{ "episodeId": "SLP665", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "lyudmyla_kozlovska": { "name": "Lyudmyla Kozlovska", "role": "guest", "tag": "LYUDMYLA" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.12, "text": "Everybody who listen this podcast, you and other people, they aren't protected because how many these kind of cases, known cases happening, you can be not aware that your all financial travel data is weaponized or became, a honeypot for somebody. For this reason, we want to develop these remedies, both from the technical side, so tech developers, privacy developers aware about it, from other side, we were looking for solutions, in the side of regulatory, we need to close this loophole. We need to add a facility to create even more and more complication and gathering in, in one spot of data. It's really dangerous right now." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "00:52", "start": 51.89, "text": "Hi everyone and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Bold. For American listeners, you can buy Bitcoin over at getbold.io. Now rejoining me on the show So is Lyudmila. Lyudmila is the president and founder of Open Dialogue Foundation, president, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:06", "start": 66.24, "text": "Yes, and founder, and also a great" }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "01:08", "start": 68.48, "text": "and so, of course, I know you're doing a lot of work in terms of advocacy for Bitcoin and, I know you were really interested to, to talk a little bit about what's going on recently in things like FATF and AML and some of these aspects of it, so just set the ground for us here." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:27", "start": 86.57, "text": "Yeah, thank you so much, Stefan, to invite you, for inviting me. I, I think it's a very important moment because, as you know, the story of Foundation defending human rights quite long, we're doing it for fifteen years, and during these fifteen years, every time we exposing different instruments, sophisticated instruments, regimes are able to use against Western civilizations to, prosecute, citizens, activists and dissidents, those who criticize them or just, uncomfortable for them. And at the same time, we, exposing right now how- American interest, national security can be easily weaponized because of, produced long time ago financial action task force framework, on combating money laundering or fighting extremist terrorist activities, or it now one of the most favorite tool how to steal your travel data, financial data, communication data, it's weaponization of cybersecurity laws. And this is something what is not you can find, in normal media, it's not discussed much in conferences, and I think it's really important to, raise awareness, build community, ask technical developers, to find more and more, sophisticated tools how to respond to it before we find any kind of solution and educate regulators, legislators to, to, to stop this madness. And as always, I want to be very specific, we don't, take our, quotes or, statements, out of the blue. We unfortunately also experience the next wave of different kind of repression because of our human- Human rights work, and this was specifically targeting us in the US soil. Why? so secret agents of Kazakhstan, in cooperation with former secret agent of France, tried to, an alleged criminal case, against me and foundation, steal my travel data, communication, the, data and financial data on the US soil. They fabricated criminal charges and be saying that I committed cybersecurity crime, and in fact, I was recording the- Just like we are chatting right now, testimonies of victims of torture, hundreds of victims of torture, those who actually testified the names of perpetrators, especially those who were cooperating with Russian troops before they invaded to Ukraine, so there was in January, twenty twenty-two, mass shooting and torture in Kazakhstan, over ten thousand of people were arrested. So I was doing this recording, being in US and also being in Belgium. So those secret agents, they pretend to be ordinary citizens and said that their children... Brian, watching these testimonies of victims of tortures, that's why it's cyber security crime, and that's why all this testimony has to be deleted, and that's why this travel data, communication data, the way how I lead in my team being in US while I'm traveling, my, financial data, all hotels, all cross, borders movements like airports in US, in, I was in Washington, in Miami, and also in, in Europe, in Brussels and, and in other countries So they wanted to get this data, and you wouldn't be surprised that normally this data in this kind of accusation, in order to protect children, in order to stop cybersecurity crime, it's shared automatically. This is what is dangerous. There is no remedy. And, this is something where I want to raise awareness so all of us we understand that if you live in US, if you're a US entity, if you're doing business, if you're a charity, if you donate, you actually can be this kind of exposure. And There is no remedies right now how to protect your travel, financial, and, private communication data. And this is why we right now doing a lot of, meetings. We've done since March, and, of March, April, and, and May over one hundred of meetings with US legislators and regulators across political groups, together with economic inclusion groups, Freedom Foundation, of Kazakhstan and, other organizations. So we in, we, we explaining what consequences these weaponization of, FATF recommendations bring for civil society, US citizens, US allies, US charities and businesses, and it's not only about even, just, you know, like people who are doing activities s-slightly on US, but for example, US investors in other jurisdictions, they also became a target for this kind of weaponization, of anti-money laundering or counterterrorism regulations or, for example, cyber-cybersecurity laws. And, this is something- We have to change, we right now have all instruments for this, so I, I really admire how active Bitcoiners in US, let's join efforts and, make these things, happen, especially because we have right now two legislative initiatives, firm act and also, act on transnational repression. We want to introduce a specific term like transnational, financial repression, which exactly means how FATF, Financial Action Task Force recommendations work. Weaponized by third countries to undermine rule of law, national security, financial integrity, all of the things which actually was this organization saying that this tool created, but in fact they undermine our rights, and this is what we have to address and, and stop and freeze, you know, find you know, of, of, of this organization as possible." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "06:47", "start": 406.84, "text": "Got it. Okay. So let me just summarize, there was a lot in that, but let me try to summarize as I understand it, that you- speaking also out of, you know, what's happened to you personally and to your organization, Open Dialogue Foundation, but in general, that let's say FATF and AML rules have kind of created this Mechanism that can be weaponized by people to, let's say, go after certain individuals or organizations to try to shut them down or to hinder their work by using, let's say, this AML control, and I guess what you're talking about is to sort of coin this term or at least popularize this term, transnational financial repression. So can you explain a bit about what exactly is transactional-- sorry, transnational financial repression?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:36", "start": 456.4, "text": "So transnational financial repression when another states basically want to cut off you any kind of means for existing, when you cannot use, financial instruments, bank accounts, you, you terminated services or somebody re-- from financial institutions refused to open you. accounts. It can be also crypto asset services providers when they also can't have business with you. It also can be when, for example, some country or entity like bank or any kind of company starts to prosecute you to drain you financially with, abusive criminal or civil complaint on the other territories. So they weaponize international agreements, like state to state agreements, to basically block your activities, to steal your, for example For example, I don't know, business data, your tech data, your human rights data, communication data, travel data, everything what you generate and what presents interest for those, third parties, they actually can weaponize against you in order to cut off your, ability to, to function, to do business, to do your activities. And important instruments Why it's possible? Because between the states right now, there is assumption, there is a trust. So US trust Belgium the same how they trust to Kazakhstan or the same how they trust to African country. This is the platform built by Financial Action Task Force. So all states has to trust to itself. And of course, what we see right now that those countries, they, doing it one side. So all Western democracies, US, they are transparent for all authoritarian states. Which is majority in the world. It means that every citizen of Western countries, especially US, which is right now the most focus of, you know, for many reasons, for geopolitical reasons, it's a target, it's easy target, because there is innovation, because there is human rights issues, because there is different kind of political tensions, right? So you can be easily become target, and there is a tool which you cannot stop. My situation, I know about it and I was able to docu-document it, because I have special- Protection in Belgium because of my previous story, which I overcome this transnational repression back, in the last fifteen years, organized in total by seven authoritarian regimes, historically, right? The judges and police in Belgium, they did a special investigation and they found out that this secret agent of Kazakhstan, in, in cooperation with former French, secret agent, the goal was to actually collect all my travel financial data, and communication data, and that's why they said it's abuse of, these important instruments. They wanted to abuse the judicial system of Belgium to get my financial, travel and communication data, from us. And normally, this data is Transformed immediately. But because I have a quite significant track record of, different attacks against me, they protected me. But it's mean that everybody who listen this podcast, you and other people, they aren't protected, because how many these kind of cases, known cases happening, you can be not aware that your all financial travel data, is weaponized or became, a honeypot for somebody. So for this reason, we want to develop these remedies, both- From the technical side, so tech developers, privacy developers are aware about it. From other side, we're looking for solutions, in the side of regulatory, we need to close these loopholes, we need to cut off ability to create even more and more complication and gathering, in one spot of data, like now your clients, right? it's, it's, it's really dangerous right now. You see what's happening in France, you see, how it's easy to target, Bitcoiners, crypto assets holders. When you don't able to use, mixers, other privacy instruments because it banned, because exactly institution which opened the door for this kind of attacks, like Financial Action Task Force," }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "11:42", "start": 702.21, "text": "name" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:43", "start": 702.71, "text": "privacy tools, for Bitcoin payments, or any kind of privacy tools as a tool potentially for illicit activities, which is discouraging investment in these tools, which is, encouraging to stop using these tools and more and more, I would say Over regulation for, for those who provide these services, develop these services, or invest in these services, invest in our privacy and defend in us. So it's really important to, to know about it and to prevent this kind of developments." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "12:12", "start": 732.09, "text": "Back to the show in a moment. This show brought to you by CoinKite dot com, the creators of the best Bitcoin hardware security devices such as the Coldcard Mark IV and the new Coldcard Q. Now, we use Bitcoin hardware security devices to keep our keys offline, our private keys offline. Now, the way- The way these work is, you can do that setup, write down your twelve or twenty-four words on the, the seed word cards, and keep that secure. Now, you can use this device to interact with the Bitcoin network using software such as Sparrow Wallet, Electrum, or Bepede Desktop or Nunchuk as a few examples. Now, you have a range of security features that you can use with these devices, such as passphrases. You can use Seed X or, or my favorite is multi-signature. Now, if you're starting- In a basic way, just start with the device and the USB-C cable, plug it directly to the computer and use it that way, and then later improve your setup. 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The Galloy banking infrastructure stack delivers all the key elements of a modern core banking platform with cloud- Native infrastructure, event-based architecture, and robust APIs coming together to meet the security, scalability, and reliability needs of banks of the future. Whether you are launching a modern financial institution from the ground up, or you are adding Bitcoin-backed lending or payments to your product offering, talk to the team at Galloy. Visit galloy dot io or reach out to the team at b i z at g a l o y dot io. Okay. Yeah. So, in other words, the, the fact that there are these centralized This point that some of our information passes through, it's now being le-leveraged by people in other states to try to get information on you if you're doing something that they don't like and I guess this is where the, you know, obviously privacy advocates are gonna be really, naturally very interested in this. So if you're a privacy advocate, you should be listening and sharing this out there with people so they understand there, there are some of these risks. Obviously, some of the things in Bitcoin land that have happened or Bitcoin and crypto land, the recent big, revelation with Coinbase that- Basically, a lot of the KYC data of their customers had been either leaked or Coinbase employees overseas had been bribed to give up that information. so that's one big thing. And then obviously the other big thing, as I'm sure you know, and probably many listeners, is, in recent months there have been some of these kidnapping attempts against known Bitcoin and crypto entrepreneurs, investors, and people like this. And so as you say, it's that This overarching environment of FATF, AML laws, sanctions laws have kind of pushed this down to each, you know, nation state level and let's say at the EU level to sort of say, \"Hey, you need to do this much KYC and all this sort of thing.\" and also it's created this environment, as you said, where it's seen like any use of privacy techniques like coin joins, mixers, and things like that are either, in some cases, outright illegal or very much frowned upon, and so the compliance- And so it's effectively leveraging, let's say, the compliance department of banks and crypto exchanges and, virtual asset, you know, providers, service providers to sort of, leverage all of their compliance resources to sort of say, hey, you need to use- Chain surveillance or chain analysis kinds of tools, you need to start scowling on anybody using any kind of privacy technique. And so on one side, they've sort of forced everyone to dox all their details to certain centralized providers, and they've also kind of restrained, it's like effectively holding your arms behind your back and stopping you from using any kind of privacy techniques, which can also be leveraged, leveraged against us by actual literal criminals." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:44", "start": 1004.37, "text": "Yes, and to be specific, I will bring you example of one, American investor, a very successful investor in the past, who, who was crushed, because of abuse, of anti-money laundering countries' regulation and transnational repression. So case of Barlik Mendegezif, our philanthropist, very well-known person in Kazakhstan. He's, American investor, but with Kazakhstani roots. His, family is US citizens. They live in North Carolina in Charlotte. They have a charity, they have business. And, they would dare to refuse to pay bribes being successful, company working with Chevron in Kazakhstan, and because of this and also supporting families of political prisoners with small donations, paying for their legal aids, they became a target of this transnational repression. So State Department confirmed three annual reports on human rights that this family was transnationally repressed. And Kazakhstan was looking different instruments how to cut off their funds, how to destroy this family because of, of, of their activities. And they found out how to do it on US soil. Again, with abuse of anti-money laundering regulation, they send a special request, they knew, thanks to support of special, lobbyist, that in case of request, so, of mutual legal assistance when state to state send requests and claiming falsely, no evidence, no court here, nothing, that this person is, involved in money laundering or extremist activity or whatever, linked with, financial crime Crimes and, and extremist activities that would open opportunity to close bank accounts, to freeze assets, to destroy business, destroy charity activity, and make life impossible both for two daughters of Barak Mindegezif, his wife, and himself, being absolute legitimate, you know, investor, American inv-investor and, a US resident and citizens, in, in North Carolina. And this is an example of what can happen with you. And we speak when we say about the nations from his side, it's like some- Hundreds of dollars to support families of political opinion, it's nothing, but it shows if somebody is really pesthophony, if somebody wants to make you harm, there is no protection, no remedies right now existing for US citizens and, residents, and this is what I'm going to say also in US Congress. I'm raising this, I will testify on this issue on twenty-fourth of, June, in, in Washington, because I believe this is a matter of national security and these standards from US where Financial Action Task Force are Writing them, they afterwards spread globally, so that's why I'm saying that all Western civilization following this in other countries, they just unfortunately very much exposed for this kind of abuses. We can't trust authoritarian states, it has to be stopped and privacy tools has to be protected. Bitcoin transactions right now are the only instrument you can use in authoritarian states, but facilitators of these transactions because of this wording and blaming labeling by financial action task force that this- Facilitators are facilitators for illicit activities, not facilitators for freedom tech, right? They are also on huge, prosecution. And the same with, Bitcoin ATMs, be-sa-be-e-everything, unfortunately linked with this negative, regulatory language. We have to change it, and we have to stop you know, this spreading of, disinformation because it's sad these laws that they want to protect us. In fact, what we see in reality, it's undermine our protection, undermine our travel, privacy, our communication privacy, our financial privacy, and it's very dangerous." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "20:26", "start": 1226.03, "text": "It seems, yeah, kind of concerning all around the world. I mean, there's lots of different things, but as an example, and I'm sure a lot of Bitcoiners are familiar with these examples, the obvious one being like the Canada trucker example with the protest, people who made donations to that, they-- some of them had their accounts shut down. There was a famous case a few years ago, Nigel Farage had his account shut down. the Trump family have been very open about this as well, from their perspective, that they were kind of getting a lot of their accounts shut down, Certainly a lot of Bitcoin people have sympathy here, and they either personally have it happen to them or friends of theirs have had their accounts shut down for all kinds of reasons, and because of all these compliance laws that are in the background, sometimes these compliance staff at exchanges and banks can't even tell them why. They'll say, \"Hey, we're shutting your account down because...\" Whatever, and that's it, we don't wanna do business with you anymore. Of course, you know, it's good to be able to use Bitcoin, but, we still don't live in the total Bitcoin standard, so there's a lot of times where people still have to make fiat payments or they may need to sell Bitcoin to fiat to be able to make their rent payment or whatever, or to pay staff. And so that, that's, I guess, that's sort of where we are from a Bitcoin perspective, Bitcoin services. Who, who are the people who you see most You mentioned Bitcoin ATMs, is it, Bitcoin exchanges, is it people who wanna offer card services for Bitcoiners? What are some of the Bitcoin, products and services that are impacted?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:57", "start": 1316.65, "text": "I would say entire network, be- it's most customers and, I mean, from my perspective, they g- exactly for the reason as you said, right? You can of course say that I don't care, Bitcoin don't care, but the moment when your data became a honeypot for, for some, hackers and, and you became a target You will start to care, and I don't want this moment actually to come true, right? So we need to be preemptive, in this regard, and we can. We need to defend our industry, we need to defend our facilitators of transactions. When I say facilitators of transactions, it's those who are actually helping people to, do exchange, of cash to Bitcoin and back, because activists, I mean, everybody, I think for the moment still need to be able to go cash and back to, to Bitcoin as a tool for transaction and a tool for exchange and, and, and this is something extremely important and one of the most comfortable, of course, in the past, instrument for this was ATMs. Right now, for example, in Europe and other, many other jurisdictions following this pattern, and they recognize ATM, as a, again, as a tool also for illicit activities. They try to stop cash spread and they're the same try to stop, ability to use exchange Bitcoin directly to, to cash, and They limit also this ability, so there is even like limit one thousand of euros, everything above is considered to be potentially abusive or you, you have to do additional reporting, which makes business impossible, impossible to conduct because of this compliance cost So, there is no reason for this. If we see the reality, if anybody wants to steal new technologies from US, if somebody wants to, know everything about, let's say, developers or AI developers or like, whatever, like sensitive information, they can get it through third parties, through, a different kind of governments, paying nothing and weaponizing cybersecurity laws or anti-money laundering regulation, and there is no remedies. Yeah, now," }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "23:58", "start": 1438.0, "text": "I guess one point people might push back on you Just to understand, maybe you can help explain how this goes down. So as an example, this foreign agent in some other country, unrelated to the country of your citizenship or the country that you were traveling in He's trying to get the information from, I don't know, a crypto exchange that you used or the airline or the hotel that you used. Why are they giving him this data? Like, are they just saying, \"You're a law enforcement agent in some other country, here's Luda's data\"? Like, how exactly is this happening? Are they making some kind of official request? Are they hacking? Or how are they doing this?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:36", "start": 1476.16, "text": "No, this normally happens through official requests, and it can be just, not even accusing you about anything. It just can be information- Information requests. So they said, \"We suspect that this person potentially can be involved in cybersecurity crime or potentially can be involved.\" There is no evidences, right? There is no decision of court. The thing of these regulations created by financial action task force, they are preemptive, right? So they want prevent, but at the same time, because there is no due, due process, it's so easy to abuse, because how you gonna stop it? And countries are great. It's like" }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "25:12", "start": 1511.6, "text": "the colloquial term people use, like a phishing Expedition, right? They just sort of think, \"Oh, look, these, these twenty people, they might be doing something wrong. Give me all the data you've got on them, and then boom, now I've got looters, you know, home address and where she's traveled, which hotels, which airline, whatever, all this stuff.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:26", "start": 1526.43, "text": "And then on the basis of this information, it's easy to those countries actually to fabricate case because it looks low, more, legitimate, because they have already your data, so they can actually attack you way more," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:42", "start": 1542.42, "text": "In many cases, but for example, we learned, but unfortunately, I cannot disclose the names of these companies how it happened. So they were quite successful as a company doing something with new technologies, in, in US, and they can't understand how the competitors in other country where they also, also planned investment got all their customers, all their, you know, suppliers and many other things. The thing is that there wasn't, international request Of information, not even accusation about anything, and all this data flowed. So it's, it's dangerous also from business perspective." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "26:19", "start": 1579.13, "text": "Yeah, for sure. And you can't stop, yeah, because they will never" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:21", "start": 1581.31, "text": "even know about it." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "26:23", "start": 1582.53, "text": "Right. And they can either find, they can sort of trace the fiat money flows or ask for other information and sort of pull the information together. And it's important to note here, look, of course, Bitcoin and internet privacy technologies, you know, people can be using whatever VPN and Tor and I2P and whatever, and then, on the Bitcoin side Payjoin and Coinjoin and, you know, all the- But we need to know" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:45", "start": 1604.54, "text": "how to use it and other people who actually expose to this, right? Right." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "26:47", "start": 1607.36, "text": "Right. But, but my point is, even if you did all the, quote unquote, right privacy things, they can still pone you because, you know, when you fly, they need your passport. When you check into a hotel, they ask for your passport. Yes. Like, it's just not, you know, it's one thing to get, let's say, the digital privacy side of" }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "27:09", "start": 1629.32, "text": "it They can get information on you that way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:14", "start": 1634.26, "text": "Yes. Yeah. Yeah. To have this kind of protection, like, in my case, the judge and police of Belgium, they really look into the case and, and define not to transfer automatically my data, but to protect me. And actually write it in decision of the court that this is clear abuse and weaponization of these important instruments, right?" }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "27:32", "start": 1651.95, "text": "The lead sponsor of this show is BOLD, the best place to buy, sell, and save Bitcoin. For listeners in the US, BOLD lets you secure your financial future with complete peace of mind. 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Now, of course, I'm, I'm pro abolishing FATF and abolishing AML laws altogether, but let me steal man for a second. What if the argument is, \"Well, look, Luda, there've been these kidnapping cases in France, and the legal authorities need a way to try to trace down the criminal masterminds who set-- you know, who did the kidnappings in France or whatever.\" Is there some legitimate- Law enforcement, you know, even if you're a libertarian against the state, but is there some kind of libertarian, is there some kind of le-legitimate argument for being able to have Some form of a law enforcement person request data from a third party." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:11", "start": 1751.12, "text": "So we need to dis-distinguish there are two things. First, effectiveness of the current anti-money laundering, framework, cybersecurity framework. We don't see data how effective it is, and we're requesting it constantly. We see impact for human rights, we see impact for businesses, and we are really not satisfied with it. From other side, we see that there is not enough funding, even like when I was communicating with police or judge They don't have enough technology and funding being able to process these case, cases as, as they should be. So what I would encourage actually to give more resources for them, literally to give capacity for police and judges and prosecutors to do proper investigation, not just, you know, put everybody by assumption that every single technology, new technology, how fat of claim can be a tool or for, money laundering, cybersecurity crimes or any kind of crimes. Everything can be, but- Potentially, but so what? We, we want to ban everything? How are we gonna to develop? It's not the way how we can actually, live as societies. It's China style of, rules and a China style that you basically assume that every citizen committing crime. No, we need to distinguish those who committing crime, and we need to have instruments to stop it, and people who actually have capacity as a police, as a judge, as a prosecutor, we have this distinguished and, and divided, divi-division of the powers exactly because This will help us to get justice. What we see right now, financial institutions, banks, crypto exchanges, now hotels, travel agencies, they have to share your data on immediate request. They have no capacity. They have not police, they aren't judges, they aren't prosecutors. They can't judge if I'm criminal or not, or if I'm a person who is actually targeted in politically way. They can't. And they were delegated these functions, which is extremely dangerous, and that's why I think that- Total failure from the side of Financial Action Task Force to propose this kind of recommendation. The same as a function of Interpol, it's stated to be, as the main police organizations to prosecute criminals. Right now, it's the main tool, again, based on and build on anti-money laundering regulation, build on combating cybersecurity crimes. It's the main tool how to prosecute people transnationally. And this is a fact. It's not a fact anymore because authoritarian states cooperate closely and they weaponize every single transparency from the Western countries. This is where we are right now." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "31:41", "start": 1900.66, "text": "Yeah, that's pretty brutal. so what can be done about this? Is it a matter of trying to change the local legislation? Is it a matter of trying to defund FATF? What can be done and by who?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:52", "start": 1912.31, "text": "Both activists right now, like, I think Bitcoiners already understood that they have voice quite significant value and impact for not only US, but also, every, like Abroad also, right? Globally. And, but first of course, we need to fix everything in US. That's why I really focus right now on our, all of our advocacy in the US. And there is a lot of, pro-privacy, legislators and regulators in, in US right now. We need to give them as much as possible power. So their proposals, for example, like, Financial Integrity and Regulation Management Act, or for example, a Counter-Transnational Repression Act, where this definition of transnational financial repression Or fact that, people can be, the risk debunked, deprived right to have financial services is actually articulated. And what's exactly a reason for this, articulated, right? We need these, acts became reality, became a remedy against this kind of abuses. And we need to have journalists on our sides, we need to have as much as possible bloggers. So, and of course, constituency. So, bitcoiners are constituencies for every single legislator right now. Your voice This will be heard, but speak out, speak up and ask questions. What interest actually protect Fadov right now for me? I know about this and these violations, it documented, it's not theoretical, it's decisions of judicial, system of Belgium, it's, it's fact that there is transnational repression on US soil against American investors. What has done to protect him and his family? This is questions we need to ask and we need to get answers. And more specific we are, more effective we are." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "33:34", "start": 2014.15, "text": "Okay. Yeah. So what I'm reading from you there is that, let's say, American, especially in this case, American, listeners can try to put, let's say, pressure on their local, advocates or, let's say, lawmakers to try to change some of the laws around this so that FATF, like, FATF's pr-pronouncements can't be weaponized by foreign, agents or foreign criminals. To leverage that against, let's say, American citizens and the privacy of American Bitcoiners as well. Yeah, even" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:09", "start": 2049.17, "text": "proxies. Look, in my case, what I documented is these secret agents tried to pretend ordinary citizens, protecting their children rights, right? Right. So imagine how it's sophisticated. And former agent from France helped them to file this complaint, criminal complaint against me in Belgium soil to get my data from US. So you see, it's really complicated. It's not a It's, it, it's, it's really complicated. They really take, take this effort if, if they want to. But it shows how for them it's easy and what way they used if they want somebody." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "34:42", "start": 2082.04, "text": "Yeah, interesting. And so I think the, yeah, really the, the fundamental problem is that these laws have created this environment where all of us are vulnerable. And the pretext, the, you know, it's sort of said that these laws are to keep you safe, little citizens. You should all just be comfortable giving up all your data every time you fly, every time you stay at a hotel, every time you do almost anything. And it's the, the, you know, it's sort of sold to people as, \"Oh, you need to do this for your safety,\" but then at the It's also being weaponized against you for, you know, for activities that are harmful to either your business interest or your safety as an individual or as a family or a business." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:22", "start": 2122.49, "text": "Yes, exactly. Enough if you criticize somebody and somebody wouldn't happy about it, right? And then your travel data, communication data, and financial data shared, you exposed. Gotcha. Okay, so look, let's," }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "35:32", "start": 2132.47, "text": "let's make sure listeners know what to do. What are the best ways for them to, help you out here? What, what are you asking? What's the ask from listeners?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:41", "start": 2141.06, "text": "My Is to be active because once you are constituents, I'm happy to coordinate this action. So reach out and we will co-coordinate our actions, whom to, who is the best legislator to, to approach, how we actually can build this, bipartisan coalition and, and what we can do. So we basically need these calls as much as possible, raise awareness, about, this, problem in US." }, { "speaker": "lyudmyla_kozlovska", "time": "36:04", "start": 2163.69, "text": "Got it. Okay, so yeah, listeners, I know some of the listeners out there are really strong focused on privacy advocates, so for you out there, make sure you share this out there into your circles, and of course, we'll put the links in the show notes for people to reach out to you, Lyudmyla. So, thank you. Thank you. Lyudmyla, thanks for joining me and, helping, raise, awareness about this, issue." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:24", "start": 2184.38, "text": "Thank you, thank you, Stefan, and thank you everybody who" } ] }