies, we're talking to so many individuals to tell them about Bitcoin as an asset class, firstly, and, we ourselves are focusing on three levers, right? Which is, which is, the treasury company becoming a Bitcoin learning company, and this is not only for, individuals, for corporates as well. Like we're partners with Bitcoin for corporations, for example, and we'll be conducting master classes for like a good set of people to understand this. So I think, the idea is to see it, There is a slightly slower market for adoption, but, I think once it opens up, it's just gonna be wildfire. So when I say opens up, when there's one positive word from the regulators, say RBI, for example, to say that, okay, fine, Bitcoin is-- this is how we see it, I think it's just gonna catch on. It's gonna be like the, the smartphone boom or the data boom that had happened in India, and it's just gonna be wildfire. Right." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:05", "start": 2284.91, "text": "Everyone will just get into it. also, we were ta-- we Metrics, things like BTC yield, Bitcoin per share, d- yeah, I, I obviously I assume you're across all of these, but what do you see as the useful metrics? Do you, do you think we need other metrics? What are some of the important Bitcoin metrics that a public company should be talking about and assessing?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "38:29", "start": 2308.59, "text": "Sure. So I think the entire metrics or the KPIs that have been built are fairly new. It's, it's what Strategy kind of laid out, MetaPlanet is tapping into it very aggressively, and, the, the point is that, We have different shapes and forms coming in, like what we spoke about MNAV or even Bitcoin per share. But right now, that is, that is one of the, the only most important KPIs that we're looking at is Bitcoin per share. How much Bitcoin per share can we allocate to our shareholders, and that's one of the top two that we're focusing on. So it's an evolutionary piece, it, we will see it happen, as we go, and whichever other KPI is suitable, we, we look at how Bitcoin kind of taps" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:06", "start": 2346.37, "text": "into it. Yeah. And it is That, you know, yeah, we talk about MNAV and how maybe it might be high or whatever, high or low, and it'll move around, obviously. But remember, there's also this fundamental point where there's a lot of, Very stretched PE ratios, like Preston was mentioning, how even just in normal equities, PE ratios are very, very high. So there's just a big, big market out there, for more capital to flow into Bitcoin, isn't it?" }, { "speaker": "guest_4", "time": "39:34", "start": 2374.12, "text": "Totally. So the, so these ratios are all, I don't, I don't know if the word is speculative, but it is all, it is speculative, so to speak, right? And, and, all of these, ratios get a performance over time, and even in the case of Bitcoin, ultimately, they will The Bitcoin performance, as and when Bitcoin appreciates and goes higher, these ratios end up improving. So that's where we see it. Fantastic. Well, I think" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:01", "start": 2400.96, "text": "that's a good spot to finish there. listeners, check it out. Siddharth, the CFO of JetKing. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you so much. Alright, I'm, I'm back with Lara. Lara is the organizer, or the, let's say the lead organizer, co-founder of Bitcoin Arabia, the, team who put on this event, Bitcoin Oasis. So, Lara," }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "40:22", "start": 2422.37, "text": "Yeah, I'm super happy with it. You know, when you organize events, a lot of things can go wrong, and everything went, really smooth, so I'm very happy with the people that are here, with how, things are running. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:34", "start": 2434.42, "text": "yeah, it's" }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "40:35", "start": 2435.02, "text": "going very well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:36", "start": 2435.92, "text": "And now this is an invite-only conference, so it's more of a smaller, atmosphere, but, what's, what are the main differences you notice there by doing that?" }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "40:47", "start": 2446.98, "text": "It's, it's really a boutique conference in that sense, so we rather want to keep it small than having 1,000 people and, and have a good quality of, of the attendees so that the conversations that you are having at Bitcoin Oasis really give you a lot of value. That's, the goal that we are pursuing here. Yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:06", "start": 2466.26, "text": "And, I guess this started last year, right? Like it was, and then, how have things changed over the, you know, over the year or two?" }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "41:16", "start": 2475.73, "text": "Well, it's, yeah, things are really going very fast in this region. I think the GCC, they're pushing hard on, on Bitcoin and crypto in general And, yeah, things are moving very fast. We have, we see a lot of good signal from institutional investors from the region, and," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:36", "start": 2495.54, "text": "yeah. Yeah. Any updates you can share for people, in terms of what's happening locally? Is there anything, on the regulatory side, on the government side that, you know, is, worthwhile sharing?" }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "41:48", "start": 2508.14, "text": "Yeah. So, A lot of, companies they struggle to get licensed by VARA. We had a panel on, on regulation, that was touching on this. So, yeah, things are sometimes running slow, but they can also run very fast It really depends a bit where you are, where you're setting up, and we see good signal from Bahrain. We heard today that, also in Saudi, they might push, more towards, reg- Regulating crypto even, so that would be super interesting if, they would also push in that direction. So, yeah, a good, a lot of good signal, but, yeah, you know Things can change very fast in this region of the world." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:27", "start": 2547.02, "text": "Yeah. Okay. and what are you expecting for the future with, well, actually, what, what are the, what are the main goals with Bitcoin Arabia, the organization?" }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "42:36", "start": 2556.17, "text": "So we really want to help, Bitcoin companies that want to set up here, that want to expand, their, Their market here in the GCC, so we're your partner for all things Bitcoin in, in the GCC and also in Messiers, if they want to do anything with Bitcoin, that's, what we're here for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:55", "start": 2574.56, "text": "Yeah, gotcha. And for people who aren't aware, GCC, Gulf Cooperation Council, it's, I think it's six or seven, nation states that are all obviously around here in the Gulf, UAE, Saudi, and a few others." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:08", "start": 2587.92, "text": "Do you have any thoughts on what's coming, what's upcoming with, Bitcoin Arabia and with Bitcoin Oasis, the event?" }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "43:15", "start": 2595.29, "text": "We'll see next year, what we will do. So Bitcoin Oasis is an annual event But we always have like smaller events as well. We do investors meetups, we do side events for other conferences, so there's definitely a lot going on. We also have Bitcoin Mina again in, I guess in December so that's a bigger conference organized by Bitcoin Magazine that, will happen as well. So yeah, a lot of, good events coming up here in the region." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:41", "start": 2620.52, "text": "Excellent, cool. Well, I'll, we'll, we'll leave it there. Lara, thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "guest_5", "time": "43:44", "start": 2624.02, "text": "Thank you so much." } ] }