{ "episodeId": "SLP723", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "keith_gardner": { "name": "Keith Gardner", "role": "guest", "tag": "KEITH" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.12, "text": "I generally think the safer we can make Bitcoin, Lightning, ARC, the more anxiety we can remove is a, is a good thing for the industry." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.32, "text": "Hi everyone and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast. Today we're gonna be talking about Bitcoin, payments and how to verify the addresses and how do we make sure we're secure in this age of AI and deepfakes and malware and all this. So rejoining me on the show today is Keith from the team at Branta. Keith, welcome back to the show." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:27", "start": 26.87, "text": "Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks, Stefan." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "00:30", "start": 29.53, "text": "So, Keith, give us the latest. I know you guys had some recent partnerships or deals signed. I think you did one with Amboss as well." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:35", "start": 35.39, "text": "Yeah, yeah. There's been a, a lot going on. I think we last spoke in twenty twenty-four. Yeah, just for the audience, I'm Keith. I founded Bront in twenty twenty-three. The goal is to have people never lose their Bitcoin when they think they're sending it to a certain counterparty. but yeah, since twenty twenty-four, there Taproot Amboss was announced yesterday, remittance company in Africa. Yeah, there's been a lot happening since then." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "01:06", "start": 65.73, "text": "Yeah, now I guess let's take it back to the start. So for most people, you know, just basics, when you go to send Bitcoin, the experience typically is you, you might be copy-pasting an address and putting that into your- Wallet, if it's an online wallet interface like whatever Electrum and Sparrow and so on, or Blockchain or whatever, or you may be copy pasting it on your phone, or you may be used to the kind of scanning experience. But the question that we're exploring h-here is more like What are the ways that can fall down, or where are the ways you can be tricked? Because there are various ways you can be tricked there. Do you wanna just take it from there?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:42", "start": 102.23, "text": "Yeah, let's go into it. So actually, I think it was last week, Stefan, there was quite the, the nice thread on Twitter with Mr. Hoddle." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "01:50", "start": 110.06, "text": "yeah, I was going back and forth with him on that, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:52", "start": 112.24, "text": "Yeah, no, you were going back and forth with him, and so I think there is some misunderstanding to clear up, but backing way up," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:04", "start": 124.16, "text": "Right, and this is beautiful because this is a bearer instrument like cash. Now with credit cards, you know, maybe this isn't popular with your audience, but credit cards are kind of the UX we're aiming for, right? Like how many credit cards does the average American have versus how many, Sparrow installations does the average American have, right? So we have work to do with Bitcoin payments. And what we really want to be able to do is verify the counterparty address. In a zero knowledge way, before I send my Bitcoin. Now what that means for me at home, whether I'm paying a bill, that's large or small, if I so choose, I can check that the, recipient is actually correct and confirmed, and I'm not getting fished, man in the middle, address swap, any of this nasty stuff that is a tail risk but does happen too much." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "02:57", "start": 177.24, "text": "Yeah, I see. And so the issue is, now, yes, there's certain best, best practices, that of course, check the address on the-- So a typical piece of advice people give is, when you're about to send money, check the address that's listed on your hardware wallet that you're about to send to is the address on your screen. But th- it, it gets deeper than that, right? Because yes, yes, that's best practice, that is a good, that, that doesn't change, that's still correct, but there are still other ways that we Without even knowing. And I think what we're talking about, and I look, I sympathy for Mr. Hodel because I think he doesn't quite, he didn't quite understand what was, what was the, that risk, and then after that thread, he sort of got it a bit better. But the point being Not everyone is just sort of only periodically doing a transaction, right? Like if you're just kind of dca-ing and every now and again you're spending a little bit or maybe you're selling a bit of fiat on the exchange, this kind of thing. Well, that's a different case to, imagine if you're a business and you're doing like regular payments and you're just kind of receiving invoices all the time, how do you verify that that Bitcoin address is truly belonging to the actual counterparty who you think and it's not like a hacker who has sent you a malicious invoice or- Or that your browser that you go on hasn't had some kind of malware to ad-- do what's called an address replacement attack. So I think that's, probably the, the key, or at least one of the key risks, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:23", "start": 263.09, "text": "Yeah, that's exactly right. So, yeah, I think Mr. Hoddle was kind of falling into the trap that, you know, the hardware device and that screen is great, but Bronta's upstream of that, and the attack is also upstream of that, so that's why Bronta's, you know, product placement is where the attack will happen. And, you know, the pitfall with just matching the address on the screen to your hardware wallet, if you're even using a hardware wallet, is you're actually matching a bad address to a bad address. So right, like you already" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "04:54", "start": 293.63, "text": "pwned before you even started that process. Exactly, you were pwned before you realized it. Okay, so talk me through how does Bronta work in terms of making, like, stopping that, right? As I understand, you have like a ZK verification, talk us through that process." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:09", "start": 309.26, "text": "Yeah, so that's a good point, we should probably touch on that a bit more too. So when Bronta initially launched, like, our, you know, vision was always to be completely private. We don't want to be a middleman, we don Data period. And we had a good design from the beginning, but we made it like fully zero knowledge now, so we can, Bronza can verify the address that you send to without ever seeing that plain text address. yeah, and what was your, what was your question before that? So" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "05:39", "start": 339.29, "text": "around the ZK verifying aspect, like how is Branta working to stop the, the, these attacks, like address replacement or poisoning?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:50", "start": 349.54, "text": "Right, so essentially what Bronta does is open up another channel from you to the counterparty, and we call the product guardrail because it's just kind of a nice term, you don't want your car to drive off the road or your Bitcoin to go to an attacker, right? And so today, like, if I go to send Bitcoin to, whether it's a multi-institution custody setup, whether it's literally a Zapra invoice, well, Zapra, has adopted Bronta, so, that's, that's not a problem there anymore. But that's one channel, right? The single channel is the issue, and really what we're talking about, if we go even more upstream, is a computer science concept called the man in the middle, and it's a, it's a very bad attack because in, in computer systems, there's many, many layers, like you could probably list a hundred discrete layers that are used in any given channel. And let's just pause on the channel word again. So if this is me paying you back for lunch, Stefan, maybe signal suffices. Signal's a channel. But what happens there? There's WiFi, there's my iPhone operating system, there's the screen, there's the UI rendering components, there's the ISPs, there's the telecom, there's so much infrastructure in between your screen and what I paste into my screen to get to you. And that's all susceptible to a man in the middle over one channel, which isn't great. Now, previous solutions have been around maybe you send a test transaction on-chain. Okay, cool, maybe fees are low. It's still slow though. Like if we claim to have the best money ever, why are we sending? You know, on-chain transactions. Like, are we really gonna stay with on-- sorry, with test transactions for the next ten years with this pristine collateral, this perfect money? It's not a knock on test transactions, they're fine. You do end up with address reuse. The other way, you know, maybe over Lightning or if you've ever Venmoed somebody for the first time is to send a one dollar payment, it's the same concept. But anyways, back to the man in the middle, and how Bronta solves this. This will be a bit abstract, but the base concept is, you know, if your counterparty has the good address that you want to receive at, they can encrypt and then duplicate that address into Bronta. So now this, and they keep the key, we don't see the key, so the counterparty has duplicated the good information. That's the first step. So duplicate the good information, and then for the end user, now there's now another channel, like across space. So there's two elements, the time and the space. So temporarily you duplicate the good address, and then across different spatial, like, channels, the user can verify. this is being embedded in wallets, you can do over web browser or mobile. And I'll, I'll pause there." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "08:32", "start": 511.88, "text": "Yeah, okay, gotcha. So let's just, as an example, just make an example, you know, big exchange. You know, whatever, Kraken or Coinbase or whatever, just imagine a big exchange is like, \"Hey Stephan, here is your deposit address, there it is.\" And then I, the customer, I'm like, \"Okay, I wanna, you know, let's say I wanna put some Bitcoin on the exchange 'cause I need to sell to pay my bills, whatever.\" At that point, what you're saying is, in this example, let's say this exchange has signed up with Branta, they have in the background also duplicated that address, and they have, you know, they're doing, that way we're doing a bit of a proof there, such that when I go to pay, now how, so where is the- Proof taking place, where's the verification taking place? Is, I guess, is the question, right? Because how do I, the customer of that exchange, know that, yes, that is truly Kraken's address or Coinbase's address or whatever, whatever exchange?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:25", "start": 564.66, "text": "Yeah, so, yeah, so first part of the question, you're using an ex- an exchange and you wanna send Bitcoin to the exchange. The exchange shows you an address. Now, the kind of canonical way to implement Bronter right now is much like, you know, in early credit card payments, there was TLS, there was SSL, there was HTTPS. and now this is just a standard and it's kind of in the background. so much like that, when you see that address, a verify with Bronter link will Be there. Now what that does, if you want to click that, you can. that also indicates to you that certain wallets you can also scan with our web app, you can verify across different devices that that address is correct. So that's, that's so talk, talk to me about" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "10:11", "start": 611.14, "text": "that ad- that, that button. Like, let's say I'm using the web interface for Big Exchange, I click that button, what's happening in there when I do that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:19", "start": 619.18, "text": "Yeah, so what's happening there, this'll be a bit technical, but you click the link and the link links to Bronter and in the slug of the URL is a ciphertext blob, just like an encrypted, blob of gibberish, basically. so one key point is we don't want to be scrapeable against the mem Right? Like we don't want Bronta to be a massive KYC lookup, like Chainalysis or any of these other, other tools. It's actually much more ephemeral and it's encrypted, so there's no way to scrape this. And what happens, when you click the link? It's very important that you can do this in the same browser. So I'm on Brave right now, and I can just one-click link. It takes, you know, a hundred milliseconds to load, and I see the address mirrored back to me. And that attests that the exchange has partnered with Bronta, and this, you know, encrypted text has been decrypted with the key. And this is great because it's no friction, there's no login, there's no download. And if I want, as the user, going to send, I can check that same link from any computational device, like any Android, right? Like on a phone" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "11:26", "start": 686.25, "text": "or on another computer or this kind of thing. So help me understand this part. So it's like, think of it like a one- One-click pop-up verify sort of thing to make sure this address is truly exchange address and not the hacker's address kind of thing. So as an example, if I click that and it shows a different address, then alarm bell should be going off and being like, \"Whoa, hold on, hold on, I might be malware, someone might have like done an address replacement or address poisoning attack on me, I should stop now.\"" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:53", "start": 712.68, "text": "Yeah, exactly, exactly. Gotcha." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "11:55", "start": 715.28, "text": "And this would be especially important in the cases of, you know, like large, obviously, large value transactions. So let's say if you're, you know, you're doing big boy transactions, you're transacting, you know, millions of dollars on chain, maybe you're doing like whatever, some big transaction or a loan or, you know, something, and you're transacting the collateral or your whatever, you wanna obviously verify that before you send a large amount. and historically, as you said, a lot of people have done these test transactions But again, bad UX, slow, you know, address reuse, like there's lots of bad reasoning around that. now, I guess the other question people will have is, what about- On the phone. So, you know, we-- like, I guess I was imagining, let's say I'm going to the exchange, I'm looking at the website interface on the web browser on my laptop or my desktop. What about when I'm on a phone interface? Like, let's say I'm using a big exchange phone app, is there something Bronto is doing there, or how does it work when it's a phone UX?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:56", "start": 776.49, "text": "Yeah, yeah, phones are a huge focus point for us as well. So, I mean, essentially the same thing applies, because you still have a screen that's connected to the internet, and you have a, you know, a keyboard, and you can click and point. So the link thing still applies there, that's the first thing. But looking for- What's really cool is if, you know, wallets adopt Bronta so that from your wallet you can do a real-time zero knowledge check, like a private lookup of the QR code. one, this is a really kind of silly example, but one attack that happens is if you've ever been to a gas station and you're filling up your car, whatever you drive, right? There's a QR code on the little pump, but what happened was some scammer came along and just BAM, they slapped up right there on the Bitcoin address. Old-school" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "13:43", "start": 822.88, "text": "address replacement. Yeah, yeah, it's like very old" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:45", "start": 825.46, "text": "school. It's like a, it's like a cartoon, and in that case, maybe you're using your mobile, like you said, and if you scan that, and you know this is like Sunoco or Gulf or whatever gas station, the wallet can do a private lookup in real time and say, \"Hey, yeah, this address checks out to, Gulf.\" yeah. That's, that's really cool, because then there's really no friction and it's fully end to end. And our ultimate goal is for- So I guess the point you're making" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "14:11", "start": 851.4, "text": "is eventually this will be built into the wallets we use. And so as an example, you know, nowadays, Sparrow has like a little mempool dot space thing in there, like it's already just kind of built in, or like Zeus will give you like the mempool dot space estimate. It's just like doing some kind of API call out to mempool dot space to give you that" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "14:34", "start": 874.1, "text": "To verify kind of automatically. Like, I guess in my mind, I'm making a loose parallel, but let's say when I use my, my Android phone and I download an app on Google Play Store or whatever, there are certain checks built in already. Like it's already doing certain checks to make sure that the Android app developer has signed that app with his key so that I'm not getting a malware app kind of thing. And there's kind of automatic checks built in. So I guess what you're, what we're getting at here is this kind of address verification check and the, a- Cryptographic check will get built into our wallets and our exchanges and our services over time." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:10", "start": 909.89, "text": "Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, you know, Bron does like very specific too, and, you know, ultimately if we're aiming for a credit card UX You know, if you think about credit cards, they're everywhere, they're super high volume, they're robust, you can do chargebacks, so you can literally get your credit card stolen. It's like zero responsibility. But until we get Bitcoin wallets and spending like close to that, or ideally 10x the UX, it's kind of one of our slogans. It's like we want a 10x the UX of credit cards and cash. And until we get there and really obfuscate all these gnarly issues that can come up you know, we have work to do, and that's our, that's our mindset. Gotcha." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "15:49", "start": 949.46, "text": "Now, we've spoken mostly about on-chain, let's talk about lightning and ARC and other, you know, other L2s and things like that. How, how does Bronta and the zk verification of addresses work in a lightning or an L2 context?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:03", "start": 963.17, "text": "Yeah, I mean, there's a couple different designs possible just based on like the network topology of lightning, but generally, this same exact principle applies of like, what you see on your screen, does it belong to the Counterparty. Simple as that. So when we talk about wallets integrating," }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "16:19", "start": 979.44, "text": "so in the Amboss L2 example, I presume, you know, it's Lightning. So how are you verifying on the Lightning side of things?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:27", "start": 986.74, "text": "Yeah, so Lightning works the same exact way in the sense of you see an alphanumeric string and you want to be sure that belongs to the counterparty. now one very important thing to note with Bronz is we don't touch your xPub, we don't want private keys, seed phrases, and we don't even touch the transaction once it's in flight. This is purely like a prepayment sort of, layer." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "16:49", "start": 1009.04, "text": "Yeah. So basically it's a similar UX or flow, and instead of doing it for the on-chain address, you're also doing it for the lightning address." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:00", "start": 1019.71, "text": "Yeah," }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "17:00", "start": 1020.19, "text": "exactly. Is that the same applies or lightning invoice to be more, let's say, technically precise?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:05", "start": 1025.13, "text": "Yeah, same applies to ARC as well. So like if you go to Amboss and you want liquidity for your lightning channels, you can buy that with Bitcoin through Amboss's BTC Pay server, and in real time you can just verify like if you're buying a ton of liquidity through Magma, you can verify that you're actually paying Amboss. So it's a very simple check, but it is a very important check." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "17:28", "start": 1048.23, "text": "Okay. and so on the Amboss side, are they Doing like a ZK, like they're, they're doing a, like they are presenting the invoice to the end customer, but also creating a second copy of that invoice and doing a ZK proof and showing that to Bronta. Is that what's happening there or something similar?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:49", "start": 1068.67, "text": "Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. So for the Amboss integration, this is through the BTC Pay server infrastructure, and actually the plugin is open source on Bronta's GitHub, so anybody's welcome to check it out. And what happens is before Bronta ever receives data The data's encrypted in the plugin, with an algorithm, and so we don't ever see the plain text in the first place." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "18:13", "start": 1092.97, "text": "Gotcha. a lot of builders and developers are listening usually, so can you give an idea on the cost that Branta charges?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:21", "start": 1101.18, "text": "Yeah, so I mean, the general cost we haven't published like public, public pricing yet. the general model is monthly, you can pay us like a flat fee and then volume tiers above that, depending on, yeah, depending on your volume." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "18:37", "start": 1117.23, "text": "Gotcha. and just kind of zooming out a little bit, where are we going? Like, obviously AI is like the super hot thing, everyone's talking about AI, everyone's using AI. are there going to be new scamming vectors enabled by AI? How do you, as Branta, help with that?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:57", "start": 1137.41, "text": "Yeah, I think this question generally falls under like consumer anxiety, right? Like what we don't want is for Bitcoin to induce like emotional feelings of anxiety and apprehension and fear, because emotions are very sticky and that's actually what's happening today. So, like if you asked an average person on the street, like what do they think of maybe Coinbase or the crypto casinos? Well, there's a lot of- That Super" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "19:21", "start": 1161.38, "text": "Bowl ad was a clear example, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:24", "start": 1163.61, "text": "It was a clear example, like we're, we're not doing good enough. Like we aren't catering- to people at home that wanna use this that aren't cypherpunks and writing code and doing PGP checksums and all of this. So, you know, I generally think the safer we can make Bitcoin, Lightning, Ark, the less-- the more anxiety we can remove is a, is a good thing for the industry, right? Because yes, we can keep selling to each other in the industry, but what we really want is no coiners, rather pre-coiners, to come in and use this best money. And, you know, my kind of challenge to the industry Is that if we really claim to have the best money ever, well, why hasn't everybody adopted it? It has to be so good that I can pick it up like a Swiss Army knife or, you know, a Ford F-150 or the original Apple iPhone. It has to be product design that is so good, it's just like, duh, of course I want this. Like, I won't make room in my budget, I won't make room in my week to just install the wallet and start spending at these great businesses that are using Bronta. So I really challenge the industry Look back at the product design and figure out how can we meet pre-coiners." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "20:32", "start": 1231.53, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think that it makes a lot of sense. Obviously the people listening are, you know, they're trying to-- they might be builders or developers or, you know, ac- academically interested or just kind of intellectually interested. but of course, rubber meets the road is when you're trying to get pre-coiners and, or even people who have just started with Bitcoin to actually-- so as an example, someone who only uses custodial Bitcoin or ETF Bitcoin to actually Like, yeah, I wanna actually use it myself for real. now, another example I'm curious, is it possible that Branta will be built-- Now, we've been talking mainly from a sort of like a B2B sense or almost like business uses. Are there gonna be consumer uses of Branta on the receiving side? Like, will it ever be the case that I, let's say I'm a everyday Bitcoiner with a Bitcoin wallet, would I ever be using Branta when I am trying to receive from my friends?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:25", "start": 1285.45, "text": "Yeah, you, you will. It probably won't be this, it won't be like Q2 2026, but it's coming. the real challenge there, Stefan, is like, we, we have to be very careful adding friction. So like, our general go-to-market and our roadmap and the way we've approached this problem is how do we reach the masses like instantly and also, you know, make revenue as a company? And the easiest way to do that by reaching the masses is just, is just going to businesses that accept Bitcoin. Now, the business doesn't wanna Consumers shouldn't have to ever get man in the middle, Bronto. It's super simple, it just fits in. Yeah. And there's no way for the consumer-- And I mean, to your point, like," }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "22:02", "start": 1321.88, "text": "it's really like, no-- very few individuals are doing their own wallet, right? Like, really, it's more like, Bronto, the technology needs to be built into, let's say, businesses or the wallets that everyday, you know, bitcoiners are using. And so really, your interactions are more to the businesses, and so in a way, you're selling" }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "22:25", "start": 1344.87, "text": "not even have to care or think about this stuff. It should just be built into the background and, you know, the, like the same way my ex-ex-example earlier about the Google Play Store or the Apple App Store, very few users are thinking, \"Oh, yeah, did, did Google Play, verify the si-the developer signature on this APK or whatever?\" No, like they're just not thinking about that. They're just like, \"I wanna download the app, I wanna use the app.\" It's the same thing, like, \"I wanna send a payment or I wanna receive a" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:51", "start": 1370.84, "text": "Yeah, it has to be dead easy, and that is the specific challenge with B2C or with end users at home. we already have BrontaCore, which is, it's MIT licensed software you can run, it's open source on our GitHub as well, and that, gives you, I think we spoke about this last time, but it gives you real time notifications about what's in your clipboard. So that's kind of like your, like that's internally looking on your own system, There's also a solution that is, it's not, we don't, we haven't announced it yet, but it's a solution for receiving Bitcoin as an individual. So we've really talked about business deposit side, but the other side is like, you know, businesses sending Bitcoin to a user. So yeah." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "23:36", "start": 1415.56, "text": "We, you touched on this before around BTC Pay, but just talk me through how that part works. Like, is it a plug-in for BTC Pay? How does that part work for users?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:44", "start": 1423.69, "text": "Yeah, hundred percent. So we've, been like really blown away by the prevalence of BTC Pay server, and I think the actual team, you know, behind BTC Pay has as well, because it's, it's decentralized, right? It's open source. and so Bronta has first-class support for BTC Pay server with our plug-in. it's already installed, Italy instance with over fifteen hundred businesses running it, Bitcoin Aruba as well, Voltage is running the, the plugin, and users can, yeah, sign up with Bronta, drop in an API key, and it just works. It works across Tether, on-chain Lightning, Ark. Right out of the gate, the other two platforms that anybody can use today are Zapright and TakeMySats. I think a lot of your listeners will know Zapright, so there's a Bronta connection within your Zapright page that you can drop your Bronta API key in, and then all of your addresses will, will be verified. And same with TakeMySats, which is a very, very tech-forward sort of no-ster, no-ster forward, platform." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "24:49", "start": 1488.55, "text": "Excellent. Well, yeah, I mean, it sounds like a no-brainer for most cases, right Right, because it's just, it's, it might be a sort of a tail risk in certain cases, but it's like you can almost fully prevent it, with this kind of address verification technology, and it's almost like a no-brainer that it should just be built into most exchanges, wallets, services. Like it should just be kind of an automatic thing, happens in the background, end users don't have to think about it. But let's say we in the industry, developers, builders, investors, and like, you know, if you're like a serious Bitcoiner, let's So anyway, I think that's probably, that's probably the key point, so, we'll leave it there. Any final closing thoughts? And where can people find you?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:28", "start": 1528.45, "text": "No, it's been great. We'll get back with Mr. Hoddle on Twitter too, but yeah, f-for everybody, our website is bronta.pro, I'm Keith, and our Twitter is bronta ops. So, yeah, look forward to more discourse with the community, more engagement, and, yeah, really just making Bitcoin the absolute best possible UX because we actually have like programmable" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:52", "start": 1551.91, "text": "Absolute best." }, { "speaker": "keith_gardner", "time": "25:53", "start": 1552.95, "text": "Fantastic. Thanks for joining me, Keith." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:55", "start": 1554.86, "text": "Yeah, thanks so much for the phone." } ] }