{ "episodeId": "SLP699", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "matt_mcclintock": { "name": "Matt McClintock", "role": "guest", "tag": "MATT" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.08, "text": "When I started my Bitcoin journey, I was, I was there too, and it's like I, I thought of sovereignty as this binary choice. I thought you're either sovereign or not, and you either have your key, you, you either have your private key material or you don't. It's-- and I think that there's the, as my journey has unfolded, especially the trajectory that I've been on, working with clients with really consequential amounts of wealth in Bitcoin, it's like, wait, this-- there's, there's a much more nuanced spectrum of sovereignty that's involved. And so, You know, I've applied a nuanced spectrum of sovereignty to my own Bitcoin holdings, and a lot of that's just been reflective of the journey I've been on with my clients who have way more Bitcoin than I do, but this idea that, you know, and, and it has been a journey because most of my clients are, are long-term Bitcoin Maxies, you know, the early miners, you know, you name" }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "00:47", "start": 46.64, "text": "it. Hi everyone and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast. Today we're going to be talking about, the sovereignty paradox, and I'm joined today or re-joined today by Matt McClintock. He is the founder and managing director of Bespoke Group. Welcome back to the show, Matt." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:04", "start": 63.97, "text": "Thanks, Stephan. It's great to, great to be here. Thanks for having me back." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "01:07", "start": 67.45, "text": "Yeah, now, I guess part of what, spurred some of this was we were on a panel recently together in Nashville at the Treasury and Custody Summit. And so that was over in Bitcoin Park in Nashville, and that was a really cool panel actually. I think we found, a lot of the audience found a lot of value in that particular panel. and of course, as part of that, I think you shared with me a draft of this paper, which I think has now been released. It's called The Sovereignty Paradox. So let's start there. Why did you write this paper?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:40", "start": 99.5, "text": "yeah, you know, this, this paper was a product of, a few years of, just my, my journey in the space. I, I've, I've had a lot of swirling ideas just along my Bitcoin journey that started in, 2017. And, because of my background as an estate planning attorney from a tax perspective, based here in the United States, I thought that there was an opportunity to- To provide some context, you know, I think this idea of Bitcoin in the context of generational wealth, I just wanted to distill all of my ideas into one place, and, so over the course of a few weeks, I, I put this thing together and, and released this, and I didn't even have a working name until, in, in kind of whiteboarding it with some of my team, they said, you know, what we're really dealing with is the sovereignty paradox, this idea that, that, that is pervasive in the- Bitcoin space about not your keys, not your coins, and, and how that is a new-- there, there's more nuance to this idea of sovereignty than just unilateral key control. And so I wanted to at least add some context from a, from a, more traditional background." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "02:54", "start": 174.37, "text": "I see, yeah. And so I guess in the end, that is, let's say, the paradox, if you will. So of course, the typical Maxi line of, \"Hey, not your keys, not your coins.\" Of course, I, you know, support that. I encourage as many to self-custody as possible. but I think maybe what you're getting at here is some of these other considerations that can play into it, especially when we're thinking about Multi-generational aspects of it or tax planning or maybe asset protection, maybe some privacy benefits, I guess these are some of the things that you, touch on there. Now, funnily enough, I think we were touching on some of these topics in our last podcast, and that was maybe three or four years ago if I, if I recall correctly. So I guess y-your shifting has kind of, your thinking has shifted and evolved a little over that time, I'm sure as well. I'm curious, has your experience with your clients at Bespoke Group also influenced your thinking? In terms of like you've had a client and he thought this way, and then something else shifted, can you explain a bit like how has, I guess your experience with clients shifted the way you think on these questions?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:54", "start": 234.45, "text": "Yeah, I mean, it, it, it has in- Really in, in profound ways. I mean, when I started my Bitcoin journey, I was, I was there too, and it's like I, I thought of sovereignty as this binary choice. I thought you're either sovereign or not, and you either have your key, you, you either have your private key material or you don't. And it's, And I think that there's the, the, as my journey has unfolded, especially the trajectory that I've been on, working with clients with really consequential amounts of wealth in Bitcoin, it's like, w-wait, this, there's, there's a much more nuanced spectrum of sovereignty that's involved. And so, You know, I've applied a nuanced spectrum of sovereignty to my own Bitcoin holdings, and a lot of that's just been reflective of the journey I've been on with my clients who have way more Bitcoin than I do. but this idea that, you know, and, and it has been a journey because most of my clients are, are long-term Bitcoin Maxies, you know, the early miners, you know- You name it. So, they, they've kind of had this idea, this mindset that, you know, if I don't, if I don't control, if I don't unilaterally control the signature authority that manages my Bitcoin, then I'm not truly sovereign. And, we said, okay, well, that's true-- that's, that's true at a point. That's true to the extent you're dealing with transactional- Value, transactional Bitcoin. If and to the extent your Bitcoin is only and only a medium of exchange, then that's, then really sovereignty is defined binary. Do you control it? Do you not control it? when Bitcoin, like any other asset, has- Generation, is, is of generational consequence, and now, you, if you're here in the US or if you're in other jurisdictions and things like capital gains tax applies, gift or estate tax applies, the surtaxes that impact your ability to transact, to transfer wealth from one generation to the next, then your unilateral key control sovereignty has, has taken you out of the part of sovereignty that allows you to- To avoid taxes. if and to the extent you are in a career or you're in a business that exposes you to liability risk because of, you know, business failure, a partner sues you or whatever, if you have unilateral transactional sovereignty over your Bitcoin or your gold or your equities or anything else, then a creditor can grab a hold of those assets that you have sovereign control over and you have surrendered your sovereignty. Over the ability to leverage different strategies to get you more protective and secured outcomes. And the final thing I'll say, you know, on this journey is, okay, if and to the extent you have unilateral sovereign control and through miniscripts, through time locks, through cascading multisigs or whatever, you, you fix the problem of transferring the Bitcoin from yourself to a survivor, if you get hit by a bus or the time lock expires or whatever, and now you move Bitcoin from wallet A that you controlled to wallet B that your wife or kids control. That's great, you have that sovereignty to do that, but what you have now done is you have surrendered the sovereignty that allows you to create a construct that allows your wife, allows your children to grow into that newfound wealth in ways that are responsible, that help them become good stewards, and help them become the best versions of themselves. And so this idea of- Sovereignty, I w-part of, so much of what motivated me in dra-in ref-in drafting this paper was this idea that sovereignty isn't binary. Sovereignty is a-s-it's a series of choices that we make, and we have to revisit that as the value of our assets changes, in this case, Bitcoin, and as, as life changes, as our priorities shift over time. And so, I wanted to kind of expand the definition of sovereignty to contemplate bringing the full- Weight of options to the table in dealing with wealth, and in this case, wealth in the context of Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "08:13", "start": 492.59, "text": "Yeah. And as, of course, many of us hold libertarian views, but nevertheless, we live inside some form of a nation state, and that can involve taxes, unfortunately. And so there is an element there you could point out also on the sovereignty side of, if you- Structure things appropriately if you use the right tools, can you avoid certain taxes, as you mentioned, like gifts and estate taxes in the US and more kind of globally, things like capital gains taxes. Where as a kind of a general rule of thumb, things like people do things like they borrow against some Bitcoin to get fiat and then use that fiat to pay for living expenses or to for investments instead of directly selling Bitcoin for the living expenses. That's one example, right? Yeah. So yeah, and there's--" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:58", "start": 537.78, "text": "Yeah. I wanna double-click on something too. That, you're kind of teasing out a little bit, Stephan, and that is, I think, I, I'm, I'm sure that my clients aren't unique in the space, but They have, many of my clients have achieved a level of, a level of wealth that is, that is beyond their desire for consumption. It exceeds the level that they want to just give to their spouse, their kids, or other people, and they, they start to see that part of the, the inheritance that they leave behind, and this is, this is deeply ingrained in their own libertarian construct as well, which is, which, to which I'm very sympathetic, but it's like, maybe there are ways that I can help make this world a better place through struct- Structured philanthropy, instead of it just going to taxing authorities, or instead of me just dumping wealth in the laps of people who aren't prepared for it, how about I prepare the people for that Bitcoin wealth and for other forms of wealth, and at the same time, part of the inheritance is, driving the causes that mean something to me, whether that is Bitcoin development, as an example, whether that is, inequality of some sort, whether that's economic, racial, gender, you name it, doesn't matter. Solving pr-problems like that, environmental, religious, faith-based, spiritual-based, our clients usually have this realization that, \"Look, I'm not gonna consume all of this wealth during my lifetime, and I certainly don't wanna leave that to my kids. So then, what else can I do? I really don't wanna give it to the government. So then, how do I give it away in ways that are intelligent and tax optimized, efficient, and a- a continuation of my own stewardship?\" Of this wealth that I have been fortunate enough to build." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "10:44", "start": 644.23, "text": "Yeah. So when we're talking about this intergenerational wealth, obviously this is a popular idea within Bitcoin circles, we talk about low time preference and how having children is an extension of our low time preference and that passing things down to our children is, you know, is part of that. I think it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on how, let's say, some of these ultra-high net worth families are thinking about these questions of how to, let's say, prepare That next generation. So if G1 is the, you know, the original hodler or miner or someone, and then G2 is his kids or G3 is his grandkids potentially, how, how are they typically preparing G2 and G3?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:24", "start": 683.92, "text": "It's, we talked about this a little bit in Nashville, but it's, it is a, it is a long and progressive journey. It's an iterative journey. It's the kind of thing that, Your legal strategies, structures, constructs, various types of trusts, other agreements, documentation, that only gets so far. That gets into the legal enforceability of some construct you create. What that doesn't do is, it doesn't raise your kids, and it won't teach them to become decent human beings. It won't teach them about the value of low time preference. It won't teach them about why Something like Bitcoin is a much more responsible way to establish a monetary system, as opposed to a, you know, runaway unconstrained fiat type of structure. and so it starts with, a lot of discovery with G1. I mean, in the Bitcoin space, if you've got significant Bitcoin wealth, you probably are by definition G1, and so, you know, because it's just not been around that long. and so- It's a matter of saying, okay, well, what does Bitcoin mean to you philosophically? What does your wealth mean to you philosophically? What, what drew you into it in the first place? And have them take us on their Bitcoin journey with them, to the extent they're entrepreneurs, take us on that entrepreneurial journey, to the extent they have a spiritual or religious perspective, take us on that journey with you so we can understand, What it is that a-about you that you would want to reverberate in future generations, because the transfer of an asset's not going to carry that echo forward. It's gonna echo, it's gonna carry forward the echo of, of material wealth, but it's not gonna carry forward the echo of who you are and why a guy like Stephan Livera feels so strongly about this. He's gonna make a podcast, he's gonna build his business around this. It's like, take me on that journey. And so- Then we, we say, okay, well, then let's start talking about how we bring your children, your spouse, your other family members, whomever is important to you, how we bring them on that journey in, in what ways. and in, in some cases, when we're dealing with children it, it, it centers around philanthropy, 'cause kids are often, they often have this big worldview and, and they're unconstrained by the things that, that people with gray hair get constrained by. And so they say, \"You know, we're gonna give away ten thousand dollars this year, and, you can't have it. We're not gonna buy XBoxes and toys with that. We're gonna give it away. So who should we give it away to? And why?\" And just, just engage the kids in a conversation like that. You're sitting around the, the table at the holidays or whatever, you know, express your gratitude about your family, express your gratitude for the wealth that you've accumulated, and then start to explore with your family, you know, how, you know, what would hap- what would it look like if we were to give away five thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars? W-why should we do that? And just start to engage the kids in that kind of stuff. As kids get older, they often start to have their own material, ways of kind of thinking in the material world. It's like, it's not just about consumption, but it's like, okay, well, if you had something, how would you make it grow? What would you, if I gave you, if I gave you a thousand dollars to, to invest in? You're not gonna go spend it, and I'm not asking you to give it away, but if you're gonna take a thousand dollars or five thousand dollars or whatever the number is, something small enough to not be material if the kid blows it, but enough to let the kid know that, hey, there's some skin in the game here. So okay, what, what would you do with that? And why? And start to maybe-- you might find that they've got a, a, an in them or just a different way of looking at the world and let them experiment with that, and then if they say, \"Well, I wanna take a thousand dollars worth of Bitcoin and I wanna go buy some fart coin or I wanna go buy, you know, some nonsense like that,\" I think you got a question to say, \"Okay, well...\" You can see what happens, or you can say, \"No, here's why we don't do that kind of nonsense as our family, and here's the, here's the economic reality of Bitcoin versus other assets.\" And so, but it creates these learning opportunities. But as you get the sense, it's like, \"You don't, you can't do that with a trust. You can't wait until you're dead.\" and it doesn't make any sense to wait until your kids are in their thirties or forties or fifties to do that. You need to do--" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:02", "start": 961.99, "text": "Over time in age-appropriate ways and start to kind of find that spark inside of them of what makes them tick, because that's also showing them what's important to you. It's, it's more than-- that you are more than your balance sheet. You are more than any particular ideology, you are, you are a much more complicated person. And so bringing your kids into conversations like that gives them the ability to see you as their father, as their mother, as the, as the inspiration of the family wealth and, and what has driven you to become who you are." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "16:37", "start": 996.74, "text": "This episode is brought to you by CoinKite, the makers of my favorite Bitcoin hardware wallet, the Coldcard Q. Now some people think self-custody is too hard, but it's really about taking responsibility for your Bitcoin. Bitcoin wealth and understanding that self custody gives you a true feeling of liberty. The cold card Q has a full keyboard and big screen, it's got two secure elements and a true air gap, allowing you to go fully air gapped using QR codes from seed generation to transaction signing. You can power the device using three triple A batteries, so you don't even have to plug it into the wall for power. You can easily use it with Sparrow wallet for PC or Nunchok on mobile, and you can dial it into the right level of security and complexity that you choose. If you want a simple setup," }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "17:16", "start": 1035.9, "text": "Last phrases, easy. If you wanna add multisig or co-signing features, you've got those too. So go to coinkite dot com, use code livera to get ten percent off on your cold card or other devices and level up your self-custody today. So it sounds like part of that is coaching and guidance and education while G2 is still young, let's say, if you, you know, if you can, if you, you know, depending on how old you are and how old they are, and Maybe some of that is also just having earlier exposure to financial concepts, right? Because I know in some families, in some cultures, maybe it's seen as like, I don't know, not rude, but it's just sort of seen like, you don't talk about money. Whereas other cultures, right? Right. And then in other cultures, maybe it is seen as like, you know, you just openly talk about money, you just say, okay, this is how much the family has, and this is how you manage it, and make sure you earn more than you spend, and just kind of" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:12", "start": 1091.76, "text": "Yeah, it is, and I'll tell you that, it's been my experience on my eight year journey to date with Bitcoin is that Bitcoiners seem like they are well primed for this kind of conversation. You talked about the low time preference, we've mentioned that before, but it's also, the Bitcoiners that we, that we get to work with are already kind of thinking generationally anyway, and I guess that is kind of again the echo of time preference, but, they, they perceive something broken in money. And they see something broken in markets, and they perceive something broken in governance, and they want to do something different, and they've, they've gotten into something different in the form of Bitcoin, and it, for-- I think for most Bitcoiners, it can, it becomes all-consuming. I think it's part of my own journey was bringing my wife into the conversation when Bitcoin became an, a material part of my business and our own wealth You know, I had to have a conversation with her about what Bitcoin is and why I have such high conviction about Bitcoin, and that, that was now a conversation from a few years ago. But I was, I was kinda nervous about that conversation with my wife because it's like, she's, is she gonna see me as a kook? and, but then I decided, you know, it, it doesn't really matter how she sees me in this. It's like this is economically material for us now as a family. Right. I'm not going to change I'm not gonna continue to hide this exposure to, from my wife, and so I brought her along that journey, and now she's, I mean, she's now deeply committed, as am I, and, and my kids as well. So, Yeah, you're right. I mean, there are cultures, and there are certainly even within cultures, there are some families that," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:59", "start": 1199.31, "text": "transparency and, openness was just not modeled to them, and so they don't know how to do it. but that's part of the journey that we take people on is, is helping them kind of get comfortable with, with their story and then start to carry that forward into the family's lives. And then you start wrapping that story in, legal- Really sound structures that then can reinforce, in a, in a legal construct that's, that's reliable and resilient and tax optimized and asset protected and highly private and all that good stuff, you can then create the frameworks that reinforce the culture that you've built inside of your family. But the frameworks without the culture, don't usually end very well." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "20:46", "start": 1246.36, "text": "Now, the last time we spoke on the podcast, off the top of my head, I think it was three or four years ago, so, you know Bitcoin number has gone up, right? Like it's gone up a lot since that time. how does that change things for any of your clients, like when, you know, when the number has gone up dramatically? I mean, over, over the last three or four years, I don't know, off the top of my head, it's probably hit like Maybe fifteen x or something, I mean, just depending on the timing. I mean, it's got to," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:12", "start": 1271.54, "text": "it must have, yeah. well, again, it kind of, it speaks to the iterative nature of, of this- process, it, it speaks to the relationship, which is why we've done what we've done, the, the, the company that we have built is based on relationships and just iterative planning over time. but It, I, I would say it's changed in a couple of different ways. I mean, one, their wealth has gone up ten x, fifteen x, whatever the number is. Okay, that's, that's material. their tax exposure has gone up Considerably. they now have, you know, they're well past what they thought was escape velocity. They probably, they were probably already close to escape velocity back then, and now- So by the way, what" }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "21:58", "start": 1317.81, "text": "do you mean by escape velocity" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:59", "start": 1319.04, "text": "there? They've gotten to the point where they don't have to really worry anymore at all about working or about what their assets do. They've re-che- they've, they've achieved a level of material wealth in fiat Construed terms to say, you know what, I've got mine, I'm fine. You know, I don't have, you know, my, my wealth far exceeds my consumptive needs. and so it's like- Why bother? It's like the number can go up a hundred times. It's like all it's gonna do is just add another zero. So, that's what I mean by escape velocity. But now it's like a matter of, they say, \"Okay, well now...\" I can do so much more with, with this. It's like, yeah, there's more complexity, there's more risk in some cases to being-- certainly if you're seen as somebody who's wealthy in the Bitcoin space, you gotta be really careful about security and stuff like that, and, and just optics. but they say, you know, now what I, what I used to do, how I used to think about my wealth, I can do so much more with that for my society, for my faith, whatever it is. That most- motivates them, and it, again, it just, it just kinda draws us even deeper into that relationship and the tax consequences just get that much more severe when they start looking to reposition. And, and you and you and I've talked- Even today, but previously about borrowing against Bitcoin, and I think that that's certainly an option. but for some of these folks, it's like, I don't really want the number to go up anymore. It's like I've kind of capped How much wealth I want to have. So I probably do want to rotate into other things. And so, a-and maybe I just don't want to deal with the complexity of carrying a loan to value and making sure I top up before I get liquidated and whatever. It's like maybe I just don't want to deal with the heartburn that goes along with borrowing as my Bitcoin. So then, and I'm philanthrop- and, and I'm philanthropic anyway. So then maybe I want to start thinking about some charitable structures that I can run with Bitcoin, so that I can- Give my Bitcoin wealth to charitable causes I care about, educate my charitable causes I care about about Bitcoin, about what Bitcoin has meant to me, about what Bitcoin can mean to them, help them hold Bitcoin on a charitable endowment balance sheet so now you can start to orange pill The charitable endowment world, that becomes something that clients get very interested in as the number continues to trend up." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "24:35", "start": 1475.4, "text": "So also in your paper, you outline some different key management strategies, like these are some of the well-known ones, are obviously things like, you know, leaving it on an exchange or- A hot wallet, you know, on a phone as an example, or a single signature hardware wallet, or multi-signature collaborative custody, or like qualified custodian. Can you just outline a little bit of your thoughts on some of those different strategies and how you, you know, how you see, how you see those and how they can fit into a person's strategy?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:04", "start": 1504.26, "text": "Yeah, yeah, I think, again, this is part of just the, the journey I've been on as a, as a Bitcoiner and as a wealth strategist for the last eight years or so, You know, the, the way we think about this is probably a Bitcoiner with significant wealth probably has to have a little bit of all of these things in play. like, I mean, I've got hot wallets because I keep buying Bitcoin. I mean, I can't help myself. And so I just, you know, I've got a hot wallet set up, and so I've got my auto buy. And so- I'm okay leaving that, leaving a few sats in there until they accumulate before I then sweep it into something different. So it's like, you know, I keep enough. You know, I, I, it's not like I intentionally, I don't send Bitcoin to a hot wallet, but I accumulate Bitcoin in a hot wallet through exchanges that I buy Bitcoin off of. and so, like, I use River. That's just-- I don't know if you have any relationship with him, I don't really care, but that's just super easy for me. So it's like, I just set, set my DCA, buy Sats every week, and then, once a month or every couple months, whatever, I'll sweep that into something else. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:19", "start": 1579.1, "text": "And if I've, if I've been out to the pub with some friends and I've bought a round on Bitcoin, maybe I need to top up my phone wallet so I can sweep it from my DCA exchange wallet to a phone wallet if I need to top up my Sats for coffee shops or pubs or whatever. but then If I have enough sitting there, maybe I'll sweep that into a multisig that's owned by my revocable living trust, so that if something happens to me, when something happens to me, my wife or whomever else the signatories are on that multisig, to the extent that's aligned with how I've designed my trust, they can manage the Bitcoin inside my revocable living trust, and a multisig is perfect for that because what it does is it just creates a succession protocol so that if the, if the owner of the asset- That gets hit by a bus, then those remaining signatories can continue to manage the Bitcoin, in this case, on behalf of the revocable trust that I would have had to manage the other rest, the rest of my assets. But a multi-sig isn't gonna help me from an asset protection or tax optimization perspective. So the biggest part of my stack and the biggest part of my client stack is going to be in something that is a cold qualified store-qualified custo- Sovereignty, Paradox, UHNW, Bitcoiners, Bitcoin, Lightning, Taproot, multisig, xPub, Satoshi, Stephan Livera, Matt McClintock, Matt, McClintock Represent the entity on behalf of the person who created the entity, and that fiduciary has to be able to control the assets inside the structure, whether it's gold, Bitcoin, real estate, equities, doesn't matter, the fiduciary has to be the one who can control that. And so then, do you want your fiduciary to have just a single signature wallet control? Probably not, because then you don't have any continuity, you don't have any protection against a bad actor if your fiduciary turns out to be, you know, A fraud. multisig's not gonna work for that unless your fiduciary controls the quorum, and then again, you're probably no better off than if the fiduciary had single sig. So then you look at something like a qualified custodian, so that you at least have the backstop of a regulated financial institution to say, okay, well, if my fiduciary twists off, the custodian, has the assets. If the custodian fails, you've got the backstop of the regulators to protect the assets inside that store. structure. And it's not, it's not ideal from a Bitcoin sovereignty perspective. I get that. but that is what it takes when you have an asset like Bitcoin operating in a world that is still Subject to and constrained by fiat rules, you have to apply the fiat rules if you want to get the fiat outcomes from those rules. If you don't care about the fiat outcomes, if you don't care about the asset protection and tax and generational wealth transition, then you don't have to worry about this. But if, if and to the extent these things are priorities, you have to apply the, the kind of the normie structures that are gonna give you the outcomes that are recognized in the normie world." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "29:47", "start": 1787.36, "text": "Yeah, and I think the way I'm understanding there is, it's not even an all or nothing question, right? That you could keep some in different wallets and some of it can be in the fiat normie setups. And so people are, let's say, keeping one foot in both worlds, and sort of managing things in different ways because they might have different wallets and different setups and, you know, whatever." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:08", "start": 1807.57, "text": "Absolutely. And to maintain the ability to continue to shift your weight around on those different feet in different worlds. It's like there may be some times when you want more in the fiat This normie world, and there may be times that we aren't less in there, and so that's not for me to decide, but that's for me to help advise on the consequences of those decisions. And so you say, \"Well, you know, maybe, you know, maybe I'm not comfortable yet bringing a significant amount of my wealth into this construct yet.\" Fine, don't. but do think about, okay, well, what happens if, when something ultimately happens to you? Or is your Bitcoin ownership prepared for that type of transition, and are the recipients of that wealth prepared for that type of, that type of outcome? And if the answer is yes, then that's, that's great. but if the answer is no, then we start to explore, okay, what would it take to, to get them there? Part of it's education about Bitcoin, part of it's edu-education about their values, as we've been talking about. So, but you're right, it's, it's never, it's, it's never all or nothing ever. Even within that all or n- even within that spectrum of opportunity, it's, it's a constantly shifting spectrum." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "31:19", "start": 1878.68, "text": "Yeah. one other question that probably a lot of listeners will be thinking is, what about like a kind of a centralization risk, right? As I'm sure you know, a lot of the ETFs, I don't know the exact number, but it's like eight of eleven or nine of the eleven US Bitcoin ETFs, they're with Coinbase custody, right? And so there's kind of an obvious, and even some of the treasury companies, right? There's To, let's say, four or five big name custodians that a lot of people are keeping their coins at. So does that represent a centralization risk to you? How do you think about that and how are your clients seeing that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:51", "start": 1910.62, "text": "Yeah, with def- I mean, no question. I mean, I think you've really zeroed in on a huge issue. this is one of the reasons why we use global, globally distributed qualified custodians for one. You don't have to be US based to be a qualified custodian. we use qualified custodians all over the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:10", "start": 1930.03, "text": "We help clients kind of with the analysis of, okay, well, how much concentration do you wanna have, not just at one custodian, but within one jurisdiction, because not only do you have centralized custodial risk, you have centralized regulatory risk as well. And we are just now kind of in a In a season of a fairly open regulatory regime inside the United States, this conversation might be very different if it was three years ago. This conversation may be very different three years from now. So, again, this, this gets to the idea of a changing landscape. so when you've got certainly hundreds of millions of dollars worth of wealth in any particular asset. Let's say, let's say this gold. Are you gonna have all of your gold in one bunker in Switzerland? Probably not. You should probably have part of that in a bunker in Switzerland, part of that someplace else, and maybe another part of it in yet a different jurisdiction, distributed geographically so that in the case of a physical asset like gold or artwork or whatever, a-- like a, a climatic shock Wouldn't take out all of your wealth, or even a regulatory shock wouldn't take all of, all of your wealth out. So yeah, we, whether we're dealing with conventional assets, you know, we, you know, we're a full service RIA as well, and so we do traditional asset investing for clients, it just so happens that most of our clients built a tremendous amount of wealth in Bitcoin, but regardless of what the assets are, we encourage them to spread them around in different types of structures for different types of outcomes, different types of foundations. or trusts or LLCs or whatever for different types of outcomes. We encourage them to use different custodians for different types of technology risks, whether it's multi-sig versus HSM versus something else. Have their Bitcoin in cold storage, unilateral cold storage multisig, hot wallets as we've talked about, but then also distributed geographically so that in the event there is a turning, of a Political climate, or a regulatory, like an adverse regulatory outcome, they're just not all stuck in one thing. It's about keeping options open." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "34:29", "start": 2069.2, "text": "Yeah, and I think as-- I think to your point about how the situation will change in three years from now, right? As we said, there's probably a few big name custodians that probably everyone can think of, you know, like Coinbase custody and, I don't know, BitGo and Anchorage and, maybe Nidiq, maybe, I don't know, a few others out there, Fidelity Digital But hopefully it sort of decentralizes out over time and that we have, you know, in three years' time, five years' time, ten years' time, there's actually a lot of high-level pro-grade custodians who can handle this kind of thing. So that way it's at least not all concentrated into, let's say, Coinbase custody." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:05", "start": 2105.1, "text": "Yeah. Or in the United States. you know, this is gonna take, Legislation and regulatory evolution in, in other parts of the world. I'd be interested to know what, GCC is doing, what UAE may be doing, There are jurisdictions that we just wouldn't touch, like we're, we're not, we're, we're probably never gonna do anything in mainland China, never gonna do anything in Russia, because, you know, we, we prefer, we will only go to jurisdictions that have a really well-established rule of law Where we know that there's some predictability, there are safeguards in place that, that protect private property. and I, I am optimistic, Stefan, I think that we're-- I think that we will get there in the Bitcoin space. I do think that we're probably gonna need a washout of the larger kind of crypto noise that's in the, that's in the space, but as I think, as that washout does occur, I think we're gonna see Again, some nuanced, well thought-through regulations around Bitcoin as an asset, and then how that can inform reliable- Cold storage qualified custody options. Switzerland already has some in place, Liechtenstein has some in place, the Bahamas, Canada, Singapore, there are qualified custodians already all around the world, and we work with a number of them. but it's still a lot smaller than your custodians for equities or something else. Yeah, just-- Again, man, we're just how early we are. We've been here sixteen years, I mean, that's it." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "36:44", "start": 2203.92, "text": "Yeah, it's fascinating to see how quickly, kind of, well, I guess it's this, we sort of see these cycles that we've seen in Bitcoin and, you know, every time we've kind of had a washout or whatever, and then that kind of, you know, like can scare people away, right? And then you get another round of building, and it seems like now we're obviously we're kind of in a building round, and we'll see kind of where things go there. So, in terms of, I guess there's different form, like we've been talking a little bit, obviously from Bitcoin perspective, but even in a Bitcoin perspective, there's different ways of having Bitcoin exposure, right? Like obviously you can hold Bitcoin, you know, on chain in your multisig, you could hold- Mining, you could have mining companies or mining equities, and some of them have kind of seen a big pump recently. you could be in the, you could be doing the whole public, you know, treasury company play, the, you know, or you could be invested into Bitcoin startups. so how are, you know, how are you thinking about that and how are some of your clients thinking about that, in terms of like, let's say their Bitcoin portfolio? You know, how are they thinking about kind of allocating to those buckets, if you will?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:51", "start": 2271.14, "text": "Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's a really fascinating time to be in the space for all the reasons that you've mentioned. I mean, there's so many different ways to get exposure to Bitcoin beyond owning Bitcoin. Most of the clients that we get to work with, they built their wealth by accumulating large quantities of Bitcoin early, and as the Bitcoin ecosystem has evolved, they, they are experimenting with these, with these things, and, whether they're various derivations of strategy or other treasury companies, private investments to help develop the Bitcoin ecosystem, we just help them understand what the, what the trade-offs are. It's like you're taking- Taking, you're taking a perfectly liquid, pristine asset. It's a bearer asset, you can go around the world with it, you've got immediate liquidity, you've got twenty four seven, three sixty five price transparency to this, and you're trading that for something else. And so, if and to the extent you're trading that for something else, just do it with your eyes wide open. If you're, if you're going to liquidate Bitcoin to or contribute Bitcoin, which in the United States is still gonna be treated as a recognition event from a tax perspective, you're gonna Trade that Bitcoin for either dollars to invest in a Bitcoin private investment or if you can contribute Bitcoin in, that's still gonna be a taxable event for you. You're taking an asset that is perfectly liquid, as we've said, priced transparent, bearer asset, sovereignly owned, and you're trading that for something that's less than that. What are you getting in the trade? and is what you're getting in the trade worth it? So part of what you're getting in the trade, you measure in economic terms. You know, am I gonna get a better return in my private investment or in a, derivative strategy or in a You know, in a mining stock. So part of it's measuring it economically, and part of it's just qualitatively. It's like, you know what? Maybe part of how I'm gonna measure the success of this investment isn't necessarily in direct economic terms, but in the build out of the ecosystem. Okay, great, that's part of how you measure your return. So, and part of it's, I want to experiment with these, with the strategy or these derivations of, of equity. Great. understand that there's, you're getting, there's Probable higher risk and there's a probable higher return, so there's part of the economic trade-off. If you want to encourage more companies to add Bitcoin to the balance sheet because you think it's a responsible thing for companies to do, then by all means. Engage in those types of things. One of the things that I personally do, and that I've seen other clients do, is when they have just free cash on hand, either from the distribution or whatever, it's like rather than just sit in cash, and, and maybe rather than just buy more Bitcoin with that, park it in one of the ETFs, because, you know, it's-- you still have the, it's, it's almost as liquid as cash, but you're getting exposure to the Bitcoin price. And so, and at the same time, At the same time, you're probably less, emotional, maybe, maybe that's not the right word, but you're less, you're less committed to holding that long term than you would be to holding Bitcoin long term. I get, I mean, that's just one of the way I-- one of the ways I think about it. I mean, yes, I still buy Bitcoin every week, but then when I've got loose cash, then I'm just gonna kind of sit in a liquid position for a while. I'll usually just buy an ETF, I can just buy it through my broker's account and just sit on that cash, but that cash is indexed against the Bitcoin price instead of against the US dollar price. So then when I need to use that cash or reallocate that for something else, then I can just put My ETF shares go right back to dollars, and meanwhile, I've benefited from the ride of the Bitcoin volatility. So, that's kind of how we think about applying- A broader, like, Bitcoin wealth management construct, beyond just the Bitcoin native blockchain, Bitcoin, yeah. Yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "42:02", "start": 2522.06, "text": "Now, I'm also curious, yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:04", "start": 2524.12, "text": "going. Yeah, the, the one other thing I'd like to mention on this is that there are other things that people want to invest in that are, that evoke some of the same values of Bitcoin. It's like-" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "42:20", "start": 2539.51, "text": "You know, it's like, okay, well, the Bitcoin thing has been great, I'm still long Bitcoin, all of my clients still are very long Bitcoin on a significant part of their portfolios, but they say, you know what? Now I want to get-- I want to get some exposure to assets that perform differently than Bitcoin, but that are-- that represent some of the same values that Bitcoin means to me, like, again, fiscal re-fiscal restraint or, scarcity, things like that. and I'm not really talking so much about physical gold, although there are some that, that do that, but things like, I want to invest in companies that have a, a big moat around them that, it'd be very difficult for competition to come in and it's priced and yields dividends in something that's more resilient than the US dollar. So maybe I want to get into some Singapore equities and, and earn Singapore dollars instead of US dollars. Maybe I want to invest in, Swiss equities, and earn-- and, and have my investments denominated in the franc and have my dividends earned in the franc, which is much more resilient than the US dollar. So as, as the dollar continues its, you know, decline, gradual and inevitable, sometimes more rapid than others. Not only do I hold an asset like Bitcoin that is resilient against dollar devaluation, I also want to hold other assets that are resilient against dollar devaluation, but in ways that aren't necessarily correlated to what Bitcoin might be doing at any given time." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "43:53", "start": 2633.38, "text": "I see, yeah. So it's kind of just a general diversification idea of, you know, holding th-th- something that ziggs while the other thing zags. You got it. and then, there's been a lot of interest in the whole lending thing recently, so I think that's part of it, like you mentioned, even with the ETFs, some of the platforms are offering like lower borrowing cost against ETFs compared to borrowing cost against Bitcoin, and so maybe there's a reason for people to do that. I've heard there's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:20", "start": 2659.7, "text": "gonna be a We're still in early, in, in early days in that, but I'm really op-- that's one of the things I'm very optimistic about as the space evolves. And we've even had conversations with our local JP Morgan folks to say, you know, we couldn't loan against Bitcoin, but we can loan against the ETFs. And so as we start to see some of the ETFs, allow for in-kind contributions of Bitcoin in exchange for ETF shares, we believe that this is gonna open up an opportunity for Bitcoiners to be able to borrow against their Bitcoin On much more commercially reasonable terms than just using a Bitcoin, like a direct Bitcoin backed loan where you're paying an origination fee, you're paying double digit, interest, usually in the low teens, low to mid-teens interest rate if you're taking just like a Bitcoin backed loan. if you can, if you can contribute that in kind to an ETF, now you've got just an ETF portfolio at Some traditional custodian, now you've got a much broader universe of lenders that are gonna lend against the ETFs. It doesn't make any sense, and, you know, for those of us who know Bitcoin, I would rather borrow against-- I'd rather loan, I'd rather loan against Bitcoin than loan against the ETF. But, you know, the, the big lenders don't- Yeah, I guess" }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "45:40", "start": 2739.82, "text": "again, that's a maturation thing, right? Maybe over time as the market for that matures and even the lending rate available on some of these platforms, whether it's, you know, Lendin or Strike or Unchained or whoever else, Lava, whoever else, maybe that rate will come down over time too. It will, it will have to as" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:56", "start": 2755.92, "text": "competition enters the space. It's just-" }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "45:59", "start": 2759.44, "text": "Yeah, I see. so, one other area, I think you briefly mentioned this, but around some of the miniscript stuff as well. Do you, do you see that being a future evolution for some of these strategies? So again, it's not an all or nothing. Maybe one of your buckets, you're using some fancy miniscript conditions that relate to inheritance or that relate to recovery, or insurance, so for some of these, let's say, holistic wealth management reasons. It could make sense to use some of these miniscript things, something like an anchor watch or something like that in the future." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "46:34", "start": 2793.86, "text": "I, I think so, and I've got to be really careful to not get too far out of my skis on miniscripts, because I know it gets, we, we get into stuff that I'm just not competent to discuss at, at great length, but I understand them conceptually. And so, so yes, I do think they, they play a role. and again, this gets back to your point, it's, none And it's a matter of understanding the impact of those decisions and then just making those decisions with your eyes wide open, because, a lot of people who simply-- in conversations that I have, you know, I, like you, I go around to a lot of conferences, have a lot of conversations, You know, a lot of people who are the hardcore Bitcoiners, and I, I, you know, I kind of fancy myself among them, they, they think that miniscripts and time locks and that's the solution to all their problems, and it's not. I mean, it's-- that is a solution to some problems, but it leaves other things completely unaddressed. and the, the other side of it is structured- You know, fiat recognized legal structures with qualified custody, yeah, it solves a lot of problems, but it doesn't solve all the problems. It doesn't solve the transactional sovereignty problem. and so it's like, it, it is, it, it-- I think we have to be-- we have to have enough of an opened mind, open mindset to realize that, again, back to this idea that sovereignty isn't binary. These solutions aren't-- it isn't either this or that, it is both. Both and, and, you know, that's the journey that we, that we want to encourage people to take." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "48:21", "start": 2901.46, "text": "Yeah. one other area, Just around the tax savings. So you mentioned, now this is maybe a US specific thing, and I have listeners around the world, but let's talk in the US, example. What kind of tax savings are we talking about from a, a gift or estate tax purpose or, yeah, from a gift or estate tax?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:42", "start": 2922.45, "text": "Yeah, I mean, I, I love this is my, this is my happy place. I mean, I love this, I, I love this part of it because this is, this was my entire career before I got into Bitcoin. so The first thing to, I mean, there's less-- in the United States, there are so many opportunities for the IRS to take a bite out of your apple, to leave you nothing but the core at the end of it. You know, you've got, if I, if I pay you, if, if we're both sitting here in the United States and I pay you for services, or I buy something from you in Bitcoin That is, Bitcoin become-- it's, it's a, it's a transfer of property, and so you have to report that as ordinary income to you, and the, at the spot value of Bitcoin, the quantity of sats that I sent you in dollar terms, you have to report that as your income, and you have to pay income taxes on that. And I have to then calculate and report and pay capital gains tax liability on the difference between what Bitcoin was worth when I- Gave it to you, and what I acquired that Bitcoin for. So if I bought Bitcoin at a hundred dollars, and then I gave it to you, or, you know, we transacted when Bitcoin was a thousand dollars, I'm going to have to calculate my capital gains tax on the value of the difference between the value of the Sats when I got them and the value of the Sats when I transacted with them. Massive pain in the butt, but that's the way the tax code works. and that's like the first lens of tax. Another lens of tax is, okay, I want to wholecoin my children. Okay, well, Bitcoin is trading currently at about one hundred and fifteen thousand dollars per token right now. If I wanted to give my kids a whole coin right now I would, when I transfer from my wallet to their wallet, doesn't matter if it's in a structure or not, that would be a gift recognition event. Currently under US law, there is a $19,000 annual gift exem-exemption. I don't even have to report the first $19,000, but the amount above that, I would have to then report as a taxable gift. Now, whether or not I have to pay tax tax on that, that's a secondary question. But it's, it's the amount that's reportable as a gift. Then, if I have available gift tax exemption left, starting in January of twenty twenty-six, I'll have a fifteen million dollar gift tax exemption So the, the amount above my annual gift exemption would be subject to my lifetime gift exemption. Okay? So that's fine. I would still have to report it on a tax return, disclose to the IRS that I made that transfer, but I probably wouldn't have to actually pay tax on that. It would just erode my lifetime gift exemption. But Let's say I've got tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars, and I want to make some really large gifts to something that's not a charitable deduction. Maybe I want to create a dynasty trust for the benefit of my family. A dynasty trust is one of these irrevocable trusts that's built to last for many, many generations. It becomes like this bedrock or this engine of family wealth. Maybe I want to put fifty million dollars in a dynasty trust like that. Well, I mean, there are lots of ways that we can create leverage inside of our gifting regimes to, you know, to optimize the use of our gift tax exemption. But let's say that, you know, I've got a-- Let's say that my wife and I create a dynasty trust for our descendants. So I've got a fifteen million dollar exemption, my wife's got a fifteen million dollar exemption, so together we've got thirty. If we just put fifty million dollars into a dynasty trust, the first thirty wipes out our gift tax exemption, the next twenty million would be then subject to federal gift tax at the rate of forty percent, so forty cents on the dollar would go to the IRS" }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "52:55", "start": 3175.1, "text": "during my" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:56", "start": 3175.98, "text": "lifetime. Not a great outcome, not really what I'm looking for. But let's, that's the way it goes. Then, when I later die, let's say I've got another hundred million dollars of Bitcoin when I die. I don't have any more state tax exemption left 'cause I used it up in these gifts to the dynasty trust. So of that hundred million dollars, the IRS is gonna get forty million of that hundred million dollars, and my kids are gonna get sixty. And people, you know, I know Bitcoiners don't think about this, but a lot of normies say, \"Oh yeah, no, sixty million bucks is plenty.\" Yeah, it's not the sixty, it's where's the forty going? And so, so it's, so we, we start thinking about, okay, well, how can we optimize around these tax outcomes? And there, the, I guess the benefit is there, there's an entire cottage industry in United States based estate planning that allows you to ultimately, through a combination of charitable giving and elaborate, traditional non-charitable Structuring, you can often transfer out tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars in gift and estate tax exempt structures, but you don't do it with miniscripts, and you don't do it with just, you know, trying to bypass The tax code. I mean, you can use the tax code as points of leverage against the IRS, but, you know, miniscripts or just kind of making sure that somebody can find your seed phrase, that doesn't, that doesn't get the-- that doesn't get your beneficiary out of the legal obligation of the tax code. And so, That's, that's kind of the tax side of the structure. Yeah. But then there, there's so many elaborate ways that you can sell Bitcoin in a tax efficient environment, and then with the proceeds from those tax efficient sales, invest in things that are maybe even income tax exempt through things like private placement life insurance wrapped inside of a dynasty trust. I mean, there's so many ways you can layer strategy upon strategy upon strategy. Take advantages of multiple jurisdictions, both in the United States and abroad, and, and do it all with Bitcoin. and that, and that's the pioneering that we did, that's, that's taken us to where we are now." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "55:17", "start": 3317.1, "text": "Yeah, fascinating. So basically, if you think ahead from, like, I guess for an American high net worth or ideally ultra high net worth person, if you think ahead on gift and estate taxes, it could mean a difference of like twenty, thirty, forty percent more that goes to your heirs or to your chosen Funds or like philanthropy, philanthropic purposes as opposed to going to the state. Basically, it's like in that range." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "55:41", "start": 3341.32, "text": "Yeah, that's, that's exactly right, Stefan. I mean, the, we, we like to say, which is, which, I mean, this is defensible. The gift in estate tax is entirely voluntary. you, you know, you can, there are so many ways you can plan around it, so many ways, but you have to plan around it, and that means you have to use fiat recognized, normie legal structures with your Bitcoin Wealth in order to get the fiat recognized normie outcomes that you're wanting. You know, if, if we were only living in a Bitcoin standard, if we're only living in a Bitcoin world, we don't care about taxes, we don't care about, fiat rules. But we-- But that's not reality. I mean, we, we, we can live on a Bitcoin standard, but we live in a fiat world. And so, The, the beautiful thing is, you know, once we embrace that reality, we can bring the full weight of options that the fiat world brings into the Bitcoin space. And this is really-- and then when you have recognized family wealth structures That are now running on Bitcoin instead of running on dollars, or running on Bitcoin instead of running on equities, or running on Bitcoin instead of running on real estate or whatever. And again, not to the exclusion of those things, but now you infuse those strategies with Bitcoin. Now you're really supercharging family wealth for, for generations, and you're supercharging philanthropy in ways that, those charities otherwise couldn't even dream of." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "57:12", "start": 3431.92, "text": "Yeah, so as you said, I think it's, it's important to understand it's not an all or nothing thing, and it's understanding, right, you know, the classic kind of idea of pick the right tool for the job, so that's probably, at least the way I'm understanding it, and I guess last question, what are some of the big pitfalls that you have seen, in some And family office kinds of situations. What are the big pitfalls and how can, listeners who, you know, let's say they're hodlers and they belie- like, we all believe numbers going up, so many of the listeners, if they're not already there, they might be there in ten or twenty years' time, who knows? So, what are the big pitfalls to avoid?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "57:49", "start": 3468.92, "text": "I'd say one of the biggest pitfalls is thinking that this, this idea of structuring is a task that you just check off the list and you're done. when you've got tremendous amounts of wealth It just, it's part of, it's part of the journey. So you're saying" }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "58:03", "start": 3482.76, "text": "it's like an ongoing thing?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "58:04", "start": 3483.92, "text": "It is. I mean, at some point, the family wealth becomes the family business. Because like managing this family wealth across generations, it's its own business. and that's, that is a challenge that Bitcoiners, especially people who built their wealth in Bitcoin, or, and it's, it's not unique to Bitcoin, we just happen to do it in the Bitcoin space. But when, when families come into a tremendous amount of wealth over a fairly short period of time That can be shocking to the system. It's like, wait a second, I'm just a normal dude, you know, I just happen to have a lot of Bitcoin. Okay, well, y-yeah, you are a normal dude with a lot of Bitcoin, but now you've got so much wealth in there that the wealth becomes its own- Enterprise. And so you have to, you know, helping people understand that they can bring the same level of entrepreneurship and structure and preparation and planning to the family wealth As they would to building any other business, and this becomes the family business. So then grow-- then training the next generation to run that family business, which is the management of the family wealth through all of its structures, through making sure it is consumed intelligently and used appropriately and given away intelligently, that is its own thing. And that is, I mean, frankly, it's a pain in the ass for a lot of people. but when the alternative is pay forty percent to the federal government or just dump it unconstrained on people who aren't ready for it and, and watch them blow up, blow themselves up, that's not a great outcome either. So, I think the biggest pitfall is probably or, or maybe, maybe the biggest challenge is helping people get their head around the reality of having wealth of this magnitude, and that now it's time to apply more sophisticated thinking, to this wealth as its own enterprise." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "59:58", "start": 3598.39, "text": "Excellent. Well, yeah, I think there was a lot of really interesting insights for listeners there. and, I mean, just like that panel that we did in, Nashville, we had a lot, a lot of, the audience were coming up and saying, \"Yeah, this is like stuff we haven't heard before. This isn So, so hopefully, you know, listeners got some value out of it, some useful tidbits or insights or ideas on how they manage things for themselves, whether they are Americans or whether they are from somewhere else in the world. And, yeah, before we let you go, Matt, where can people follow you online and, find out more about your work, get the paper, or find you at Bespoke Group?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:00:34", "start": 3634.01, "text": "Yeah, thanks. yeah, one thing, so one thing I, I do wanna zero in on is this isn't limited to US people. We've to the United States, like some of the, I think the tax stuff is going to the United States. But the issues of preparing generations for transformational wealth, that's a universal human issue. And so, doesn't matter where people are, we can work with people wherever they happen to be. we've got non-US clients, we've got non-US citizen clients, we've got non-US residents clients, we've got staff all over the world, so yeah, we're, we're a global company. people can find me, I'm still on LinkedIn It's just, LinkedIn, it's just, I think my handle is just McClintock Matt or something like that, but if you just index Matt McClintock against bespoke group on LinkedIn, you'll find me. I'm, I'm intermittently on X, at, at McClintock underscore m. I'm not there very often. I've recently started a Substack, so you can find me on Substack as well. the sovereignty paradox white paper, as well as other thought leadership that we do, we just-- that's available on our website require you to enter an email address or anything like that, the information's just out there. Our email, our, website is bespokegroup dot io. And, if you wanna, if you wanna follow along, you can, you can subscribe to our mailing list there if you want to, or if you just wanna pop in and grab stuff, then that's fine too. we're based here in the United States, but we've got business partners. I mean, I've got some of my business partners are based in Europe, some of us are based over here, and then, And lots of points in between." }, { "speaker": "matt_mcclintock", "time": "01:02:16", "start": 3736.58, "text": "Fantastic. Well, Matt, thanks for joining me today. Thanks for the opportunity, Stefan. Great" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:02:20", "start": 3740.98, "text": "to see you again." } ] }