{ "episodeId": "SLP754", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "seth_for_privacy": { "name": "Seth for Privacy", "role": "guest", "tag": "SETH" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.0, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stefan Laverda podcast. Today rejoining me on the show is Seth for Privacy. Seth is, coming from the team at KWallet, and recently they've got this new app called Radar Dot Chat, or Radar Chat. so, Seth, welcome back to the show, and, let's start with why, why build a Bitcoin messenger now?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "00:19", "start": 19.0, "text": "Yeah, absolutely excited to be back. I know it's, it's been a while. I think our, our last chat was the, the fungibility talk that we did a few years ago. but the why honestly behind Radar, I mean, we've, we've been thinking about this for a while. Initially, just started as an idea of like, \"Hey, we have some features in Signal that we want to improve and work on, let's just make an alternative client.\" But as we started to explore and then deploy Lightning for KWallet, and we did that via Spark using In terms of user experience, that you didn't have to, you didn't have to deal with all of the caveats that came with Lightning in the past, and the user experience was so good, you could start to put it in places where users who aren't necessarily like Bitcoin ideologues, people who aren't gonna be willing to put up with the pain that has come with Lightning over the years, they'll still want to use this. and so that was the, the start of why the, the- Like the real reason is, this idea of all of our private messaging is in one place and all of our payments are in a totally separate place is not a complex thing. Like it's weird that those have stayed so separate for so long. Obviously, we've had like WeChat Pay, we've had Facebook Messenger has payments, Cash App has like messaging stuff, but those all rely on a central custodian, they all rely on banks and are all KYC platforms. They're, they're very privacy invasive and they don't have the private messaging aspect that Signal does. So for us, it was really just bringing together those two things, where the people that you already chat with, you should be able to pay them directly, you shouldn't have to ask them for a cash tag and go pay them in Cash App, you shouldn't have to ask them for a Lightning invoice and go find your Lightning wallet and pay it that way, and then do this copy, paste, and repeat, switch apps thing. It's just about shifting that UX flow, and making it something where Bitcoin can become just a normal part of everyday life rather than something that you like, you go out" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:11", "start": 131.0, "text": "And how does the app work for a normal user? Can you talk us through that?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "02:16", "start": 136.0, "text": "Yeah, so we've, we've very intentionally kept the core of what makes Signal fantastic. So Radar is built on Signal's messaging network and protocol. So all your, your contacts and chats come with you. So for the average user, it, it feels very similar to using Signal in the everyday chat side of things. And then you just notice there's a little Bitcoin button at the bottom, right where you'd put in the text for the message you wanna send. Tap that, enter an amount, hit send, done. That's all you have to do to actually send payments directly within a chat. And that's kind of the beauty of it, it's, it's stupid simple. The, the idea is that this shouldn't be something that requires like a lot of hoops to jump through or requires someone to even understand anything about how Bitcoin works Similarly to how right now, all of this is self-custodial, users' keys, they can back up as a seed phrase, but they also get backed up automatically, encrypted, in a way that only they control to their Signal profile, so they also don't necessarily have to back up their seed phrase. Obviously, it's always best to do that, but for those users who are new and are not Bitcoin native, having a, a backup there natively by default is really important for us." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:19", "start": 199.0, "text": "Is there any clash if you already have Signal? Like, I guess what I'm asking is, do you have to give up your Signal username or is it a separate Signal username or like how portable is it to come over from Signal as it is now to Radar?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "03:34", "start": 214.0, "text": "Yeah, so we're, we're totally Signal compliant, so you can, you can bring your existing Signal account and, log into it in the Radar app. You would want to make a backup first, so like the cloud backups specifically that Signal's been deploying over the past six months or so work really well. They're called like backups beta in the settings. If you do that, you save your recovery key that it gives you. When you actually go to set up Radar, you'll just say that you're migrating from Signal. You'll enter that recovery key, it'll restore the backup, and Signal account, your existing Signal contacts, your Signal username, none of that changes. Radar is really about combining what already works so well with Signal. We're, we're Signal users. I, I would expect probably most of the people listening to this are already Signal users. It's just, it's a very good platform, very good protocol, and it works fantastically well. So we didn't wanna change that or mess with that, and we wanted to more add Bitcoin into where people are already sending messages. So yeah, you can, you can get off the racetrack with your same username, you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:33", "start": 273.0, "text": "And then, do group chats work the same or how does it work there?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "04:37", "start": 277.0, "text": "Yeah, so group chats work the same. you can't make payments right now in a group chat. We do have some plans for that. We, we kept it very simple and focused on the, the one-on-one DMs right now for payments. but our plans for, for group chats long-term are especially for things like splitting bills, after lunch, being able to more easily divvy it up when you buy a birthday present for your parents, split it up between your siblings, that sort of thing Groups specifically don't have payments enabled, but there's a lot of fun stuff that we're gonna work on around that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:07", "start": 307.0, "text": "I see. But just as an example, let's say you port over to Radar, will you still be in the same group chats?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "05:14", "start": 314.0, "text": "Yeah. Okay, so it's not like you have to rejoin the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:16", "start": 316.0, "text": "same groups or reset up groups and things." }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "05:19", "start": 319.0, "text": "Nope. Yeah, even if you don't restore a backup, like for instance, let's say you come from Signal, you go into Radar, you just log in, you say, \"I wanna skip restore The message, you'll see them show up. so it, it doesn't, doesn't change anything about the signal side of radar. It's very intentional that all of your signal account and history and everything can come with you. Group chats still work. None of the messaging side changes at all. That's intentional, but it's the payment side that is, is really the, the shift here. I'm seeing more. To the Spark" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:53", "start": 353.0, "text": "side. Yeah. So let's, let's go to the Spark side of things. Yeah. Spark is a state chain based model. listeners for those interested there, but can you talk us through a little bit on what you're implementing there? As I understand, the user will have his own Leafs of, and that kind of represents his self-custodial, you know, coins inside of the Spark. talk us through a little bit of that." }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "06:17", "start": 377.0, "text": "Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I won't deep dive too deeply into Spark 'cause I know we're, we're a little time restricted here, and you've done it before. but yeah, the TL;DR is that we are using Spark under the hood to allow users to pay each other. Regular payments within Radar are actually Spark to Spark, they're not technically over Lightning, but Spark in Radar is Lightning enabled, so you can pay any external wallet, if I wanna send from my Radar balance to, well, it's Fatoshi or Cake Wallet or Phoenix or Zeus, whichever, I can pay directly. Those Lightning invoices, LNRs, Bolt twelve, whatever. As well as I can actually top up my Radar balance with Lightning, and I think for us, that's the, the huge part, especially getting started, is a lot of the pain that came with MobileCoin signals kind of failed cryptocurrency that they launched, I think six years ago now, was that there was no, no one already had it and the onramps weren't great and it just died, died on the vine because of that. Whereas now, especially the initial people that we're talking to about this, that we're getting this in front of, they're already Bitcoiners, they have Bitcoin, being able to just top up and get started from Lightning in a split second is a game changer there. Yeah, under the hood, you hold the, the, the keys for self custody within Spark. Model, that I know you all have covered in depth when you, when you chatted with Kevin, where you are trusting that the spark operators, at least one of them, is honest. if they're all dishonest and a previous sender is dishonest, they conclude to double spend funds, but there are different, spark operators that are separate, individual separate entities to provide some, some good trust distinctions there. and then there is also the ability to unilaterally exit, not directly within Radar right now, we're going to add that as soon as we can, To do, at the moment in Spark." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:02", "start": 482.0, "text": "And just give people an idea, how seamless are the payments going to be? Is it as simple as, let's say, I have you as a contact in Radar, is it just as simple as, I wanna pay Seth, you know, five hundred, five thousand sats or whatever, and, you know, how fast does it happen? Talk us through that." }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "08:17", "start": 497.0, "text": "Yeah, I mean, that's the really beautiful thing, and this is what Spark and Arc could also enable, for these kind of use cases, is you don't have all of the, the onboarding friction or the first payment friction or the on-chain friction that you're used to when you're using Bitcoin payments. So I can, someone can set up a, a Radar account, and I can pay them that next second with mine by tapping one button, go into the chat, tap the Bitcoin button, enter the amount I wanna hit, and s- and hit send, and that's it. They'll receive it instantly. they don't have to wait for any confirmations, they don't have to deal with inbound liquidity, they don't have to worry about, do I already have the right liquidity to be able to accept payments? None of that happens. They're able to just receive instantly without having to deal So that's like the kind of the funny thing when describing how this works is it, it's so simple and it works so seamlessly that there's not a lot to explain. It's really just enter a chat, hit the Bitcoin button, choose the amount, you can add a note if you want right there, which will show up as kind of a comment under the payment, to give an explanation of what it's for, and you're off to the races. Super straightforward. And the, the other really nice thing I, I like about it and the beauty of Lightning interoperability is if you're Or something to get a balance into Radar to be able to start using this today. You literally just copy your Lightning username within Radar, send to it from whatever Lightning wallet you already have, and in a split second, you're ready to use Radar, ready to pay people within it, with low fees, super fast. It's, it's really beautiful the way that Lightning is kind of tying everything together within the Bitcoin ecosystem and now letting us reach beyond the, like, Bitcoin ecosystem to people who maybe aren't as ideologically driven as us, but want some way to just be able to transfer value and send money To people that they're already chatting with." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "10:04", "start": 604.0, "text": "Does Radar include a Lightning address and can people take offline payments there as well?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "10:10", "start": 610.0, "text": "Yeah, so it does include a-- you'll get like a randomly generated at cake dot ca- or at radar dot cash, username directly within the app, so you can use that to receive payments. You can also edit it and customize it to one that you want as long as it's not taken already. and so you can use that easily for receiving- lightning payments. For offline payments, one of the really nice things with how Spark works is you can actually receive payments offline. You don't have to be online at all to be able to receive those payments. Because we're using Spark to Spark, those don't have any other trust model than the, the regular Spark trust model. You don't have to be online at all, which is another huge benefit here because obviously a messaging app, you do open quite frequently, but you're not in your messaging app all the time. So if you do step away or you're out, out of a group chat Something where you have to come online or claim them somehow or anything like that." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:02", "start": 662.0, "text": "Yeah, I think, it's quite an interesting idea to me, and, it could make sense, I mean, for a lot of people just to be their first Lightning wallet, right? Because it's already a texting app, it could make sense for them to just have that as their spending money, and then later for large amounts, that's where kind of hardware wallets, multi-sig, that kind of stuff. But for spending money, I mean, on a phone is obviously already what most people are doing Listeners, for a non-ideological Bitcoin user, it could make sense to just have this as your main kind of day-to-day spending and have, like, you know, hardware wallet for something else, right? So yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense there." }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "11:40", "start": 700.0, "text": "Yeah, and I think something that has become more clear as we've been thinking about this too is like, obviously we have Cake Wallet, like, Radar is built by the same team that built Cake Wallet, new company, new product, but built by the same underlying team so far. and something that's become really clear is There's only so many people that actually want a standalone wallet for Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency. That's a relatively small market. The number of people that want to be able to send and receive messages with friends and family and also send money that way, that is essentially ever-- everyone on Earth, everyone wants to be able to do that. We've seen how popular that's gotten with Telegram, with, with WeChat and WePay and, and all of the solutions that are out there for that. So a lot of the focus here isn't, it's not really about like Radar being another Bitcoin wallet It's much less about Bitcoin being front and center than it is about showing people, hey, Bitcoin can fit into your everyday life and make it better. It's not something that you just have to choose because you're ideologically driven or because you, you feel like that's a necessary change in the world, but just 'cause it's actually the tool that makes this everyday thing that you do already much, much easier. So a huge focus for us is, I think this is a fantastic way to get Bitcoin in the hands of and being used by people who, they would never go Download Cake Wallet, they would never go download, Zeus Wallet, they would never go download Phoenix. They weren't going to use a standalone Bitcoin wallet, but, oh, I actually, my friend's already on Signal, this one, oh, they can send me some, some Bitcoin if I jump on this one. Okay, yeah, I'll do that. And then they just get used to the ability to send money like that seamlessly in a permissionless way, and they realize I don't even have to, like, give them my ID, I don't have to link my bank account. It And be something that gets people using Bitcoin who would never have touched it in the first place." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:31", "start": 811.0, "text": "Yeah. So, I mean, sounds interesting to me. Let's talk a bit about the maximums then. So, is it kind of obviously, or at least you tell me, is it mainly just a spending wallet? The idea is not that people are storing large amounts. Do you have maximums in terms of transaction limit or amount that you can hold inside of Radar?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "13:46", "start": 826.0, "text": "Yeah, I mean, there's, there's no technical maximum. it might be a good idea, seeing how some people have used, like, Cake Wallet in the past, and you, you always have like random people come in. There might be some YOLO users who" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:56", "start": 836.0, "text": "just kind of store way more than they should be on that. Yeah, yeah, I'll just put my life" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "14:00", "start": 840.0, "text": "savings into it, into a hot wallet. Yeah, there's no maximum right now. I mean, obviously, the intent again isn't that it is a Bitcoin wallet, it's that it is the, the People need to keep large balances 'cause they'll be, it'll be going both ways all the time. but yeah, this would definitely be something that you, you should put in the like, the hot wallet trust category. Don't put more in there than you're willing to lose when you actually are trying to, like- Protect life savings, obviously you're going, you're going further, you're using a good hardware wallet, you're backing up your seed phrase separately, you're doing all of those, those good kind of, financial hygiene things that come with it. Yeah. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:41", "start": 881.0, "text": "then in terms of the backup then, so is it, is it the same as your Signal or your Ray-Radar backup that's like a cloud backup? Or and also the additional seed phrase backup, that is, if you, let's say your device fails or you lose it, this kind of thing, that's what the recovery method is, right?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "14:57", "start": 897.0, "text": "Yeah. So you have two paths. One, which is the, the default and happens, for everybody, is that your private keys are encrypted in your Signal account. Not even Signal can access them, only you can, if you have the, the PIN code, and the phone number that you signed up with. So that is the, the simplest way is just everybody has their keys automatically backed up to their Signal profile. I know that some people won't love that, more hardcore Bitcoiners, but obviously that's, I think it's a reasonable trust model where if your Signal account, your radar account is pwned anyways, that means someone has your phone number already. And they have whatever your PIN code was for it at the same time, you have bigger problems at that point than losing fifty thousand sats or something in your Radar wallet. So that's the default, that's what everyone will get. For those that want the, the extra layer of security, you do have a standard twelve-word seed phrase within Radar. so once you actually receive funds for the first time, once you have a balance, you'll be prompted in the payments tab to backup that seed phrase, verify it, just like a normal Bitcoin wallet would, and that's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:58", "start": 958.0, "text": "the kind of the, the" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "16:02", "start": 962.0, "text": "So you can receive to on chain, but it's automatically converted into Spark. so the, the, the wallet would work in any Spark compatible wallet. So you could take that twelve word seed phrase and restore it into Wallet Satoshi, Cake Wallet, Blink Wallet, etc. I see. So it's kind of common" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:15", "start": 975.0, "text": "across the Spark, let's say, family of wallets. I see. And then if you are doing a payout to an on chain, let's say you have a Lightning balance, is there like an auto swap out for an on chain payment or no?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "16:27", "start": 987.0, "text": "So yeah, you, you technically can do it, and it's, it's just a little-- obviously it's time-consuming. I don't expect that many people will be doing that at this point, but yeah, you can send on-chain addresses, and it's, it's similar to like on the liquid side, the peg out kind of thing where you're, you're waiting longer for that to actually complete. I think it takes six confirmations before it will actually be," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:47", "start": 1007.0, "text": "oh, gotcha, okay, so it's not being recognized on the other side. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask some of the privacy questions. So I guess tying your, you know, messaging to your phone number to your Lightning payments, you know, is that a privacy concern for people or how do you see that?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "17:10", "start": 1030.0, "text": "Yeah, I think there's, there's a little bit of confusion here 'cause I think one of the nice things about the approach that we've taken here is that no, no one entity has access or visibility To all of these things. Like us at Radar, we have no visibility into anything actually that you're doing. no analytics, nothing like that. Signal, they, they host the messaging network that you're using, so they have visibility into your phone number and your username, but they don't have any, any visibility into your payments. Payments are all sent as signals and encrypted messages. They have no visibility, no ability to see what those payments are happening. They don't know if they're Bitcoin, MobileCoin, they don't even know if they're payments. They just know that their messages happen Within the Signal network, they don't even know who they're between. So the, the, the already existing fantastic privacy properties of Signal's messaging network are really important here, but also the fact that Signal has no way to connect your phone number or username with your Lightning transactions, either, with your Spark transactions. Like I said, they don't even know that you're a Spark user or that you're using Lightning or that you care about Bitcoin. They have no visibility into that at all. Likewise, the Spark entity themselves, they don't know that you're a Radar user, they don't know that you're using Signal, and they never get your phone number, your Signal username, anything like that. So all of these things are kept distinct, and one of the reasons why we really liked and wanted to use Signal's existing protocol and network is They've already nailed it. Like, yes, the phone number requirement is a little bit annoying, but it works really well for spam prevention, which is why they've stuck with it. And the way that they actually handle all of that is very, very, very good. So I think the, the concerns are usually a little bit overblown when it comes to that. But the, those things are always kept distinct. None of those parties can tie those two things together, so your phone number isn't being tied to your Bitcoin payments or anything like that when you're using Radar." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:00", "start": 1140.0, "text": "I see. Now, you are, as you mentioned, you are using the Signal network. Is there any kind of possibility that Signal would get upset about what you're doing, or they might try to kick you off or kick you out somehow, or how would that work?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "19:13", "start": 1153.0, "text": "Yeah, I mean, it's, it's possible. I would hope not. like one of the things that, that, we just posted about today is that we're, we are donating monthly to Signal to help support the foundation, and we'll be ramping up those donations as we grow in users and, and profitability over the, the coming months and years. We definitely see this as something that should be a, a, a rising tide that lifts all boats and should be complimentary to what they're doing. The one downside of what Signal does, and I don't think it's, An architectural flaw, but it's an approach that they've taken that is reasonable, is that is, it is centralized server architecture, and while the server code is open source, they have control over who can access their server. So in theory, yes, they could try to block the user agent strings of radar users or something like that. obviously they have no like legal claim against us or what we're doing, but they could theoretically just block radar users from using the signal network. Are there other, like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:04", "start": 1204.0, "text": "non-signal clients that also use the signal network, like not just you guys? Or are you" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "20:10", "start": 1210.0, "text": "There is, yeah, so there's one called Mali that's been around for a very long time, that's been kind of more popular among the GrapheneOS, more hardcore Android scene, and they've mainly focused on keeping a lot of the core of what Signal is with a slight visual refresh, but with a little bit more hardcore security, like they do an encrypted database at rest so that when you're not in the app It actually encrypts the database every time, so if someone swipes your phone, unless they have the, the PIN or password to get back into the app, they can't actually recover any data from that. Among some other hardening things that they've done. so Molly's been around for a very long time and not had any issues. I know in the past there was some- Animosity towards alternative clients, but that was years ago when Moxie was around in Signal, so I'm not sure what their perspective is now. But one thing that's been a little confusing and weird is, like, I've been in the privacy space for I don't know, almost a decade now, and have connections into basically every major privacy organization in the space except Signal. They just have never been willing to talk, and nobody that I know in the privacy space really has a, a, a window into what they're doing or how they're thinking. They kind of play things close to the chest, which I, I understand. They're under a lot of scrutiny and have to fight back against a lot of other things like chat control, and I'm sure they try to keep things simple, but I'm hoping that they'll see this as a rising, rising tide that lifts all boats. Yeah. and there's also the potential maybe they go, \"Yeah, we really should have added Bitcoin,\" and they add Bitcoin, and that would be a, a win as well. So we'll, we'll, we'll see, we'll see." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:34", "start": 1294.0, "text": "And you mentioned fees, so I mean, obviously, you know, apps need to be sustainable. Do you guys charge a fee or how does it work?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "21:41", "start": 1301.0, "text": "Yeah, so right now there is no monetization model. again, at launch we wanted to keep it, keep it super simple. So there aren't technically fees when you spend, but there's Spark network fees, they're not something that we charge. I think it's two sats per transaction when you're spending Spark to Spark, and then Lightning fees, obviously, you have whatever the routing fees are for that specific payment. so that's the only fee in the app right now. Long-term plans, obviously, we, we wanna add the ability for people to, to top up their balance with debit card, credit card, Apple Pay, Google Pay, that kinda thing, so that users who aren't already in the Bitcoin ecosystem can get started. so that will be a, a monetization method down the line. We have some other fun stuff that we're working on as well that I think will, will be good, but trying to build something that is very sustainable here, that stays very laser-focused on the broader And, and also building something that can give back to Signal over the years is, is gonna be our focus." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:35", "start": 1355.0, "text": "So switching to, the Cakewallet side of the house, let's talk a little bit about, like, how does Radar fit into the Cakewallet, let's say, plan? Well, they, as you, as you mentioned, they're actually separate companies, so Radar isn't meant to, they're not meant to be together. We've broken up quite a bit," }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "22:48", "start": 1368.0, "text": "yeah. They're, they're meant to be separate. so obviously a lot of the Cake team has helped to, to get Radar off the ground. Vic is the founder and c-CEO, I'm the COO of Radar as well as Cake Wallet. so there's obviously a lot of connections right now, that will change a little bit as the company continues to grow. But we've, we've separated it out 'cause we wanted to, to take a very different approach with Radar. obviously Cake was all self-funded, no VC funding, really like bootstrapped from the ground up, by Vic and what he built starting in twenty eighteen. Radar, we wanna take a little, little different approach. We've had great connections with Ego Death Capital, and they're our first VC investor in Radar, and have a few others that are, are potentially investing as well. So Taking a very different approach to not only the actual business itself, but the funding mechanism, how we're actually gonna get started out of the gate, but bringing a lot of the expertise that we've had in Cake Wallet over the years. But yeah, different, different companies, different projects, but obviously the learnings as we build Cake Wallet will flow into Radar and vice versa, 'cause we, we, we do at least share leadership." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:53", "start": 1433.0, "text": "Yeah. One more question on the Cake Wallet side. I, I had a recent episode with Craig Roar and we were talking about silent payments and Frigate, which is Basically, his GPU accelerated version of an Electrum server. I'm curious, is that something you're looking at on the Cake Wallet side?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "24:08", "start": 1448.0, "text": "For sure. Yeah, yeah. No, I've been looking at Frigate for quite a while actually. we had-- we've been like constantly improving our more Let's call it more hardcore approach, where all of the sync is done client side, where you just pull the tweak data from remote server and then you do all of the, the computations locally. That approach is really nice because it gives you essentially perfect privacy from the node. The node doesn't know anything except what block heights you wanna sync, and it has no idea which payments could be yours. In something like Frigate, the downside is that you are trusting that server not to log which payments are yours, because all of the sync is actually happening server side instead of locally. You're only giving it the view Forgets over the ability to spend funds, but you do lose some privacy from the node in that scenario. So we, we've, we've pushed really hard on the more hardcore approach, but it, it just has become really clear that the actual UX is just not gonna be good enough on that side For it to be something that's sustainable. So we've been looking very deeply into Frigate, actually have deployed a production Frigate server just recently and are testing it internally. So I expect that we'll have, that functionality out, still deciding whether or not we want to default to something like that because of the, the privacy differences. But I think for most people, the user experience benefit of having, Near normal Bitcoin wallet sync experience and still having the very good privacy from outside observers is usually worth it for them, because the norm, like People don't really think about it, but the norm of a Bitcoin wallet right now is your wallet goes, \"Hey, here are all of my addresses and some potential future ones. Do I have any balance?\" Which reveals everything about all of your wallet history to whatever node you're using. Silent Payments completely changed that and said, \"You tell me some info from the blockchain, and I'll compute everything locally.\" Frigate is a little bit more of an in-between, where you're not telling, you're telling the server, \"These are my specific silent payment payments,\" but you're not revealing it to them forever, and it's, it's a-- I think it's a worthwhile in-between, so it's definitely something that we're exploring. And if" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:08", "start": 1568.0, "text": "you don't use Frigate, then there's So, I guess that's something too. okay, well, I think those are the key questions, trying to keep it short and tight for people. so just, where can people find Radar?" }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "26:24", "start": 1584.0, "text": "Yeah, for sure. So, radar dot chat is our website, you can find everything you want, there, all of our policies, info about it, a quick video to explain more about what it is. radar dot chat is the website, and then at radar chat on X and pretty much every other social platform be the best place." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:40", "start": 1600.0, "text": "Excellent. So listeners, check it out. And Seth, thanks for joining me." }, { "speaker": "seth_for_privacy", "time": "26:43", "start": 1603.0, "text": "For sure. Thanks, Stefan." } ] }