{ "episodeId": "SLP683", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "jan_kotas": { "name": "Jan Kotas", "role": "guest", "tag": "JAN" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:10", "start": 9.73, "text": "Hi everyone and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast brought to you by Bold. US listeners, you can buy Bitcoin for the lowest fees in the industry and also earn the highest Sats back with the Bold debit card. Now joining me on the show today is Jan Kotas, he is in Paraguay and, also representing the Bitcoin Paraguay or BTC Paraguay scene. and so, w-first off, welcome to the show, Jan." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "00:34", "start": 34.44, "text": "Oh," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:35", "start": 34.61, "text": "thank you for having me. So, Jan, I know you're a Czech guy, I ran into you and, met you in, well, just at BTC Prague earlier this year, and I know you're focused on, Paraguay as well. So, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up in Paraguay." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "00:52", "start": 52.38, "text": "Well, as you mentioned, I'm, I'm a co-founder of Bitcoin Paraguay, which is a nonprofit organization, it's community-based organization. In Paraguay, we are focusing on helping, with the adoption, local Bitcoin adoption, spreading the awareness about the Bitcoin and trying to kind of like orange build Paraguay as, as well. And then I'm, also, co-founder, co-owner of the Hacking Lives, which is a company and this company we're, focusing on helping- And people, get more sovereignty to their lives by implementing, flexury practices." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:29", "start": 88.81, "text": "I see. Yeah. And so this is kind of in circles that I'm running in, and I'm sure circles that you're running in, I'm hearing a lot more about Paraguay in recent years. I would say in the last maybe two to three years, it's really come up a lot. Like, just, I, I've never been there, but this is just like, even just from what I'm hearing from people, there's more people talking about it. There's just more people who Or kind of in digital nomad and flag theory circles. So can you give us a bit of an overview from that perspective, why is, Paraguay and the city Asuncion interesting for those kinds of people?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "02:04", "start": 123.77, "text": "I, I would say Paraguay is kind of a hidden gem in South America, maybe in the world, because it, it gives you many benefits if you're, for example, resident of Paraguay, you, you get really great, tax, tax system. You can optimize your taxes, you can li- If there, you can, get high degree of freedom, if you live in Paraguay, and it wasn't really known like even like five years ago, like no one really spoke about Paraguay, everybody spoke about like UAE or, you know, countries with, which, which are really open to, to businesses and, and, and, and, freedom, freedom seekers, but, Paraguay wasn't on the, on the sovereignty map, let's say Until like maybe two thousand twenty, two thousand twenty-one, when everything like changed and suddenly like there is a huge, digital nomad community, many expats are moving to, to Paraguay. we also started the Bitcoin Paraguay, community, which is, rapidly, growing and so yeah, right now many people are realizing Paraguay actually is becoming the place to go and place to be because it offers you a lot for And for very little, like the, for example, with the Paraguayan residency, there are really low requirements to maintain the, the Paraguayan residence, and this, this is really great for the digital nomads, which are like traveling all across the world, but they still, still want to have a base, a place they can go to, anytime and, and spend them, spend their part of the year, or just to keep the, the tax residency benefits that Paraguay offers to them." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:48", "start": 227.62, "text": "I see, yeah. And how's the infrastructure there? Like, I presume it has developed a lot in the recent, call it, five years or so?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "03:56", "start": 235.69, "text": "Yes. I mean, of course, if you compare it with the Western, societies, Western countries, it's, definitely not as developed, as, for example, Europe or United States. But, you know, it's each, e-every time it's about the compromises and, and for me, for example, of course, the infrastructure isn't really well developed, but I, I more appreciate the freedom Paraguay offers to me and, and, and the way I can basically, create my own life and, and, and live life on my own terms, let's say." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:30", "start": 270.31, "text": "Yeah. And how would you say the safety is there and crime rates and things in, especially, I guess we're talking here about Asuncion specifically?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "04:38", "start": 277.85, "text": "Okay. Okay. Well, in Asuncion, it's, it's okay, kinda, of course, as in any other Latin American country, it very much depends on where you are and what time. of course, you don't want to go to like barrios that are less developed Where poorer people live, because those are, th-those tend to be more dangerous. There's like higher criminal rate, but there are, barrios or, or neighborhoods that are, well developed, and, that are pretty safe. And usually in those barrios, the expats and, and, and people that are in our, communities, live, and they are pretty safe." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:19", "start": 319.36, "text": "Yeah. Now in terms of, I guess, you know, just general expat community Because again, I'm hearing about this in various, like, not just even in the Bitcoin world, but kind of in the broader expat, kind of digital nomad, flag theory people. I'm hearing about this from them too. So are you seeing that in terms of the meetup groups and kind of the connections that you can make, that aspect of it?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "05:40", "start": 340.43, "text": "Yes. I think Paraguay attracts really great sort of people, because, and that's also the reason why I actually stayed there, because I, I, when I, when I came first time, to the Par Continued traveling because my, my background is in, in computer, science and, and I was a programmer for many years, working as a freelancer and moving all around the world. And Paraguay actually made me a stay, I, I, I realized that I really value the community I, I got there, because it never happened to me before where I was surrounded by people that are very like-minded and very, I would say on, on the same, same- Same wavelength, with me, thinking about the same issues, same problems, also not really that big friends of the state and advocates of freedom. So I, I really found my place in Paraguay, and that's what made me to stay," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:39", "start": 399.32, "text": "yeah. Yeah, interesting. And so," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:44", "start": 403.93, "text": "would you say when people come to Paraguay, is it, or Asuncion as well, it typically are they doing like part of the year there, or are there people who are, let's say, mostly based there but they're kind of flying around a bit? What, what kind of, what are you seeing in, in your circles? Like, is it, put it this way, are they thinking of it as like, \"This is like where I'm gonna park and home base,\" or is it more like, \"I stop in here" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "07:10", "start": 430.08, "text": "Well, I, I w- I would say there are three categories of people that are visiting Paraguay. First of them are just Plan B seekers, those just go there, but they have no intention to actually move there. They just go there to get the residency and then they, they go back to their home country and stay there, with the optionality to move there, someday in the future. So this is the first category. The second category are digital nomads, and those usually go there to get their, tax residency, and They usually stay there like two, three months a year, but then they continue moving around. And, the third category are actually people that are expats that moved there or that are spending like a big part of their" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:54", "start": 474.24, "text": "primary base, let's say. Yes. Gotcha. And I guess, you know, for many people, they might have like family overseas or whatever, but they might spend most of the time there in Asuncion, but then go back and see family for like a month or two per year, something like that, that might be the more typical, in that third category, let's say. and then, talking about the regulatory, you know, the regulation and the environment there, like as you-- and the tax side of things, I guess it's known for being a territorial tax system, right And you have your income from outside of Paraguay, then that, generally isn't being taxed by the Paraguay state, let's say. So can you outline a little bit or elaborate a bit on that side of things, how people are structuring from the tax perspective there?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "08:42", "start": 521.73, "text": "Yeah. This is, I, I would say for the digital nomads, this is the, the biggest benefit for them to, to actually get the Paraguay residency, because you can get a Paraguay residency and tax residency, which has basically kind of the same requirement as the, the physical residency, the, the permits to stay there in, in Paraguay. So they can just keep their tax residency and, and invoice on, for example, a US LLC. So and all the income that is invoiced on the US LLC is basically, seen as an international income. so for the remote, remote workers who are, for example, freelancing or, usually programmers or content creators Creators or, UX, designers, th-these kind of people, they can create really great tax efficient, structure with, tax residency in Paraguay and, for example, a US LLC invoicing with the US LLC and from the Paraguayan side, it's considered as, international income or foreign income and it's not taxed in Paraguay, which is, which is just great." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:54", "start": 593.92, "text": "I see. Yeah. And so could you explain a bit about the US LLC side of things? Like, I guess here we're getting into a little bit on your, the hacking lives company, but, can you explain a bit on that because How does it work that they're able to route funds or their income via the US LLC without paying taxes into the US?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "10:13", "start": 613.35, "text": "Yes. Well, it, it very much depends on you, you, you cannot be, a tax resident of the United States, of course. And, and this is, for example, a problem with the people that are from the US, which aren't really eligible for this because US taxes, international income. So US, US citizens, passport- Holders, they, they aren't very eligible for, for this setup. But for example, Europeans that tax based on the, on, on their residency where they stay most of the, the year, for them, this, this setup makes a lot of sense. And, and with the US LLC, as I said, you can just create very simple structure, because it's low maintenance structure with the US LLC, you can, you can create it in a couple of days, and, and start invoicing and, you, you don't have- We don't have to think about the bureaucracy that much because, it's, it's very simple. Like once per year, you have to pay for the register agent, you have to pay the state fee, and then fill like two IRS forms, and that's it. That's, that's, that's everything, and it's very simple to, to maintain. And on the Paraguayans' side, side, you just have to, like, every month report, a statement, IVA statement, and, it's basically for It's very low maintenance structure and that, that basically lets you to focus on your business rather than the, the bureaucracy. So it's not just about the tax savings, but it's also about like saving your time and focusing on what is important for your business." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:53", "start": 712.86, "text": "I see, yeah. And so I guess the key point there is, this is for non-US taxpayers and citizens, yes. and there is some, you know, structural work required to set that up, but I, I'm curious, do you think that could change in the future? Like, could US tax rules or reporting change that changes this? treatment?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "12:14", "start": 734.1, "text": "Well, let's see. I mean, it works for, quite some time already, and, and many people they were using it, even before it, it became so popular. so, so, I don't know, like for- It, it, it's hard to say. I, I, I mean, there is a higher possibility that something will change on the Paraguayan side, that it will, for example, stop or change the rules about their, their, foreign income. But, yeah, I don't see the change coming in, in, in the short term, to be honest." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:50", "start": 769.92, "text": "And then, as you mentioned on the Paraguay side, do you believe that, I guess, on the Paraguay government side of things or politicians might see this like, \"Oh, hey, there's all these like digital nomad people and flag theory, all these people coming and setting up here and moving to Asuncion, yeah, is it time to start?\" Going after them for taxes, or is the perception seen like actually we're proud of the current tax structure and we want people to move here, and we are just, maybe they're just hoping that you guys, people who come and set up there, will, I guess, invest locally or set up businesses locally or do something to, kind of, do additional things that contribute to the local economy?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "13:33", "start": 813.28, "text": "Yeah, I think like Paraguay itself benefits a lot from this because, of course, all those people- People, they are high skilled individuals, and Paraguay wants to attract these kind of people to, to build Paraguay, because Paraguay itself, like the, the territory, size is, about a Germany, like, but the, the, the population is Around six, seven million, and, and, and most of it is concentrated in Asunción. It's, compared to, for example, Europe or United States, it's, it's much less developed, even though it's developing really fast recently. and those people bring experience, like those people from Europe, they have usually high education, and, and this is like one of the, the, the requirements. It's, it's easier for people, for example, that have this, this, university degree to, to apply for the residency And these people, if they stay, if they make them stay in Paraguay, they can, they can create businesses or invest in local real estate and, and, and give people a job and, and so on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:40", "start": 879.55, "text": "Yeah, of course. And even just living there, you're gonna be buying, you know, things locally, whether that's food or other services or kind of as a source of demand for other businesses that, are, are in Asuncion, as an example. and so any thoughts on like reporting? reporting requirements and things like that, because that seems to be coming up around the world, things like, like, crypto asset reporting framework or like on the crypto, Bitcoin side of things or even just, you know Various jurisdictions are starting to like ask more and more things like, \"Hey, source of wealth, source of funds, this kind of thing,\" like these, these kinds of questions are escalating. what's your view on that stuff?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "15:22", "start": 922.25, "text": "Well, the good thing about the Paraguay is that if, if you want to get the residency, you don't have to prove any, any source of funds or any income. So this is actually great benefit for the Bitcoiners or people that are in crypto space, because, you don't want to give, your addresses and, and show them that you own some, some crypto assets, right? So, and you don't even have to like give them bank statements and so on, they still can't open you a bank account, which is, which is great. So th- there aren't many countries in the world that, that actually allow this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:58", "start": 958.0, "text": "I see. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, it is interesting to see that, Because, yeah, it does seem to be kind of escalating elsewhere around the world, and that could also be another driving factor of people wanting to move to look at some of these other jurisdictions where maybe, maybe the reporting requirements aren't as, stringent. I guess one downside I have heard with some of these aspects of it is if you go somewhere that has, lower taxes either directly or kind of the territorial tax system, it can be more difficult to set up bank accounts. Like sometimes it's like, or, or you can set up a bank- Bank account, but then other banks may not be easily wiring funds to you in that jurisdiction because, you know, all the while they're sort of starting to, you know, get aggressive about taxes and things like this." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "16:46", "start": 1005.93, "text": "Yes, I, I completely agree. And, and even in Paraguay, even though that, that for example, you can, you can buy in Paraguay a real estate with a Bitcoin or USDT, still local banks are still quite hostile to crypto assets in general. so there are many cases where people, for example, I don't know, they did peer-to-peer transaction with someone and they said in a note that it's for Bitcoin and basically the, the local bank account, they, they shut down their, their account. So this is pretty much similar to any other state in the world, currently, it's not very crypto-friendly, but I would say that it's slowly changing. with the awareness and, and also what we do with, Bitcoin Paraguay, with the, with the education, it's slowly starting to change and things are starting to move the right direction also in this sector." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:43", "start": 1062.98, "text": "Yeah, it does seem that, a lot of the world, whether they want to admit it or not, they're kind of following the US guidance, right? So when like the US kind of let Bitcoin ETFs happen, you know, spot Bitcoin ETFs happen in the US, that seems to have really kind of kicked off More conversations all around the world, and now obviously right now the hot, the hot, hot topic is the treasury companies, but just kind of around the world, we're seeing more and more interest in things like banks, like normal tradfi banks. Having Bitcoin accounts. Now maybe they're not as advanced or maybe they've got like custodial Bitcoin that you can't withdraw or things like this, but it's, it's at least a step that where they're starting to expose Bitcoin to their own customers, and so that's something I'm noticing. What are you seeing on that?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "18:30", "start": 1109.92, "text": "Yeah, I, I think that especially those little countries like Paraguay, they can benefit greatly, from enabling, enabling people to use, if it's Bitcoin or if it's a Tether, it can bring a lot of capital to the country, and this capital can be invested if they open themselves to, to this, because still Paraguay is outside of the CRS, so they don't have these reporting obligations yet. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:56", "start": 1135.66, "text": "I just, I guess we should just quickly explain that. So CRS, as I'm understanding, that's kind- It's kind of like, it's kind of like FATCA but for the rest of the world. So basically, banks, basically in jurisdictions that have signed up with, with CRS, the banks in that jurisdiction have to basically ask customers, \"Hey, what citizenships do you hold? What tax residency do you hold? What residences do you hold?\" And then based on that, they will then start like reporting that back to your home country and home tax office or the countries that you have citizenships or passports or whatever. and so then there are some jurisdictions that have like- Many of them have signed up to CRS, and sounds like you're saying here Paraguay is actually not a CRS member, so therefore the banks don't have to do that same level of reporting." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "19:38", "start": 1177.59, "text": "Exactly, but this also creates a lot of friction because getting money to Paraguay or outside of the, Paraguay is increasingly harder than if you're transferring money between the, the CRS member states." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:51", "start": 1191.2, "text": "The lead sponsor of this show is Bold, the banking platform designed for Bitcoiners. With the Bold Virtual Visa Debit Card, you earn Bitcoin back on every purchase. 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So that's kind of the, another downside trade-off there. but yeah, I guess it, it is interesting to see because it's sort of like Bitcoin is starting to go more mainstream, but as part of that, I think governments and politicians are taking more of an interest and now it's starting to become more, you know, more regulated and more of this kind of, \"Oh, we'll let you do this, but it needs to be whatever chain analysis or chain surveillance aspects of it or...\" X, Y, and Z, and I think some of this is like, it was gonna have to go this way, right? I think realistically. Now, of course, many of us have, let's say, Cypair Park or lib and or libertarian leanings in how we see, see the world, so we're against that regulation in principle, but it is also that's- How Bitcoin is gonna mainstream, isn't it?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "22:27", "start": 1346.57, "text": "Exactly. Yeah, I, I think this was inevitable, that, this has to happen. that, I mean, even though I, I'm, i-in a hard, I'm a cypherpunk, I, I'm a Bitcoin maximalist, I, I really like peer-to-peer and all the, the initiatives, I still have to admit that for the mainstream adoption, the, this has to happen because not everybody, not everybody is like us, not every- Everybody, understands the, the principle and is in favor of this principle we are, following" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:00", "start": 1379.73, "text": "basically. Yeah, I see. And I think that's maybe another big, like, one thing that I see. Now, of course, in Bitcoin and libertarian circles, this isn't a fringe opinion that, you know, AML and FATF and KYC and sanctions laws are a bad thing. Yeah. but we're a small minority for now, and maybe over time, if we sort of get enough people to understand that all this AML laws, all these sanctions- Laws, all this KYC or BSA in the US context, it's making us worse off, it's making us less safe because now there's all this information about us everywhere. Whenever you have to KYC with services, now they know your, whatever, your passport, or they know your address, and now, you know, hackers are getting hold of this information or even that recent one where I think it was Coinbase had some international staff who maybe weren't vetted correctly or whatever, and they, they let that information out. So then you can think about like Imagine if there's all these like Bitcoin holders where, you know, Coinbase data, you know, Coinbase has the data on them, on how many Bitcoin they hold and their, and their home address, and you can think about like what, what this means if like hackers and bad people get hold of that information, right?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "24:10", "start": 1449.69, "text": "Yeah, it's very dangerous. And, and this I, when, when I explain Bitcoin to the people during the workshops and I'm, I'm telling them about the, the ways they can, buy some Bitcoin, I'm always trying to stress all, all the benefits and als-also the, the cons of, KYC versus peer to peer, a-and this is one of the main points and I- well o-the people usually tell me like, if I buy Bitcoin peer to peer, without the KYC, I usually, paying higher fee or, I'm basically more vulnerable if I do in-person trade because someone can just like rob me on the street and so on. But I'm always telling them, but, you know, if you give all those information to the crypto ex-exchanges, and they will save them some-somewhere you don't even know, you don't know how they treat the data, and they are obliged by the governments to give them access to this information if they ask them for. This is like huge attack vector, and you never know, like in the future, as you said, like this data can leak and some bad actor, it doesn't even have to be a government, it can be just some hacking group or some, some wildland group that will attack you on the street if they get access to this data, data, it's, i-it puts you in a greater danger." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:38", "start": 1538.19, "text": "Yeah. And but, but at the same time, I'm also not, you know, against, like, you know, KYC exchanges existing because- At the same time, I, you know, I'm not expecting entrepreneurs to go and kind of martyr themselves and like, martyr themselves for the cause to like do no KYC and get sent to jail because they didn't comply with the government regulation, because at the same time, you know, I think what we need is to kind of push back against AML and KYC and FATF, the concept, and at the leg-- at the legal level, maybe not the most cypherpunk, thing, but that's at least something that on the Bitcoin advocacy Side, so, y-y-you know, I think that, yeah, but also on the technology and the cyberpunk side, yeah, there's like maybe there's better privacy techniques that can be implemented in Bitcoin, things like, you know, payjoin and silent payments and, I don't know, coinjoin stuff as well, we'll see what happens there, I guess. but let's, let's bring it back to Bitcoin Paraguay, BTC Paraguay. Tell us a little bit about the community you're building there, the meetups, what-- and I Tell us a little bit about what you're, you're doing on the BTC Paraguay front." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "26:49", "start": 1609.22, "text": "Well, Bitcoin Paraguay started, one year ago, more or less. we started doing regular meetups every month, first Wednesday a month we do a big meetup. recent meetups we had over a hundred and fifty people showing up. So it, it, it got, during all the year, it got pretty big and, and right now we count about like five hundred active members in our WhatsApp community Community, of course, there are some people that aren't part of this WhatsApp group, but, yeah, we are doing workshops, we are, also, right now, cooperating with, Mi Primer Bitcoin, my first Bitcoin, El Salvadorian, education initiative. So, they made their first, course in Paraguay, two months ago, now they are planning to do the next one. So, yeah, we are working on Basically educating people, about Bitcoin and, and spreading financial education in Paraguay, because with this we hope that we can actually make some change and, and it's also great to have a community of people where you can, you can share the ideas and you can make some friendships and, and, and have a good time. So it's like the, the broader family, I would say, right" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:07", "start": 1686.72, "text": "now for us. Gotcha. And so," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:11", "start": 1690.96, "text": "Are you, so you mentioned the monthly meetups, and then you also mentioned kind of a little bit on the educational side, so you mentioned like Me Premium Bitcoin, are you doing any like educational workshops yourself or what's the story on that?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "28:25", "start": 1705.39, "text": "Yeah, basically it all started, because of the workshops. When I came and, and started living in Paraguay, there were already, expert community and many people were interested in, in, in Bitcoin or USDT and, and they were trying to find a way how to get money to, to country and, and from the country. And, and I was like, okay, I, I know about Bitcoin and maybe I should start telling people or educating them about- About how it works and why, why do we need it and why is it so important for our society. And so it started like that, we, we made a few workshops, I think like five, six workshops, and, and then a group started to, to get bigger and bigger, and, and we started our first chat, and, and then I get in touch with some locals that were also Bitcoiners, and we got this idea that maybe we can organize it a little, and, and we, we should, create our- Like a community brand, Bitcoin Paraguay, and start organizing regular workshops and regular, meetups. So it all started like that, and, and then we got this vision to actually orange bill Paraguay and educate people." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:39", "start": 1779.14, "text": "So I'm curious then, when those people, now let's- sidebar or like excluding the people who are already Maxi's per se, already kind of hardcore Bitcoiners, the people you're running into, like the expats, let's say, the wealthier kind of- Nomad, expat types, how familiar would you say they were with Bitcoin and stablecoins? Like, is it like they had a peripheral awareness of it, maybe they'd occasionally got paid in it, but not that often, and then you were kind of teaching them a bit more about, like, okay, here's how you actually do self-custody? Or what, what was the level they were at that you were" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "30:15", "start": 1814.9, "text": "finding?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:16", "start": 1815.82, "text": "I" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "30:16", "start": 1815.94, "text": "would say the most of the people we are educating are complete beginners. They, they either-- well, most of them heard about Bitcoin, but they never, never bought any Bitcoin or never really research, what Bitcoin is and why they need it. So what we do always is we give them the reason why they should explore Bitcoin. So we teach them, like, what is money, why our current money is broken. Gotcha. And this is even" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:46", "start": 1846.4, "text": "amongst the already like, kind of savvy expat communities. Yes, yes. Right. So they just have very low awareness of like, in terms of, they would have heard about Bitcoin, but they haven't actually used it." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "30:57", "start": 1856.83, "text": "Yeah, exactly. Well, right now there are more and more expats that, that or already have some background in, in Bitcoin that are coming to Paraguay, but they are Already coming because we have the, the community, I would say, and they know about us and they are joining the community." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:12", "start": 1872.35, "text": "Gotcha. And they might have friends overseas who hear, hear about it and they're like, \"Oh, okay, you're there, I'll come and join you\" or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Interesting. And then to the, to your point, you were saying earlier around the difficulty of, you know, sometimes getting Fiat into the country because, again, not a CRS jurisdiction, and sometimes, you know, the banks are a bit more- you know, because in the fiat side of things, they have to have like a correspondent bank who's willing to send that fiat. so how are you finding people do move fiat into Paraguay? Is it just that there's certain pathways that exist, but they're just not that- Popular or not that well known or like how do people, how do people move fiat into and out of Paraguay? Is it just like stablecoin stuff or what?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "31:57", "start": 1917.02, "text": "Yeah, well, you can do like, between banks transactions, standard transactions, but usually the fees are much higher, it takes more time, there is more scrutiny, but yeah, there are many parties that are actually using stablecoins to move money for, out and, and in to Paraguay. So for example, there are some real estate investors that are just sending, companies stable coins and gotcha. And so people are like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:26", "start": 1945.78, "text": "buying a property with, like, Tether, that kind of thing. Yes, yeah." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "32:29", "start": 1949.06, "text": "Yes. I, I mean, like, Paraguay is probably one of the few countries that you can actually buy property with, both fiat and, and, and Bitcoin or, or USDT. So which, like, for me as a European, this is just crazy. Like, in Europe, you, you can't just come to the owner and, and, Hey, I'm, I'm buying this property for Bitcoin, or at least not in Czech Republic, where, where I'm from, but, in Paraguay, it's definitely possible and, and you can do it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:57", "start": 1976.8, "text": "Yeah, I'm curious your thoughts, you know, as a Czech guy, looking at what's happening in the EU, you know, it doesn't look good in terms of like where things are going, like the mindset, the regulatory environment, this kind of, even the stuff like, things like, so-called chat control, Even if you have end-to-end encrypted chat apps like Signal and whatever, they wanna now have scanning at the phone level so that it doesn't even matter if your chat app is encrypted. So what are your views on what thing-- on what's going on in the EU from like the Bitcoin and regulatory standpoint?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "33:35", "start": 2015.11, "text": "Yeah, well, it makes me a little afraid, because of course I, I care about Czech Republic still, even though I, I'm a Paraguayan resident, I, I, I live there and I'm building stuff- There, I still feel, the, the pain of my friends, Europeans that, that, are here and wants to stay here. And that's also the reason why more and more people are seeking the Plan B because they see the development of Europe and they see the direction or the trai-trajectory is not great, and many people, many, many things are getting worse, rather than better, so they are seeking, options in case that the situation- More worsen even, even more. And, and of course, with this chat control and, the, the, the privacy issues and, and the, the financial oppression, here in, in Europe, you can't make like high amount transaction without, you know, explaining what is it for. Right. And, and like, isn't" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "34:38", "start": 2078.09, "text": "it certain ca- above a certain value, cash transactions are not like physical cash transactions aren't allowed in the EU, so they, they want to force you to use it through the fiat bank accounts? Then they can easily trace transactions and surveil us all, and this, this seems to be the mindset, right? Exactly." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "34:54", "start": 2094.46, "text": "and the, the problem is the, the majority of the society they actually agree with this, you know? And then you have those like so-sovereign individuals that are basically trapped here, and they are si-seeking solution elsewhere because they, they see they cannot overvote, the majority of the society. But still, I, I, I believe like the situation, I, I'm, I'm trying to- I would be optimistic and I, I think that after what happened during the, the, the COVID, people are starting slowly to, to wake up and they, they are trying to see things more clearly. And, and that's also why we have, for example, in Chile, we have really great, a Bitcoin community here with, with thousands of members. This community is actually much more developed than the Paraguay one, and there are many Bitcoin companies and, and now they, they actually, achieved to, to get a regulation to, to, get like three years period, when if you hold Bitcoin, you don't have to pay tax. Right. This is that new one where if you hold" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:59", "start": 2158.86, "text": "it for three years, there's no CGT. So I think it's, it's become quite popular in the Czech Republic. Yes. Yes. which is, I guess, unusual compared to, if you're comparing Czech Republic versus the rest of EU and Europe even." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "36:12", "start": 2171.61, "text": "Exactly. But still, Czech Republic is part of the European Union, and we have little voice com compared to Germany or France, where the, the majority of societies is, calling for the more, more and more oppression in this sense" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "36:29", "start": 2189.34, "text": "Yes, I think it's, it's gonna be an uphill battle on that side of, like, kind of the, the ideological liberty and cypherpunk aspect of it, but nevertheless, you know, the flag theory aspect of it allows people to go to different places, and we're seeing more, you know, the CBI market is con-continually evolving over time, right? Like we've seen, let's say the Caribbean ones have gone up in price a bit, you know, since, you know, a few- A few years ago, we're seeing, but we're seeing other new entrants into the market there coming. We, we had, there's the El Salvador program for one million, but I think the Malta program has kind of gone away, but it's coming back. It's sort of, it's all kind of Evolving and changing pretty quickly. Do you have any thoughts on where that's going? Because I know these are kind of the circles that you're running in and some of the topics that you're thinking about." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "37:20", "start": 2240.27, "text": "Yeah, exactly. Like, it's unbelievable for me to see the, the development of this market, especially like the, the CBIs. But of course, the problem of the CBI is it's, it's only for high network individuals because the, the investment there, and all the scrutiny and everything is much higher than, for example, the residences, the My company is focusing on. So the, the Flactory is important, but for example, the, the CBIs, it's, it's just, unachievable for the normal people, and we are trying to make Flactory or Sovereign Life Star more accessible for more people, a-and that's where the, the residency stands, because of course, with the residency, you don't get all the benefits like with the citizenship, but still, you have something you're not- Like without the, the, the option. Yeah, you're totally," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:14", "start": 2294.06, "text": "without an option there. And I'm curious from your perspective as well, like I'm sure, you know, in assumption, assumption and stuff. It's, it's one thing to kind of do the flag theory stuff as, single man, and then maybe another level of like, if you're, if you're a couple but without children, but once you start having children, I think that, it does, I mean, it's still possible, but it, it, it is another level of difficulty, wouldn" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:41", "start": 2321.26, "text": "moment in terms of either your income, your wealth, or just kind of your, your grit to kind of, or how flexible you are to sort of do that lifestyle with children, right?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "38:52", "start": 2331.51, "text": "Yeah, definitely. I mean, we also have, families as a, as a clients, for example, but those usually seek the plan B, they just want to, to get the residency and then they go back to their home country and continue living there. But also we have some, some families that for, for example, are considering or, basically moving to, to Paraguay, at this point, but, it's, it's a minority. I mean, there is more and more people actually considering it and, and, and executing it, but, Yeah, I would say the majority of the people, especially the, the people that are seeking the, the tax benefits, those are usually, individuals like digital nomads, they're traveling the world, they are independent, without families. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "39:41", "start": 2381.03, "text": "I see. So let's try to summarize that aspect of it then. So as I'm reading you, you know, tax benefits, right? You can, if you, if you are the kind of person who can work remotely and get paid online, Bitcoin or- Or stable coins or whatever, the tax benefit could be really, be beneficial. I guess this aspect of like being with other like-minded, freedom-minded individuals who are kind of more cypherpunk and/or libertarian, let's say, maybe that's, that's a, a plus side as you've mentioned, just kind of a different lifestyle that, that might be kind of a benefit there. lower cost of living probably, like it's probably a lower cost of living, I, I'm assuming. Now on the, I guess on the downside, it might be like, okay, the infrastructure isn't quite what you may be used to, like if you're a Western listener who's from like one of the rich, you know, America, US, UK, Australia, Canada, Western Europe countries, maybe the lifestyle, you're gonna have to make certain trade-offs in In terms of what you're used to and what you get, what else would you say is kind of, what are the main pros and cons of moving to Paraguay and doing the flag theory aspects?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "40:53", "start": 2453.42, "text": "I would say the important aspect is the, is the community, well, this was something that really caught my attention there because And, and this is why I believe like the Bitcoin communities are so important for the, for the freedom movement, because, even if I'm part of the local community and, and the situation in my home country get worse, I still have so many options where to go, because, you know, you know it from the Bitcoin conferences, like if you run into, any, anyone, ninety-nine percent of the people you will probably have a really good conversation And this is why I think the, the Bitcoin communities are so important because they are communities on Malheira, in, in Paraguay, in El Salvador, in Czech Republic, in, in Germany, in, in, I don't know, Bali, you know? And if, if, shit hits the fan basically, you can go there, you can move there and, and become a part of the community from the day one. And that's very important for me because I want to be surrounded by the like-minded individuals because it helps me grow and it helps me have a good time and live by the purpose." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:04", "start": 2523.98, "text": "Yeah, and that can be both on the fun side of things and also business too, right? That, yeah, there may be business opportunities that come to you by being in some of these areas because the people who come through can be interesting or investors or entrepreneurs themselves or maybe you end up working for or with one of these people or hiring them. Like, I guess there's just kind of different opportunities that can come up when you kind of run into these, into the right circles of entrepreneurs, investors, Bitcoin people, this kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "42:31", "start": 2550.99, "text": "Exactly, exactly. Like, each- Each, each country I was in, it, it, taught me something about myself and about like the way I want to live, because you can basically take the best from, from all the cultures and mix it together and, and, and, and be a happy person. And that's what I, what, what I want to achieve in my life, for example, that I, I want to live by, by the values I, I believe in, not necessarily by the values I was, I was" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:00", "start": 2580.23, "text": "injected" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "43:01", "start": 2580.83, "text": "by" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:01", "start": 2581.07, "text": "the culture I," }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "43:02", "start": 2581.95, "text": "I come from. Gotcha." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:04", "start": 2583.67, "text": "So I guess, I mean, I'm curious to hear from your perspective because there is, as you said, there's a pretty strong Bitcoin community in Czech Republic. So what was the main thing that caused you to say, \"Alright, I'm gonna actually spend most of my time in Asuncion instead of in the Czech Republic\"?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "43:23", "start": 2603.1, "text": "Yeah, of course. well, I was already digital nomad, so for me it wasn't so hard to imagine living somewhere else. Else than my home country, so, this decision wasn't so hard. But of course, I, when I get to Asuncion, I missed the Czech community, I missed the regular meetups, and that was also part of the motivation why, why I co-created the, the Bitcoin Paraguay, because I wanted to create the same environment there, and I saw so many like-minded people that, that were interested in this, so So we made it happen and, and now, we are like, a big family. We are, having, barbecues together, we are having, beer together, having good time. So" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:04", "start": 2643.91, "text": "Fantastic. And we should also talk about, I know you have a conference coming up, and I, I know you invited me, unfortunately I have a clash, so I can't make that. But just for listeners who are either in Paraguay or interested to come visit, tell us a little bit about that. What's the, the conference? What are the dates? what do you, what can people expect to see if they attend?" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "44:22", "start": 2662.34, "text": "Yeah, sure. so on 15, 16 September, we are organizing, Accelerating Bitcoin Conference, which is the So like Samsung Mo, who is coming and, and it's gonna be a headliner, so I'm looking forward to it and, and of course, we want to present a little bit the, the opportunity, that, Paraguay's offer for the freedom seekers, for the bitcoiners, and also the benefits, of Paraguay, for example, a lot of free energy that is there for the, the, the miners and, and, and people that wants to invest in this sector. So, I think Paraguay has- A lot of, a lot to offer and, and this conference is something to showcase all, the benefits in Paraguay brings to the table." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:14", "start": 2714.02, "text": "Excellent. Well, what, by the way, do you have a website for that as well? We should read it out just to, so people know. Yeah, you" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "45:20", "start": 2719.8, "text": "can, you can search at acceleratingbitcoin dot com Fantastic." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:24", "start": 2723.98, "text": "Alright, well, yeah, we'll put the links in the show notes, listeners, you can follow Jan on X and of course, check out, the conference. And, yeah, sorry I can't make it this year, but, maybe in future sometime. thanks for joining us. Maybe the" }, { "speaker": "jan_kotas", "time": "45:38", "start": 2737.93, "text": "next year. Thank you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:39", "start": 2738.97, "text": "very much. And just before we let you go, for the sat hunters out there taking part and hunting for sat, the special seed word, from this episode is lottery. That word is lottery. Thanks, and" } ] }