{ "episodeId": "SLP760", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "kruw": { "name": "Kruw", "role": "guest", "tag": "KRUW" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.0, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to the Stephan Livera podcast. Joining me on the show today is Kruw. Kruw is working with one of the teams who does a coordinator for Wasabi Wallet, which is a privacy-focused wallet. Kruw is gonna be joining me to chat about some updates on, you know, what's happening on the Wasabi side, as well as some up- upcoming hard forks, or forks in Bitcoin rather. So, so yeah, first off, welcome to the show, Kruw." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "00:22", "start": 22.0, "text": "Hi, yeah, thank you for having me. I've, learned a ton from your show in the past, so it's an honor to finally be on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:27", "start": 27.0, "text": "Hey, thank you. So, look, let's start with some of the updates on Wasabi. Now, it's, you know, it's been a while since we've spoken about Wasabi on the show. give us kind of the quick, you know, what are the key things that people should know about Wasabi at least nowadays, July twenty twenty-six?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "00:42", "start": 42.0, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So we just had, a huge release. Version two point eight was our first major version, in ten months, so it's even, you know, slower than Bitcoin Core that releases every six months. So if you haven't used Wasabi recently I'll just give you a rundown of like what its key features are. So it synchronizes using compact block filters to fetch your wallet without giving them away to any third party server. So this is instead of fully verifying, like you know, a Bitcoin core node, you just download the blocks that your wallet needs, that has its transactions in it, and ignore most of the rest. You get a couple false positives, but that's okay 'cause it improves your privacy just a little bit. And then on top of that, it does all this thing, Synchronization through Tor exclusively, and it's not just a single Tor IP address. You get a new Tor IP address for every single peer you connect to, every single transaction you broadcast, every single, Interaction we make with the coordinator, each uses a separated IP address, so and this all happens under the hood, you don't have to click any buttons or, or even turn it on." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:48", "start": 108.0, "text": "Yeah. And so as I understand, are you still doing that model where it's kind of automatically coin joining in the background sort of thing or not?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "01:58", "start": 118.0, "text": "So that was the original plan when there was a default coordinator, there was a company called FKE Snacks that was founded to sponsor the development of Wasabi, and in turn they could collect CoinJoin fees. However, because there's no longer a default coordinator, we've, turned off the auto CoinJoin. feature by default, but you can just turn it back on, after you select your coordinator, and you'll get that same functionality, but it's just not automatically configured." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:22", "start": 142.0, "text": "Oh, I see. So it's there, but it's not on by default. Gotcha. Okay. And then, so just walk through, like, just quickly for users, what does the experience look like? As I understand, it's a desktop app, so you, you start it up, and you have a receive address, so you can receive coins to that address, and then at that point, I Talk us through that." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "02:45", "start": 165.0, "text": "Yes, so Wasabi is a, a desktop only wallet, currently, for Linux, Mac, and Windows. There are malware versions of Wasabi in the app store, so make sure you avoid those. so the process is pretty easy, it shouldn't interrupt your normal, you know, Bitcoin experience. So in the newest little bug fix version, two point eight point one, we actually made Taproot the new default receive address. So when you click the receive button, you get your Taproot address displayed After you enter a label. So labeling is currently mandatory, so you, have to keep track of where your coins are coming from or going. After that, you can find a coordinator. Currently there's just a link to the docs in the app, but there should be eventually, integration that just scans Noster and presents you with a list of coordinators directly in your app. so after you've selected your coordinator, then There's a little play button at the bottom, and you click that, and any non-private coins that you currently have in your wallet will get slowly converted into private coins over a series of coin-coin rounds." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:52", "start": 232.0, "text": "I see. And then, what's the name? As I understand, you guys are the runners of one of the coordinators, as I, you know, I don't know, but colloquially you're the biggest one, right? So what's the name of your coordinator? So how do people know it's your coordinator compared to some other coordinators out there?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "04:07", "start": 247.0, "text": "Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. So The coordinator I'm running is just an app running on top of my node. I originally started it, with the, thanks to BTC Pay server. there was a YubiKey Bitcoin join plugin there to where you could just click a checkbox that said \"Enable Coordinator\" and boom, there you go. It's decentralized just as easily as, you know, the Bitcoin, Bitcoin network is. With a little bit of caveat, right? Like, so, yeah, there's no, additional team, you know, working with me on the coordinator part, but there are, you know, a lot of contributors to Wasabi itself, the, the, the open source project." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:44", "start": 284.0, "text": "So people should just understand there's Wasabi Wallet, the open source software, and then there are different coordinators that you can, that the user can elect to use, and you are one of those coordinators, but I guess you also sort of work with the Wasabi Wallet software team guys too, right?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "04:58", "start": 298.0, "text": "Yes At least a dozen, coordinators that have created coin joins in the past for Wasabi. I'm currently the, the one that's doing the, the heaviest volume on the blockchain by block space and by value So it's, there's at least four or five coordinators still currently, producing in parallel." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:18", "start": 318.0, "text": "We're out there. Okay, gotcha. And then I guess it matters from, you know, in terms of what coordinator you select, because that may matter for the user in terms of liquidity or anonymity set. And maybe, I guess that's the other thing, if somebody's joining with a big UTXO, that can be like doxing to them, right? Because if they're, like, joining with a, a large size. So can you give people an An idea of like the sizes that are, let's say, recommended if they are using Wasabi Wallet with, let's say, your coordinator?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "05:48", "start": 348.0, "text": "yeah, so the original research for WabiSabi was kind of focused on having a coinjoin round of at least fifty inputs. So if the coinjoin round is smaller than fifty inputs, you might not get exactly what you're looking for, at least for the fees that you're paying. But it's, it's very difficult to have like Reverse privacy by going through a coin join, right? there's just like, you know, one edge case I can think of that's, that can be avoided manually if you wanted to, but, but yeah, so it is a little bit inconvenient for the biggest whale in any coin join round, right? Because you kind of stick out because you can't, split your liquidity into small enough chunks to match all the other users, at the time. So, JoinMarket fixes this, it's a, it's the OG coinjoin software because you have this pool of liquidity, that the taker can just bid for and immediately summon those whales that they need, to get the size UTXO that they want. But I thought" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:44", "start": 404.0, "text": "it didn't support for JoinMarket stop recently, or I saw something about that, I'm not a hundred percent sure there." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "06:49", "start": 409.0, "text": "Sure. So the original JoinMarket from 2015, that project was discontinued, but there was a spin-off called, JoinMarket NG, and the maintainer for that is Moer, and he's been doing some research and, upgrades to that. So it's- Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Okay. So it is" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:05", "start": 425.0, "text": "still going, but just in a new form. Okay, gotcha. Okay, gotcha. Okay. So the same concept, but different- So there's competing models. Gotcha, yeah. And just to be clear for listeners, Let's talk, I guess, I guess there's one other thing, this idea of pay in a coin join. Can you just explain that?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "07:25", "start": 445.0, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So this is the feature I'm most excited about, that was, added into the GUI in version two point eight, that had previously been in the RPC. So this will save you Like if you're trying to do a transaction, a total of about forty minutes in waiting for confirmations for your coinjoin to get built, and it will save you about fifty-five percent in transaction fees, and it also improves your privacy, so it's just a win-win-win, for everyone involved, including other peers in the coinjoin, because they get a more accurate measurement of what their final anonymity score will be at the time the transaction occurs instead of some consolidation happening later." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:03", "start": 483.0, "text": "I see. So just, so just, talk me through some of the practicality there. So let's- Let's say the user has some, you know, he wants to be able to do a coin join and then do a payment at the end of that coin join, how long does that process normally take? Because is it the kind of thing where it might, you know, it's not an instant payment 'cause you've gotta wait for a few rounds to happen before it, before the final, you know, payment out goes? So talk us through that." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "08:27", "start": 507.0, "text": "Sure. So, here's like the ideal case for gaining privacy while also minimizing your fees. So, let's say I receive a payment from you, Stefan, and also a payment from Ben, BTC Sessions, and both these UTXOs are in my wallet, and I need to pay a third person, Guy Swan, right? And so, but I don't want any of you to know that I've interacted with the others, ever. So I could construct a transaction within a CoinJoin round where I consolidate the coin from you and from Ben, and also any other coins in my wallet that I happen to want to sweep up, and then I attach the payment for Guy directly as an output transaction or output address for the CoinJoin transaction, and then any change that I have left over I break those down into the equal amounts that I would normally do in any coinjoin transaction, so I've saved the process of coinjoining your coins first, and then Ben coins next, and then making the payment to Guy, and then remixing Guy's change. This would be a whole series of transactions I'd have to wait for confirmations between each one of them, but now this happens all in a single shot, so you're looking at maybe Thirty minutes to build the coin join, ten minutes for it to get confirmed, so forty minutes, which Bitcoin is a low time preference, that shouldn't be too much of a problem to get really good prices right? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:46", "start": 586.0, "text": "And especially nowadays, like if you're doing instant stuff, generally that's with Lightning anyway, so this would be more in the circumstance where you can wait a little bit, right? Like you're okay to, you know, if you're paying an invoice or something like this, but it's more like a supplier invoice or something like this that you can wait thirty minutes 'cause they're Wait an hour or a few, or a day or whatever for that. So I guess that's the circumstance there, but how also does that interact in the automated coin join circumstance? So let's say the user is using Wasabi and he's got his automated coin join on, and he still wants to do this pay inside of the coin join feature, do they interact or how does that work?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "10:26", "start": 626.0, "text": "yeah, so you can additionally use the automated coin join feature, and it will, it'll cost you a little bit more, but it'll also help your privacy in a very certain way, right? So, let's say, like in our example, when both you and Ben have sent me coins, what if I hold on to yours for a month and I hold on to Ben's for a year, right? Well, you can see what my profit and loss is over the period of the month I held, and Ben can see my profit and loss over the period of the year that I held. But if I have that auto coin join on, as soon as it gets confirmed in a block, it disappears into a coin join, and you don't know what I'm holding or spending either. So you can layer these on top" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:00", "start": 660.0, "text": "of each other. Yeah, okay. Interesting. And that's actually interesting as well, because I, as I understand, even from like a, when people look at like analytics, like if you Canadian, those guys, they might look at like, \"Oh, what is the age of these coins?\" and say, \"LTH, long term holders, are a hundred and fifty-five days, 'cause of statistical reasons.\" And one of the things I remember hearing is this idea that a lot of the coins are actually kind of in and out in the same block. And so I guess you guys are actually contributing, in a sense, to that or the, to the very young coins per se, because these could be the automated coin join users where they receive it and then straight away it's into the next" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "11:44", "start": 704.0, "text": "Yeah, I love the statistics here. If you've ever heard of one called Bitcoin days destroyed, you can apply that to coinjoins to measure basically what the total, amount of liquidity an external sibill attacker would need to provide in order to plausibly, you know, and" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:00", "start": 720.0, "text": "de-anonymize the other, the other users, kind of thing. So the attacker is that you, you are like some whale, and you come in with an overwhelming amount of liquidity, and then you sort of use that to kind of, kind of know, well, you know what your coins are, and Deduce from that backwards or back out kind of who are the other people who are in that round and where are they going with their coins per se." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "12:21", "start": 741.0, "text": "Right. And I wanna point out that like, this is a, like a theoretical attack, it's, it's mitigated in a couple of practical ways in, in WabiSabi. So the first thing is that, every user pays for their own mining fees. So the civil attacker would have to continually pay, mining fees to join every single round with a lot of coins, and then they would only get partial de exclude all the other users, right? So if, you know, you and me and Ben and Guy all try to join the same coin join round, even if some other guy joins with a hundred coins, we still get a bonus of privacy just between the four of us alone." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:58", "start": 778.0, "text": "Gotcha. Yeah. Now, I wanted to cover a couple other things. I know there's-- in the world of privacy, obviously this is your world, you're deeper into it than I am, but other techniques that get thrown around and spoken about are silent payments and payjoin, and so- How do you, let's say, contrast or, or are they complementary with CoinJoin? Like you see it as a holistic thing that you should do all of these things, or how do you, contrast, you know, Wasabi CoinJoin and WabiSabi CoinJoin? With, let's say, pay join or silent payments." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "13:31", "start": 811.0, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. So Wasabi offers all these tools to the user, so that they can tailor their use case to whatever they, they need. So Wasabi sends silent payments, and silent payments are especially useful for receiving donations, because each, payment you receive gets sent to a unique address that isn't visible to anyone who just knows your silent payment address. It's, there's a, a really weird edge case for where you would typically want to use a fresh address. For normal payments, but for the donations use case, Sonic Payments is, is definitely awesome. And then Payjoins is a alternative to sending your payment inside a Coinjoin. A Payjoin is itself a, a, a type of Coinjoin, specifically between the sender and the receiver. So this allows you to save some block space, because when you're, you know, doing a Wabi Sabi Coinjoin, it typically costs you like 650 Vbytes. You need like six inputs, six outputs, six or seven. But with a pay join, the sender is only gonna pay for about two hundred and ten V bytes, so it's gonna be like a third of the cost and a third of the wait time to do a pay join. But it, it, pay join doesn't provide full privacy by itself, it's just confidentiality, because your counterparty knows exactly which inputs and outputs belong to you. So as long as you do a coin join before you do a pay join, and then after you do a pay join, then you can still get all those benefits, combined." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:57", "start": 897.0, "text": "I see. And there are other users who may not care as much about the privacy, but they care about the efficiency, and that's where pay join could be really useful. And of course, we would like if more exchanges were to support pay join. I know Francis over at Bull Bitcoin has spoken positively about it, and seems like they probably will implement pay join when they can, but as I understand, it's I think it, they have it on the wallet. And so I guess, as I understand then, in terms of wallets that support Payjoin, there's Bull Wallet, Cake Wallet, and I guess you guys?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "15:29", "start": 929.0, "text": "Yes. So there's two different versions of Payjoin. There's BIP seventy-eight, which proceeded- Are the" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:33", "start": 933.0, "text": "old Payjoin version one and the new one. Okay, gotcha. Right, right. So do you support the V-V one or the V two?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "15:39", "start": 939.0, "text": "we support the V one, but Dan Gould is currently working on integrating, V two into" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:43", "start": 943.0, "text": "Wasabi." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "15:48", "start": 948.0, "text": "On compact block filters, for their mobile wallet as well, so that will vastly improve the privacy of the Paycoin ecosystem and, and the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole. So I definitely encourage anyone out there who's a developer, look into compact block filters, Bitcoin fifty-seven, one fifty-eight, it's a lightweight way to synchronize your wallet privately, like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:09", "start": 969.0, "text": "Yeah. Okay, and I know there is a, actually, you know what, let's, let's park that one to the side. Let's talk now about ClusterMemPool. So this is a, a new one. Listeners, you can check out my somewhat recent episode with Peter Vella, where we spoke about ClusterMemPool, and he was talking about it obviously at the, you know, at the Bitcoin Core level. This came in in version thirty-one. So, Kruw, can you tell us a little bit? As I understand, you are using ClusterMemPool. So tell us what you are" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "16:37", "start": 997.0, "text": "Sure. Well, it's actually, the users of Wasabi who are using, ClusterMempool to their benefit here, and the miners as well. They, they get, a little bonus. So the way ClusterMempool works is it's a smarter reordering of, the way that you create your block templates as a miner, to where you more accurately measure the relationships between unconfirmed parents and children and their siblings and aunts and uncles and so on, as opposed to just measuring linearly, for a parent-child relationship. So this is a huge benefit for coinjoins, because you have, you know, let's say a hundred users inside a coinjoin transaction, several of them might want to spend their coins at once, you know, before the transaction's been confirmed. So instead of all those bids basically canceling each other out, now they combine and miners can more accurately rationalize what fee they're getting paid and put the block, or put the transaction in the block at the priority that it deserves." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:36", "start": 1056.0, "text": "See, and so this is an interesting one because historically, as you said, the way it was being done, where people were having these heuristics on parent and child, children of a transaction, to, on what would be included in the block or not. And now, I guess we can think of it like ClusterMaple is like a smarter way to think about the ancestry and the descendants of the transactions, such that miners can more correctly understand, \"Ah, yes, this is the child of this other transaction, we should include it in this block,\" whereas before they may, they may not have. And maybe a, a possibility, right? They, they, they understand this is, you know, a feasible thing, so I'll include it where previously they may not have. So that's kind of a, a bit of a win-win situation there for the users and the miners who are doing that. And it's also win-win for all," }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "18:22", "start": 1102.0, "text": "all the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole, because if you're just a user who's just hodling and you don't even transact, right? Well, you still don't want mining to become centralized. So it's very good that this was deployed through Bitcoin Like, you know, AntPool or something, creating this as a closed source version of them for themselves that they could use to outcompete other pools. So it's, it's good for the, for everyone. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:50", "start": 1130.0, "text": "Now let's change and talk about the upcoming forks. So as I, you know, there are two main forks coming up, I know you wanted to comment a little bit on that." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "18:58", "start": 1138.0, "text": "Sure. I'm not a big fan of either of the forks, so I plan on, selling them immediately, but It doesn't matter if you're a fan of one side or the other, either side needs to worry about replay protection for their transactions. So, there's something called a replay attack which can occur when there's a chain split on Bitcoin. So whenever you create a, a transaction, you sign it, and that transaction stays valid until, you know, the transaction gets confirmed on a block and those UTXOs become spent. Now you can replace this with a, you know, RBF, and the miners will probably take that if the, if it's a higher fee rate, but, you know, more or less we consider like a, a signature on your transaction basically final. So someone can take that transaction, let's say you spend all of your coins on Bitcoin. And they say, \"Hey, I see that guy's still got a bunch of money in his, you know, Bitcoin Knots, you know, Dash Cash, whatever you wanna call it, addresses, and I'm just gonna re-broadcast his valid signature from his Bitcoin Core transaction onto the Bitcoin Knots chain and just take his money from there as well. \" So this is called a replay attack, and, you can avoid this in various ways that are, you know, deemed replay protection. Which will allow you to spend your coins where the signature is valid on one chain, but not the other. So, so I guess let's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:23", "start": 1223.0, "text": "just point out this point here. So, so just background for the listeners, there are two possible ones coming. So, BIP110, which is RDTs, Reduced Data Temporary Soft Fork. Now, this one, we're not actually sure if it will cause a chain split yet, because it, it theoretically may not happen. We'll see if it gets abandoned or, you know, what the situation is. And also, crucially, Replay protection on that one. So users will need to do some form of manual replay protection with that, whereas with the Paul Stoltz eCash hard fork, that one does have replay protection, I believe it's an N lock time marker that they have put in, so that's, at least there's some potential protection there for users who want to not get replayed on the other side. So, do you wanna explain how should people be thinking about this fork stuff and what they should do about it?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "21:14", "start": 1274.0, "text": "yes, so there's two different things you should be concerned of. So the replay protection is one thing that you need after you spend your coins after the fork happens. so an easy way to get this without having to fiddle with, you know, any sort of advanced scripting and time locks, you know, you know, bumping transactions on Either side of the chain is just to use CoinJoin, right? Because somebody before you will gain replay protection, and then they're going to put their coins into a CoinJoin, and it's gonna spread to every single output that, participates. So after, you know, the first day of, after the chain split, basically anyone who's participating in a CoinJoin will be gaining replay protection as a side effect of the privacy they gain. And the privacy they gain is also important here, because let's say you decide to dump all of your coins- Coins on one side of the chain or the other. You don't wanna establish the common input, ownership heuristic, you know, to chain analysis for all of your holdings. So you wanna do a coin join before the chain split happens, then dump your Then do a coin join after it happens to gain replay protection, and then dump the side of the fork that, you don't favor." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:22", "start": 1342.0, "text": "I see. So, yeah, so basically you're saying do a coin join before and after any kind of splitting and dumping. Now, I guess The other thing that may apply, depending on if you're using, you know, different exchanges, many of them have KYC and, and they have generally as part of that agreement, there might be some kind of surveillance on in going and outgoing coins. Has the-- have you noticed or heard of users getting their accounts, let's say, shut down or blocked if they are using CoinJoin before and after an exchange?" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "22:53", "start": 1373.0, "text": "I haven't heard of that happening in the past several years. That is a, I would call it a myth that's been thrown around a lot by people who are trying to spread FUD about, you know, long-term adoption of Bitcoin or privacy tools, is they, they kind of try and stab it in the back by saying, \"Oh, you don't wanna do that, 'cause you'll lose your coins.\" And I'm not gonna throw away that threat, right? Because it can happen, but- This is why you should use Bitcoin for goods and services. You shouldn't go through the TradFi system because they clearly don't like Bitcoin. So I've sent CoinJoin coins to plenty of places, that are centralized, and I've never had an issue. So- I have heard of issues in the past, but not recently. Interesting." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:35", "start": 1415.0, "text": "Okay. Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't have any recent examples, but I just know this is something people spoke about years ago, and it might be more like, as an example, some KYC exchange might have, they might have to do quote unquote KYT and search on if those coins came from Mount Gox or Silk Road or this kind of thing, and they, they might try to Ask more questions of the user at that point. So that's just something people have to understand that can happen. Of course, there is the peer-to-peer kind of method that people do with Bitcoin also. And so, yeah, I guess any other thoughts on the whole hard fork thing on, what to do there in terms of the timing? So I guess The, the possible chain split for BIP one ten could be around August eighth or ninth-ish around there. It just depends on the scenario, right? Like it's just hard to-- because at least as things currently stand, last I checked, I think they've got about two percent hash rate, it, it may end up being an abandoned chain, so it may literally never actually activate with, you know, BIP one ten chain side, you know, it may not-- like, it's just hard to say what exactly happens there. Now, what happens after that? It's possible that Luke, D They wanna do a proof of work change, which would be a hard fork, which would create a new coin, and maybe that, at that point, there might be replay protection, so people just have to sort of keep an eye on what's happening there over the next, you know, week or two and see what's happening there on whether there is a fork there or not, or whether it gets abandoned, we don't know. And then on the other side, there's the Paul Stoltz one, I believe that's a little bit later, like a month or two later. Do you know when around August 21st. I'm not very" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "25:12", "start": 1512.0, "text": "excited for either of them. August 20th. Yeah, I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:14", "start": 1514.0, "text": "mean, I was just, yeah, just for listeners trying to make sure they get the info. So I, I think my AI tells me approximately, the Paul Stoltz one is approximately August 21st to 23rd. So we are now the 30th of July, so, you know, whatever, 22, 23 days away or whatever. So that's something people should be aware of. Any other updates you wanna share" }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "25:40", "start": 1540.0, "text": "Black Hole, which combines, all four, deployed and battle-tested coinjoin protocols, that we've used on Bitcoin before, so Wabi Sabi, Zerolink, Join Market, and Payjoin. I think it's a really clever solution to get privacy by default for any Bitcoin user, even if they don't care about privacy, just because they wanna earn money by leaving their laptop open, which was the fantasy that drove a bunch of people to adopt Bitcoin in the first place, you know, through mining. Except for this, in this case, you don't Background money, you gain privacy while gaining background money. So I think it's very promising." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:16", "start": 1576.0, "text": "Interesting, yeah. Well, maybe that's an episode for another time, but, yeah, thanks for joining, Kruw, and listeners, we'll put the links in the show notes. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "kruw", "time": "26:24", "start": 1584.0, "text": "Awesome, thank you guys, and check out Wasabi Wallet dot io." } ] }