{
  "episodeId": "SLP706",
  "speakers": {
    "stephan": {
      "name": "Stephan Livera",
      "role": "host",
      "tag": "STEPHAN"
    },
    "oss_challenge_with_satsie": {
      "name": "₿OSS Challenge with Satsie",
      "role": "guest",
      "tag": "₿OSS"
    },
    "sangbida": {
      "name": "Sangbida",
      "role": "guest",
      "tag": "SANGBIDA"
    },
    "guest_3": {
      "name": "Guest 3",
      "role": "guest",
      "tag": "GUEST"
    }
  },
  "segments": [
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "00:00",
      "start": 0.08,
      "text": "This program is all about giving people the opportunity to show what they've got. It is very difficult to put out your signal over the noise, and the boss challenge is one way to do that. It doesn't matter if you're like Sangbida and you are a corporate developer in Australia, or if you're on the other side of the world like MacGyver and you are a manager at a startup. Doesn't matter if you are an Apple developer in Europe, a security researcher in Nigeria, an Uber- Eats driver or an algebra teacher, these are all examples of people that have come through the Boss Challenge and emerged on the other side with fully funded careers."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "00:41",
      "start": 40.83,
      "text": "Hi everyone and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast. Today we're gonna be talking about the Boss program. Now some of you long time listeners might know from last year we did an episode on this, and Satsie is rejoining us to talk about this program, as well as Sangbida and MacGyver. So, first off, welcome back to the show."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:00",
      "start": 59.9,
      "text": "Thanks for having us. Thank you."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "01:03",
      "start": 63.24,
      "text": "Great. And so, yeah, I guess, you know, I have a lot of, I often interview a lot of developers and there are developer listeners on the show, so, maybe give us a bit of an overview just for anyone who maybe didn't hear, you know, the episode last year. Satsie, do you wanna just give us, you know, sort of an update on it? What, what is this program, and then we can kind of get into a little bit about, Sangbida and"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "01:30",
      "start": 89.52,
      "text": "Bitcoin open source software, and the boss challenge is a thirty day series of technical programming exercises that take you through various parts of the Bitcoin protocol, and they do it in a way that's really fun and engaging. Now, if you finish the first month and you had a really good time and you wanna keep going, we have options to extend it for an additional two months, but the magic of it is really in that it allows people to signal their technical ability And readiness to contribute to Bitcoin open source and do it in a way that cuts through a lot of the noise because we know that is so, so difficult. The program is completely free to participate, it's put on by Chaincode Labs, and it's open to everyone around the world."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "02:15",
      "start": 135.07,
      "text": "Fantastic. And so, yeah, let's hear a little bit about, you guys. So, maybe we'll start with you, Sangbida."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "02:21",
      "start": 141.27,
      "text": "Sure."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "02:23",
      "start": 143.05,
      "text": "So- Prior to working in Bitcoin open source, spoiler, I worked, on Block's Bitcoin trading team. so I was still working in Bitcoin, but, and I was broadly familiar With working in Bitcoin, but I really didn't know a lot about like protocol development or Bitcoin fundamentals, and so that was the main motivation behind joining the course. But I really enjoyed it so much that I sort of kept going and persevering through the whole three months, and yeah, I didn't expect to be working in Bitcoin open source. When I started, the goal was just to learn more about Bitcoin open source. But yeah, here I"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "03:08",
      "start": 188.15,
      "text": "am. There you go. And, Magawa, tell us a bit about yourself also."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "03:11",
      "start": 191.19,
      "text": "Yeah, so, been in IT for 25 years as an IT admin, system engineer, also an engineering manager, product development roles. So, It was really, something that I've been looking and use-- I've been using Bitcoin for, you know, several years, and I hadn't actively done any, contributions into Bitcoin, so it was kind of a nice, you know, opportunity for me to really get to the fundamentals and learn, and then, you know, take it from there."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "03:42",
      "start": 221.52,
      "text": "Yeah, interesting. And so, yeah, I mean, people come from different kind of walks of life, whether that's like professionally being a software engineer or other people who just kind of-- I've seen other people in this journey and this indus-industry who came from a totally unrelated field and they wanted to learn, you know, Bitcoin development, and they just sort of- Did it anyway, the hard way. so yeah, I guess maybe let's talk to, let's speak to, let's hear a little bit of your, let's say motivations, right? Because Sangbida, it sounds like you were already even working-- you could, I would say that counts as you were already working in Bitcoin, but actually you wanted to go really, you know, into more like the specifically open source elements of it. So, maybe you guys wanna tell us a little bit about your motivations for actually going through the program and actually wanting to get more deeply into the"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "04:30",
      "start": 270.22,
      "text": "Sure. I think contributing to Bitcoin open source is very ethical. my, like in my head, in my, my vision for Bitcoin is that people use it for payments, like everyday payments, and I think, I think Like people's relationship with money is very local and cultural, and so Bitcoin open source really allows like a good foundation for that to build local solutions on top of that. so I think contributing to Bitcoin open source really helps with that. and also it's like an awesome new technical challenge that I'm personally excited for."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "05:14",
      "start": 313.71,
      "text": "Cool, and what gave that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "05:16",
      "start": 315.57,
      "text": "Yeah, so I've worked in, you know, corporate America for a few different startups, and I kind of got to the point where in my last chapter, it just the work wasn't as meaningful as I wanted it to be. like Sangbida said, I was looking for an opportunity to give back. I've been looking for a few- A few years and, I saw the social media post last year, on the Boss program and it just-- it kind of spoke to me. It seemed almost too good to be true. It's like a free opportunity to get a boot camp and really get started, and so I just signed up, and the rest is history."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "05:50",
      "start": 349.91,
      "text": "Yeah, I, I think probably the number one reason why people come to Bitcoin Open Source is the ability to do work that's truly impactful, work that is used by countless people across the globe for goodness, who knows how long your code is gonna be running because it's open source. And I think that so many of us are just so mission driven in Bitcoin, we all believe in In financial freedom, we all believe in financial sovereignty, and that creates a really unique landscape. You get to work on, like Sangbida said, some of the best, most challenging problems with, honestly, some of the best people you will work with in your career."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "06:31",
      "start": 390.63,
      "text": "Talk, talk to us a little bit about the experience of, going through the program. what, what was your experience there, doing that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "06:38",
      "start": 398.16,
      "text": "Yeah, personally, I find going through online courses like I struggle with motivation, but, the Chain Code Boss program is sort of gamified and a lot of effort has been put in. By the folks at Chaincode to run this program so seamlessly. what I mean by it being gamified is that you sort of have to unlock the challenges, so you, you're incentivized to finish the challenges as quickly as possible to unlock the next one. And so I think that kept me really motivated. Another thing that was really helpful was the aspect of peer learning. Everyone I find, like in, in the discords, was really really keen to help, which made me keen to help other folks as well, and people produced these amazing docs that I learned from about their experiences. So everyone, like the community was really great through the program."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "07:39",
      "start": 459.38,
      "text": "Yeah,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "07:40",
      "start": 460.0,
      "text": "yeah, I, I would second that, I really enjoyed the, kind of the structure of the curriculum as well. I think it helps you build the foundation early, for me coming in with little, Bitcoin development experience. it was like drinking from a fire hose, but, you know, I really enjoyed it. I think the structured, gamified learning, really helped me. I'm competitive and motivated like that, so I enjoyed the puzzle, the challenge. And then towards the end, you get to be Kind of in a, you get to work on what you want to work on, and you get, exposed to, different projects and project leads, and kind of get to hear the stories of other open source developers, so you actually get in contact with people who are doing the work. now, and it's just a really nice kind of wrap up to the entire program."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "08:27",
      "start": 506.98,
      "text": "Yeah, I will say that the challenges have been refreshed this year, so if anyone joined us in a previous year and wants to do it again, you're more than welcome to come. And we almost joke that this is Bitcoin's Got Talent, which is kind of funny, but it really is. It's about showing up, demonstrating your ability to do the work, to contribute, and really taking it as far as you can go. And if you're serious About it, you will be taken seriously, and that's kind of the beauty of open source."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "08:56",
      "start": 536.26,
      "text": "And I, I, I mean, for, for some, maybe for many, the goal is to eventually end up working professionally in the space, and maybe you can outline a little bit on You know, what does that look like? Is that being, sponsored or is that being going and directly working as a developer in one of these projects? Talk, talk to us a little bit, a bit about that."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "09:20",
      "start": 559.57,
      "text": "Yes, so, for, for most, it's gonna be to get funding. Now, in twenty twenty-four, eight people left the program fully funded, new careers in Bitcoin open source. last year that was about ten, and that actually doesn't include the people that go on to start companies or get jobs in the Bitcoin industry. We, we, we only put the people who work in Bitcoin open source on the website, but that's generally what it looks like, and it's- It's, it's a very small percentage, it really is the top performers that make it through the program, but the fact that it can crank out almost twenty in the past two years is, is pretty incredible to me."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "10:00",
      "start": 600.5,
      "text": "So actually, do you want to just explain a bit about that? Because it's, you know, not to diminish, you know, the program at all, but doesn't it sound like there's, there's not a lot of, you know, developers there coming through? is it just a fa- is it just a fact- is it just a function of, you know, the technical difficulty of it or just kind of getting people, you know, at the, who are at the right level, like the skill level?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "10:26",
      "start": 625.54,
      "text": "Yeah, yeah, you really need that unique combination of exactly That's obvious, you need to be up to par, you really need to like know what you're doing, but another aspect that isn't often talked about is your readiness. You need to be at a point in your life where you're ready to put in the work for one, two, three months and then make that career change. And so just because you come into the program and you don't leave with funding, doesn't mean you're not gonna get funded later in the year, doesn't mean you don't-- if you do it again, you're not gonna get funded, it just means This wasn't the right timing, and that's gonna be different for everybody. It's gonna be different, some people who come into the program, they have full-time jobs, they're not gonna have as much time as somebody who doesn't have a full-time job or somebody, you know, maybe we have students in the program, it depends on also your family obligations, so we try to keep it flexible, but this is really meant to capture those people at that really unique intersection of having the technical ability and being at a point in their lives where they are ready."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "11:30",
      "start": 690.0,
      "text": "So let's, I, I, so let's hear that from, from MacGyver and Sangbida. What was your perspective there going into it that you had, let's say, that one to three months of time that you could really Devote to this."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "11:45",
      "start": 704.99,
      "text": "Yeah, I'll go first. I, like I said, I was, at the beginning, I, I was looking to get into the space, so, I kinda went into it with, \"You're gonna have to kick me out, 'cause I'm gonna give you everything I have. I'm super committed"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "11:58",
      "start": 718.48,
      "text": "going in.\" Yes."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "12:00",
      "start": 719.54,
      "text": "So, yeah, I, I told my family, I have, you know- teenage kids, I was like, \"Hey, I'm gonna be heads down, \" 'cause I have full time job, you know, supporting them as well. So, I, I was like, \"I'm gonna be heads down as much as I can to, you know, make sure I succeed at this.\" there were, there were weeks I put in, you know, twenty, twenty five hours, but there were other weeks that it wasn't as bad. So it was, other people I know probably went through the program and put in less than ten. So it really just depends"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "12:30",
      "start": 749.96,
      "text": "Culum. So if you, if you show up and you do the work, I think you can make it to the end. Sangbida?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "12:36",
      "start": 756.06,
      "text": "I don't have any kids, but I also didn't have a full time job going in, so a lot of my free time was spent doing this, but I was very happy to spend, spend the time doing it because I learned so much. From the program. yeah."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "12:53",
      "start": 772.96,
      "text": "Great. And, how did you-- I guess contrasting this program that has, you know, some, has some structure to it versus, let's say, self-directed learning, right? Like in your mind, you have to contrast that too, because you could, like, theoretically, you could have said, \"Hey, I'm just gonna...\" You know, go through and, g- just go make PRs on Bitcoin open source projects and just try to sort of do it the hard way. What was, what was the difference in your mind of going for this structured program as opposed to just sort of jumping straight into making PRs on a existing open source Bitcoin project and hoping to get sponsored that way?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "13:36",
      "start": 815.54,
      "text": "I mean, I think, the amount of time I think that you save by having a structured curriculum is, you know, orders of magnitude better, in my opinion. I think you learned how to make, contributions, that-- there's, it's kind of like the full, You know, gamut, so I, I think it's, it's a great idea. If you're interested at all, I would definitely highly recommend it. Worst thing you can do is learn a lot."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "14:02",
      "start": 841.58,
      "text": "I think it's difficult to know just where to start, like what are, like not all projects are ready to accept. New, like newer folks, I think there's repositories that are good for first time developers, and you don't really know of this until Someone tells you about it, or, or you, you knock on a lot of doors and then you find the right one. But going through the program definitely like funnels all of that information for you, so you kind of, before you go in and do open source development, you have a really good foundation of like what you need to know, not only about Bitcoin fundamentals, but also, how you might structure your PR or how a commit It looks like or what repository you might decide to contribute in. So those are a bit like if you know you know, and you definitely find those things out in the program."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "15:08",
      "start": 907.59,
      "text": "Yeah, and Satsie, I'm curious to hear your perspective. Of course, I know you have worked in the industry, you're previously at, Casa, I believe, and you've been, you know, you've been around the industry, you've been working in this industry for a while. How, what are your thoughts on that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "15:21",
      "start": 920.81,
      "text": "Yeah, oh, yeah, I have so many thoughts Open source is just a completely different paradigm to working in industry. It's, you have to be a self-starter, and you have to be really confident in your ability to pursue something, and you have to be okay with, like, not really having the same kind of support system that you have from maybe coworkers working on the same problem and a product manager telling you, \"You gotta ship this by a deadline,\" because that, it doesn't, it doesn't happen like that in open source. And one eye opener experience for me was the first time I submitted like a real PR request to, a real pull request to Bitcoin Core with like actual big chunks of code, and it was torn apart, it was shredded to pieces, and I felt so discouraged. But knowing what I know now about Bitcoin open source, that means someone cared, that means somebody took the time to review it. It's actually worse for it to not get any eyes on it at all. And so- So over the years being in open source, I, I've learned to kind of like trust my own internal compass and kind of move without the same level of guidance that I had been working under in industry."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "16:38",
      "start": 998.3,
      "text": "Yeah, and so maybe just to, explain what were some of the outcomes of, this, boss program for you guys. Maybe you wanna explain a bit about that and what you're working on now."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "16:53",
      "start": 1013.12,
      "text": "Oh, I can go first. yeah, right now I am working at, at Blockstream on Core Lightning. So I kind of fell into it by, by chance, it was like opportunity, and also I was working on on, on through the open source program. So, I was looking for jobs at the time and, Jonas from Chaincode was able to connect me to Rusty, who, who leads Core Lightning. And it's, it sort of just happened from there. I didn't expect it to happen, but I'm very glad to be here."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "17:33",
      "start": 1053.18,
      "text": "at the end of the program, one of the kind of the self-directed projects that I picked was to build a silent payments indexer, so, that kind of naturally, led itself to me meeting, Jonas and getting a recommendation to talk to the protocol developer. so I met with them, kind of surveyed, the ecosystem of what's been developed against silent payments for the last three, four years, and really saw an opportunity to kind of marry my skills of, you know, kind of product management, leadership, trying to promote adoption of something that's technically like moving forward, but not really a lot of coordinated effort between different projects. So, it was one of those things where I was able to kind of like come in, you know, submit a plan to a couple organizations to Seek funding and then, you know, execute that plan. So that's, that's kind of what I'm at now, and I'm about six months into that."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "18:25",
      "start": 1104.91,
      "text": "Excellent. And so what was it like, you know, applying for grants?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "18:31",
      "start": 1110.82,
      "text": "I haven't applied for any grants 'cause I applied for the job. So maybe this is a better question for you."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "18:38",
      "start": 1118.49,
      "text": "Okay. Yeah, maybe a better for you, Mcgiver, yeah."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "18:41",
      "start": 1120.83,
      "text": "Okay, no problem. yeah, so, I kinda like took it as a, almost like- creating like a product roadmap and then pitching, my idea to like a leadership team to try to get buy-in for something. So that was kind of how I approached it. So my, My, grant is, you know, to be like the shepherd of silent payments and like push it forward, to adoption. So that's kind of what I'm doing. So I'm not managing anyone, I'm not, you know, developing, anything specific. I really try to coordinate, you know, meetups. I'm trying to work on like building tests, things like that for, silent payments, and then contributing wherever there's holes. So that's, that's kind of what I'm doing. But yeah, my, grant proposal process was, you know, develop that plan and then meet with, you know, prospective, Grant organizations, I had two one-on-one meetings, and then one was just, you know, I guess full. It was based off of just the, the document itself that I put together. So that's, that's kind of how everything came together for me."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "19:49",
      "start": 1188.52,
      "text": "This episode is brought to you by CoinKite, the makers of my favorite Bitcoin hardware wallet, the Coldcard Q. Now, some people think self-custody is too hard, but it's really about taking responsibility for your Bitcoin wealth and understanding that self-custody gives you a true feeling of liberty. The Cold It's got two secure elements and a true air gap, allowing you to go fully air gapped using QR codes from seed generation to transaction signing. You can power the device using three triple A batteries, so you don't even have to plug it into the wall for power. You can easily use it with Sparrow Wallet for PC or Nunchok on mobile, and you can dial it into the right level of security and complexity that you choose. If you want a simple setup, just use twelve words and single signature. If you want passphrases, easy. If you want to add multisig or co-sign Fera to get ten percent off on your cold card or other devices and level up your self-custody today. Yeah, interesting. It does, give that, I think like Satsie mentioned, this kind of self-starter idea that you really have to-- In this case, if you're really out there trying to find a grant to get work, to work on a particular project, you have to sort of take that on for yourself as opposed to if you're working in a company and you're just told, \"Hey, this is the, this is the new priority"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "21:05",
      "start": 1265.35,
      "text": "you know, since working, in silent payments, I've met several developers who were doing this as a hobby side project, I mean, they had full-time jobs as developers, and, you know, they developed good solutions, and I, you know, recommended to them, hey, I think you guys should try to pursue this full time. So I've kind of been e-evangelical about the process and trying to get people to go out and apply for grants to get funding, 'cause I think they're doing great work, they just don't know how to kind of cross grant applications and tried to kind of give them some, ideas and things like that."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "21:39",
      "start": 1298.99,
      "text": "Yeah, and while we're on that, actually, for some, there can be a bit of uncertainty around living off of grants, right? Is that, how do people manage that? Is that like, you know, they've already got to make sure they've got enough savings so that they feel comfortable trying to go down this pathway with grants? Because the thing is, some of these grants may not necessarily be for a long time, and so- W-how do people manage that? How do people deal with that?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "22:04",
      "start": 1323.87,
      "text": "Yeah, I can take that. I mean, me personally, I, I kind of made the decision that, you know, I was pretty confident, had high conviction that if I, demonstrated the work Prove a value and what I can bring, that, you know, more grants would find their way or I could kind of make enough connections and relationships and do a good job that I could, you know, find my place, I guess, if the grants ran out. So that's, that was kind of my approach. it seems almost like that's how people start, just from my experience in the, you know, seven, eight months that I've been kind of really in touch with what's going on. I, it does seem as though once you're kind of like connected and know a In the industry, it's probably easier to fall in different places, so I kind of yo loaded on that idea, I guess."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "22:52",
      "start": 1372.49,
      "text": "Yeah. Yeah, but I think you're right, like once you sort of know a few people in the industry, you tend to just meet a lot of other people in the industry. I mean, there's really high demand,"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "23:01",
      "start": 1380.8,
      "text": "so I think, you know Qualified people that show up and do the work is in high demand, right? Everywhere. In business and in open source. Yeah."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "23:11",
      "start": 1390.67,
      "text": "so let's go back to you, Sangbida. Tell us a little bit about, nowadays you're working, you're contributing on Core Lightning. How does that compare to before?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "23:22",
      "start": 1401.74,
      "text": "I think it's, it's very different. Firstly, the community engagement that you get working in open source is completely different. You get so much feed, there's so many passionate people in the space that are using your software and are so passionate to just give feedback. It is awesome. There are so many other open source developers also working in the space. so that That has just been great to work with all these awesome people. There's also just so much to work on because there's, it's, you can really pick what you want to work on and just go nuts. so that has been just really awesome to just have so much agency, and freedom to be able to work on what you want to work."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "24:13",
      "start": 1452.95,
      "text": "Yeah, interesting you mentioned around, like feedback from people, like from users of the software. Do you, do you feel like it's more, put it this way, is it more direct feedback that you're getting because it's like from the real user of the pro- of, you know, let's say Core Lightning compared to a block user or a Cash App user where maybe it's all getting- Funnelled through like customer support and things?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "24:33",
      "start": 1472.95,
      "text": "Yeah, I guess so. yeah, so at Cash App, you know, there's, there's obviously a funnel, we're also kind of- Like in the back end, so we don't get to deal with the customers directly. And core lightning, you are also the user, like I run my own node now, but there's also, all, all the other developers also run their nodes, and then there's The broader community, like on Discord and Telegram, who are also, you know, updating their nodes and running the new software and giving feedback and creating issues. And yeah, it's just awesome, awesome to be able to interact with these folks directly."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "25:13",
      "start": 1513.38,
      "text": "Gotcha. and so, maybe back to you, Satsie, if-- when you're evaluating if someone, you know, can do this task, what do you-- what, what are the skills you're looking for? What are the-- Is it a mindset, ability? Yeah, what, what are you looking for there?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "25:30",
      "start": 1529.61,
      "text": "Yeah, I mean, attitude really, it, is, it, it's everything. The easy stuff is obviously is your technical ability, at a point where you're ready to contribute. I know like some of these repositories are in Rust, which can kind of have a little bit of a learning curve. Another thing is, I, I mentioned your ability to work with minimal guidance because the other contributors on the project don't wanna be micromanaging you and telling you what to do So you really have to be able to identify issues and bugs and talk to other users and be really proactive. And then the last thing I'll mention is especially in, the days where LLMs are now quite prevalent, something that we're seeing is like Really honest contributors kind of leaning a little bit too heavily on them and opening PRs with code generated by LLMs and descriptions generated by LLMs and their responses will be generated by LLMs. And while the sentiment, is there, it often creates a lot more work on the contributors to kind of coach you through things, and they end up spending more time reviewing your code than what you're- Code is actually adding value too. So I would say those are probably like the top three things that, funders and other contributors look out for when they try to suss out if you are ready to make the leap into Bitcoin open source."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "27:02",
      "start": 1622.3,
      "text": "Yeah, this whole AI, generated contributions thing seems to be, seems to be a new thing now that, you know, even like, I think there was like a recent bit where they were talking about like You know, how, you know, AI generated content, and obviously this can be kind of, like, I mean, yeah, on one hand, yeah, AI should be useful to people to help them research and learn things, but on the other hand, if it gets- Let's say misused or overused, then it can like be like a dose on the time of people who are already there. So I think there's kind of people are trying to wrestle with like, what is the right way to, to use AI? But still not like totally, you know, disavow all uses of it."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "27:43",
      "start": 1662.98,
      "text": "Yeah, yeah, and it's so, it's so tricky to comment on it too, because I use AI for stuff. So like, I'm not telling people not to do it, it's just like you said, there is a point where it can be a little bit too much and, and cause more problems than it helps."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "27:56",
      "start": 1675.67,
      "text": "Something that I learned at the end of the program when meeting some of the project developers is, I think we spoke about this a little bit at the beginning, but the- The responsibility of the person submitting the solution, you know, the standard that you need to think about is like the person reviewing this has to take their time, and, you know, put forth their energy to like parse through all of this stuff that you've created. So if you're using an LLM to generate a ton of mess and then you just like throw that over the wall, now you're putting all this, requirement on the person reviewing that, and even if they see that it's kind of junky or it didn't really like, it's, it's It's just too verbose and it does all these crazy things. They have to like think through that to even give you like a, a real response. So I just would implore people to like really think of it from the reviewer's perspective and like what kind of, you know? position you're putting them in. That's really what you need to think about when contributing to open source is the task that you're putting on the reviewer and try to make it as clean and concise, easy to understand as possible."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "28:59",
      "start": 1738.6,
      "text": "So, for you guys just zooming out a little bit on contributing to Bitcoin open source full time, what does it mean to you? What's the main, you know, appeal of that, in, in as a, a career path?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "29:14",
      "start": 1753.65,
      "text": "I'm really excited about the potential, of what my changes can do. I don't know if that's kind of selfish to say, but I think it's just an ambitious field to work in, so I'm just enjoying the technical challenges, I'm learning so much, and I'm, I'm keen to see what, what's next for me and keen to do some big things."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "29:41",
      "start": 1781.05,
      "text": "I think, you know, I want to build something that has, you know, a long, long time horizon to it, like most people in Bitcoin, you kind of think longer term. And to me, being able to contribute something that has the staying power of a large decentralized network, it just- It, it feels different than building a product that, you know, has a specific use case and customer and timelines and things like that. So, it, it-- the, the freedom to kind of explore and, you know, find your passion is just, it's kind of unmatched in my opinion. So, I, I really love it."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "30:20",
      "start": 1819.61,
      "text": "let me put the question this way, just because I can imagine maybe there are parallels. Do you think people working in Bitcoin open source end up having to take a pay cut versus if they're working in the private sector, like, to get like equity at a, at a Fang or a, you know, a Magnificent, at a Mag seven company, this kind of thing? But is it, is it sort of that trade off of like, you, you are working on something that you're more passionate about? Is that, is that how you're thinking about it, or how do you"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "30:44",
      "start": 1844.36,
      "text": "see Say it probably is there's some sacrifices that go in, financially for people to work in open source, development, Bitcoin specifically. So I do think you're doing it more as a, a passion. as opposed to, you know, huge financial reward. That's, that's my take."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "31:07",
      "start": 1866.93,
      "text": "I would agree with that. I think what I've, what I've really gained is like my mental health is a lot better, since working in, in open source, just because I have so much autonomy over what I'm doing, and that's very empowering. And so while there are, there are pros, but there, while there are cons, I find that the pros significantly outweigh them, and like I'm much happier now. That may not be the case for everybody, but that, that is definitely the case for me. Sure."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "31:40",
      "start": 1900.33,
      "text": "Yeah. and I guess just as you were going through the, the program, Any like, I guess, particular moments you were proud of or any particular challenges that you had to overcome? Did you have any stories to share for listeners that might be helpful for people?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "31:57",
      "start": 1917.28,
      "text": "I was very nervous going into it. I came into it with a lot of imposter syndrome. I think that it started off with, the program started off with like four or five thousand people, and I was like, \"Oh my god, there are so many people.\" And the, the chances are most of these people just know so much more than I do. At least that's what it seems like in Discord, anyway, you know, there are all these people with their own projects going on already. just, everyone just Or at least to me, everyone just seemed really competent, and I, I didn't know that I was going to be able to make it at all, but I kind of just kept going, sort of like kept putting one foot in front of the other and making my way through the challenges, and the last challenge was like particularly difficult. I also don't know if you, if they tell you at the start how many challenges there are, so it was sort of like, I, I think by the end they, they do tell you But that one was particularly challenging, and I knew that one was the last one, and I was, I finished that, and I was really, really happy, and I was like, okay, I've kind of made it this far, maybe I can also do the rest, and then That's, so here we are now after that."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "33:14",
      "start": 1994.22,
      "text": "There you go. Maguire, any stories you wanna share from your experience, going through the program?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "33:20",
      "start": 2000.19,
      "text": "Yeah, I mean, I would say week by week, it was kind of- I had that same imposter syndrome, like I can't possibly be, you know, good enough to make it to the end of this program, but, you know, just like, like she said, I put my head down, did the work. kept learning, learning, learning, learning, reading, trying, reading, trying, learning, learning, learning, and, made it to that point. there was a kind of a challenge in the middle that broke up the Bitcoin portion and the, Lightning portion. with like a block builder, and I really enjoyed that because it was, it was open ended. You didn't have like a grading or a pass fail, it was like you had to do your best work of building, like a miner revenue optimization block template, and so you kind of got to like do some free thinking and, you know, try to optimize. so that was a fun problem for me to solve, and, you know, I liked it because I, it was kind of like just do your best and submit that. I felt like I'd, you know The, possibilities and I was pretty close to optimal, so I was confident, but, there was a lot of people that I could tell that were more structured, that really struggled with the, the nature of that. So I, I kind of like had a, a small win in, in the grand scheme of things against all these other incredibly intelligent people, so. Great."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "34:40",
      "start": 2079.99,
      "text": "and I guess just, interacting with Bitcoin open source developer communities, how has that, how's your thinking there shifted or has your relationship shifted with the way you, let's say, talked with Bitcoin open source developers or contributors?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "34:56",
      "start": 2096.3,
      "text": "A lot less intimidated now, I think. Just, well, a little less intimidated. They're still A lot of really smart people, well, there are a lot, a lot of really smart people in the space, but they don't bite. They're really nice and really enthusiastic, and most of them really want you to succeed if you're dedicated to contributing in Bitcoin open source. And a lot of them take their time to really thoroughly review your PRs, which I think is incredibly generous. and so my experience has been very positive, in, in Bitcoin open source."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "35:35",
      "start": 2134.83,
      "text": "Yeah. I, I personally, haven't met anyone that, you know, was difficult to work with, everyone is super welcoming. Very talented. I, I learn something all the time just by, you know, keeping my eyes open and listening, and, I love the feedback, that you get. And I think the open source, like, open Like code, mindset just is different. I've both of the companies I worked at before, it was, you know, protecting the code and that keeping it c-private and protected was incredibly important to them. The leadership team and it, it's just, it's really nice to work in the open, I can pick up a piece of code or work on a project, and submit a, a PR to something that, like, I don't even know the people that maintain it, but it would be beneficial to, you know, silent payments, for example, to have this move forward, so I can just pick that up and contribute. You know, get feedback for people. So it's, it's really kind of just very open and, collaborative. It's just, yeah, it's nice."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "36:40",
      "start": 2200.02,
      "text": "Yeah. I think it's really cool, the more time you spend in open source and the more people you talk to, the more that you realize everyone is just kind of like learning as they go and figuring it out, and we're all just trying to move something forward. And going to the whole open source part too, like people are generally really encouraging. And before, like, when I first got into it, I got kind of self-conscious if I were to like fork something and be like, \"Oh, well, like, I, I took something of yours and I made it different.\" Like, I don't know how that makes me feel, but people actually really love that, and I think that's a really nice thing. And, and I, and that attitude and that spirit, like, can leak into other parts of your life, and it's just like all around a good thing."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "37:23",
      "start": 2242.61,
      "text": "I see, yeah. I guess I can see it as if someone takes, you know, if someone is taking your code and forking it"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "37:32",
      "start": 2252.29,
      "text": "To, to what we were saying earlier, that it's like if someone even spends the time to give you that review time, that itself is an indicator that, you know, they care enough to do that, which is more than you can say for a lot of other things."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "37:44",
      "start": 2263.86,
      "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really nice. And something else too, like there are so many barriers to contributing to open source that are kind of more on like the soft skill, like mental side, like, oh, am I ready? Like, I don't know where to start. But one thing that From checking out the Bitcoin core repo and going through it line by line. Now there are many other elements, but you can't say that the code's not open, and I just think that's great."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "38:13",
      "start": 2292.94,
      "text": "Alright, so let's, wrap up then. So any closing thoughts on the program? And I just for listeners, if they're interested to go through it, do you have any advice for them?"
    },
    {
      "speaker": "sangbida",
      "time": "38:23",
      "start": 2302.73,
      "text": "Yeah, be, be brave, just apply and see where things take you. That's definitely how I started. I saw a tweet By Nifty, I was doing her Phase 58 course, and I thought, she said to apply to this thing, and here we are. So Just come prepared to try your best and maybe it will be good enough."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "guest_3",
      "time": "38:49",
      "start": 2328.51,
      "text": "Yeah, I would second that. I, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't if you have, you know, kind of the aptitude and the passion to try to learn, Bitcoin and, you know, you wanna contribute, I, I think you should definitely give it a try. Not much to lose."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "39:09",
      "start": 2348.92,
      "text": "This program is all about giving people the opportunity to show what they've got. It is very difficult to put out your signal over the noise, and the boss challenge is one way to do that. It doesn't matter if you're like Sangbida and you are a corporate developer in Australia, or if you're on the other side of the world like MacGyver. And you are a manager at a startup. Doesn't matter if you are an Apple developer in Europe, a security researcher in Nigeria, an Uber Eats driver, or an algebra teacher, these are all examples of people that have come through the Boss Challenge and emerged on the other side with fully funded careers. I encourage anyone who has just been like noodling on the idea of like, \"Wow, I really wanna work in Bitcoin, I really wanna work in Bitcoin open source, I know how to code, I just don't know what the steps are.\" There to apply. Applications close December 31st and the program kicks off the week of January 12th. The website is bosschallenge dot x y z."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "oss_challenge_with_satsie",
      "time": "40:11",
      "start": 2410.86,
      "text": "Fantastic. Well, we'll leave it there. Links will be in the show notes, so listeners make sure you share this episode so other people can, learn a bit about the Boss program, the Boss Challenge, and, yeah, if you're interested, definitely sign up. Thank you, for everyone for joining me."
    },
    {
      "speaker": "stephan",
      "time": "40:25",
      "start": 2424.73,
      "text": "Thanks, Stefan. Thank you."
    }
  ]
}