{ "episodeId": "SLP765", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "rich": { "name": "Rich", "role": "guest", "tag": "RICH" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:00", "start": 0.0, "text": "Hi everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera Podcast. Joining me on the show today is Rich from Blockstream. Rich is working on product for Blockstream Jade and various other, components, but today I was really interested to chat about Jade, obviously. All the recent discussion about self-custody and vulnerabilities in the space, I, I thought it'd be a good idea to, you know, just interview people from various parts of the industry and get their thoughts on it, as well as talk a little bit about what they're working on. So, welcome to the show, Rich. Thank you, Stephan. Thanks for having me. Before we get to Jade, let's just talk a little bit on the whole self-custody topic. How are you and the team at Blockstream seeing that nowadays? Obviously, with everything that's going on," }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "00:45", "start": 45.0, "text": "Same as everybody else, you know, just doubling down, going over codebase, go doing AI scans, like trying to do as much as we can to really go through our, our, our firmware, our code, make sure that everything's looking good, and thankfully, thankfully we've had a lot of different, internal and external audits of the firmware and everything's looking good. We do have a new firmware release coming out just to add more defense in depth type measures, you know, RNG looks good on the Jade side, but you can never have too much, Looking at things from that angle, also, you know, talking more about multisig and what that means for Jade, making sure that passphrase type flows, multisig flows on Jade are looking as clean and easy to use as possible. So revisiting a lot of stuff that we already, you know, had put out there in the past and just making sure that they're as easy to use as possible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:32", "start": 92.0, "text": "and so I guess give a quick overview on what the Jade device is, and as I understand, there's different models. You had like the original Jade, then you have, is it Jade" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "01:45", "start": 105.0, "text": "So Jade Classic is the original Jade that came out in twenty twenty-one, and so, you know, it started out relatively smaller device, but easy to use, so we added a really good price point on it, and started building features off of, the, the Jade Classic as people requested more things like air gap signing workflows. You know, the original Jade had a relatively small screen, a camera that was, that, that worked, but maybe not like the best resolution you could get, and so we realized we needed new hardware, which is what we- Where Jade Plus comes into play, bigger screen, so better for QR flows, which are becoming very popular, improved, camera scanning, getting a lot faster, a lot quicker, and then adding some things like firmware upgrades via SD card, USB storage device, anything you want to use there. So taking the form factor, a lot of the feedback that we got from Jade Classic, which, is more of our entry-level device, and offering something for the more advanced crowd or anyone who wants, you know, a little bit, you know, more overall, just easier to use, I think. from there, we obviously a lot of people like the bigger screen, the, and the firmware, so the, the hardware, the case. And so we went with Jade Core as more of a beginner in between the two of, you know, Jade Classic and Jade Plus share a lot of the same features, but maybe you don't need a camera, maybe those extra flows are confusing for you. So Jade Core kind of fits into that group of someone first getting into a hardware device, they just wanna be" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:15", "start": 195.0, "text": "And, give people an overview, what's the rough price point there for the Jade Core and then for the Jade Plus?" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "03:21", "start": 201.0, "text": "Yes, so Jade Core is at ninety-nine and Jade Plus, we have a plastic version and a metal version. The plastic is one forty-nine and the metal is one sixty-nine. We do have some, you know, deals going on right now as well, so you might see a little different." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:34", "start": 214.0, "text": "Then talk us through the main way you can interface with it. So obviously there's Blockstream app for the, you know, for your laptop or your PC, and then there's And of course, you can use it with other coordinating softwares like Sparrow and so on like that. So talk us through like the main way you interface with Jade. Of course." }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "03:54", "start": 234.0, "text": "So I think, you know, really we-- easy way to do it is with the mobile app, on iOS and Android. And so turn on Jade, you'll see, you can turn on your Bluetooth, you'll see it pop up in the Blockstream app, and it really is as simple as, setting up your seed phrase, you'll see, you're pairing in the app So watch only, so you can see everything going on, you can generate receive addresses, do a lot of things that you might do day to day, minus signing, directly in the app just with a face ID scan, for example, or you can also lock things down more so you do require a Jade connection to actually see your wallet, but for the most part, yeah, create your seed phrase on Jade, pair it with Bluetooth, you'll see your funds there, you can begin receive, generating receive addresses, receiving funds, when Jade is needed, Around necessarily to do the, the day-to-day operations that you normally have. we also have some cool flows where you can export a child key from Jade and go directly to the Blockstream app, so you can even do like hot Lightning wallet signing that's derived from your Jade, not necessarily signed by Jade, but trying to give you as much usability and functionality that, is possible without needing to carry your device around everywhere. Yeah, the Blockstream desktop app, USB support, we're also adding Bluetooth there as well, just for a little bit more convenience. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "05:13", "start": 313.0, "text": "On the, obviously very hot topic is the entropy side of things. I know I was looking through, you have on the Blockstream page, you have the dice roll like a PDF. And so your, I think your system is a little different because you've actually got two D sixteens and one D eight. And then so those of us, those people who wanna do the dice rolls, it's, you're actually rolling, the first eleven or twenty-three words, and it's like a lookup table. So you roll it, and then you're looking it up on the table, Three words, and then you have to, it's a different flow in terms of the setup on the wallet as well. So talk us through a little bit on the dice rolling and entropy side there." }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "05:51", "start": 351.0, "text": "Yeah, entropy in general, if you don't use the dice roll method, we use a ton of different things like the ambient temperature in the room, we have an RNG generator on device, we have, we take your button presses that you do, we take some images with the camera, so we're getting noise from all over these, different sources, and we follow an accumulator style we also get some more entropy from the Blockstream app, so even externally from, from Jade. So adding as much things, as many things as possible as we can, if you're not doing the dice roll method. of, of course, we wanna encourage people, if you wanna do dice rolls, do dice rolls. And so the method you're referring to, we had a couple of more obscure, rare dice, sixteen-sided, eight-sided, and after everything's been going down recently, they've, community's been asking for many more methods. And so Just does the final word, the checksum calculation for you essentially, which you can't necessarily just do with dice offline. And so you're not trusting the jade to necessarily like, you're typing the dice rolls in on jade and hoping that everything's being generated correctly. You're actually making your entire recovery phrase offline. And we've added, a method with coins, with six-sided dice, with playing cards. We have a lot of different ways that you can do it if you want to, whichever is more convenient, easiest for you in terms of getting a hold of these things process of, yeah, manually flipping a coin or shuffling cards and picking one, rolling dice, and you'll see the lookup table that will, you know, if you roll a three and a four and a six, whatever, what the word will be. And so you're generating this all offline, Jade is not involved at all. you write down your eleven or twenty-three words, which is the part of your mnemonic that doesn't include the checksum, and then you just need to restore that to Jade, you'll go into, the restore flow, type in those words For the final twelfth or twenty-fourth word. So really use whatever method you want, we give you some options, but, if you find one out there that you like, you feel, feel free to" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:52", "start": 472.0, "text": "use it and" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "07:52", "start": 472.0, "text": "just" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:53", "start": 473.0, "text": "use Jade for the checksum. Now the other big one is the secure element, or rather lack of, you guys are using a blind PIN server, which is a different model. and I mean, for me, the way I'm seeing it, you know, I'm not against it. I think, you know, as part of a multisig, you can have different devices, and that's actually kind of a, an interesting addition to the security of your setup. but talk us through for the listeners who- Might be expecting a secure element, what's the model you guys are operating on there?" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "08:23", "start": 503.0, "text": "Yes, we get a lot of topics, a lot of conversation about the blind oracle, a lot of questions coming in, so I do wanna be clear and help people understand how it works, because, I think there's some nuance here that's important to, to discuss. So a lot of, hardware devices have secure elements, which means that you have everything you need on the physical device technically to extract the keys. Now, secure elements are incredibly safe, you can't necessarily just go in and crack one, but in theory, everything that is needed, to take the keys is on the actual physical device. Again, not saying it's, necessarily gonna be done, but in a lab under certain conditions, whatever. So Blockstream Jade does something pretty unique, pretty interesting where We use the remote, we're kind of using like a remote secure element as we sometimes like try to help people understand, of there's your encrypted seed phrase is on your Jade and the decryption mechanism is your PIN plus the secret on the blind oracle. And so in order to actually unlock your Jade, the encrypted material on Jade, and use it to sign transactions, you have to communicate via a secure channel with the blind oracle. So essentially, you enter your PIN on the device, it mixes it with some nonce, some random information, so your blind oracle never actually sees your PIN. and it sends you back a key, and if that key was correct, Jade will be unlocked and then you can use it. After you turn it off, that key is forgotten and everything is encrypted on Jade again. And so some of this, you know, in the Bitcoin world, we get a little touchy about servers and, you know, remote connections and stuff. And so it's important to realize that the blind oracle is fully open source and it's not doing anything, Necessarily different than if you just use a secure element, and by that I mean, you know, well, what if Blockstream server isn't available? I, my Jade, I can't use it. But the same kind of thinking goes with any sort of hardware device. You know, like hardware devices aren't, your wallet. You don't wanna rely on this piece of hardware to access your funds in any situation. They're electronics, they could break, something could happen to them, you could lose it. And so, no matter what, you're relying on hardware, and you're not Mechanical electrical issue. So, all that being said, if you don't want to use a blind oracle or Blockstream's blind oracle for the convenience, it essentially functions, you know, it's kind of like a seed signer in a way, where there's nothing on Jade when it's sitting there alone locked, there's nothing to steal, and you can use a seed QR to load a wallet to Jade if you would like, but for more convenience, you can also use the PIN method of communicating with the blind oracle and unlocking that way, so you don't have to carry Blockstream Blind Oracle is down, you can still scan the seed QR into your recovery phrase manually like you would a seed signer and access your funds. No, Blockstream can't keep you from using your funds, it's just think of it more of a convenient, more convenient way to access your" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:08", "start": 668.0, "text": "wallet. Let's jump into the seed QR part as well. So can you explain what is a seed QR for people who don't know?" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "11:14", "start": 674.0, "text": "Yes, a very cool concept developed by the guys over at Seed Signer, where you're essentially taking your seed phrase and you're encoding it in a way Hand-drawable, it's very easy to draw, and so you can actually get this, QR code that doesn't need to be printed, doesn't need to be sent to a computer, it's not touching anything dangerous. You draw it with a sharpie, and it's, you know, not too many, maybe fifty to sixty dots, nothing crazy, but it is your seed phrase in QR co-QR code format. and so that lets you very easily do a multisig with a single device, for example, you can scan the QR code, load one seed phrase To sign with the second, if you have a two or three multisig, for example. And so just a more convenient way, an even more obscure way to have your recovery phrase in this format. You know, if someone got into your house and saw a list of twelve words, I feel like a lot of people kind of know what that is by now, it's even in pop culture in some scen- some scenarios. So they could possibly steal your, your, keys from that, they'll know exactly what it is, load it into a Bitcoin wallet. But a seed QR is British, so like a little bit of obs- obscurity there too, in terms of that format." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:29", "start": 749.0, "text": "I see. So then in terms of normal operation, I guess the operation, if you are using the, like most users probably are gonna use the blind oracle, server, and so that means they log in on the device and just walk us through what that is. So it's like you, scan a QR and then you're typing in a PIN, and then that logs in your-- and then you scan it back again and then now your device is" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "12:55", "start": 775.0, "text": "Yes. So what you're describing is the QR PIN unlock flow. It's like our air-gapped version of a seed QR, but you're actually using a PIN instead of eating your recovery phrase with you. So standard usage for ninety-five percent of people who don't wanna use the QR flows, they'll just connect with Bluetooth with their app, they'll tap their Jade on the app, and they'll be prompted to enter their PIN on device. And all of that secure communication is being mediated through the Blockstream app to the server. Same thing if you use Blockstream Jade directly with Sparrow, Nothing can be seen. and so whatever your companion app is, it's mediating that communication to unlock your device. what you just described is actually our air-gapped version of this. And so we can now send this information to the server without connecting to anything, and you can still unlock your Jade without Bluetooth, without USB, via the pen." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:43", "start": 823.0, "text": "Gotcha, yeah. I wasn't aware that was actually not the-- Yeah, 'cause I was thinking there's also like just like plug-in USB method, right? And I guess you can obviously do it that way too, right Gotcha. So I guess you've got, you can either plug it in with a USB, you can do Bluetooth with your phone app, or you can do this, QR method to unlock the device, and then the secret is, you know, the, the secret is live, and now it, it can sign a transaction, right? And then that's where, you know, you can start doing either single-sig or multi-sig stuff. So do you wanna just talk us through a little bit on the, what it looks like, for, on the single-sig" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "14:24", "start": 864.0, "text": "Land in the single-sig flow just naturally. we did actually have the multisig option in the Blockstream app that we took away in preparation of preparing for a better plan that solves some of the UX concerns, if anyone is aware. We have a long waiting period to reset your 2FA, can't necessarily use your second key directly in the app, and so we've been talking about what to do with that exactly. We do have plans to improve that, but aside that, we are also focusing on the multisig with just a, you know, Sparrow, for example That doesn't require a Blockstream signer, and that would entail you needing either multiple Jades, another hardware device, you could use a hot wallet on, on Sparrow, but kind of the same process. You go into Sparrow, you set up Jade, initialize it with the app, initialize your other hardware devices if you would like, and in that scenario, we actually have some cool stuff that you can do with Jade specifically. for anyone familiar with multisig, you do need an extra piece of information to restore your wallet if you've lost a key, your descriptor, and For you on device. And so as long as there is a jade in your multisig quorum and you have, two of three keys, for example, maybe you lost a key and you lost your descriptor, jade can send that descriptor back to Sparrow, for example, reload your wallet, and you can still spend with two keys. And so again, most people with Blockchain app, you're all gonna be, you'll be in single sig for now, and if you wanna do multisig, you can set it up with Nunchuck or Sparrow, again," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:52", "start": 952.0, "text": "as, as I And that's actually a good step because it helps you protect in the case of a change address attack as well, because then the device knows, this change address is mine. I, I actually control this, or I'm part of the change address, or, quorum. Because I think maybe historically there were some like possible ransom attacks and this kind of thing, so that's one thing. And then, as you said, it's a good recovery feature too, like just for redundancy sake, and, the other interesting one, that It's you guys, Boxim Jade and Bitbox02 have, which is called anti-exfil. So do you wanna explain a bit about anti-exfil?" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "16:30", "start": 990.0, "text": "Yeah, without going into too much technical detail, there's a proposed attack where someone could tweak your transactions that you're signing in a way that could leak your private keys. and so Jade does some clever stuff in combination with the Blockstream app to make sure that this attack isn't possible. just to be clear, this is only currently possible with USB and Bluetooth via the Blockstream app, 'cause you need Companion platform to be working with you in order to avoid this kind of, attack. A QR could be possible, but it would, it would need you to go back and forth and do like a scan to sign, and then scan again for the anti-ex fraud. Right. There might be more" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:08", "start": 1028.0, "text": "rounds of interaction, which would be a bit annoying and painful, but maybe some users would want that. Like maybe they're okay with that for the security. Yeah. Exactly. But anyway, I guess the, the gist of it is that historically, people like, and funnily And Stephan, Sneijder, if we're talking about what they were calling the chosen nonce attack, which is basically this, and then listeners also of recent years, there was one called Dark Skippy, which is kind of, call it in the same family or the same class of attack, is known as a biased nonce attack, where an attacker who, can bias the nonces that your transactions are being signed with, can leak your private key on the blockchain, which is kind of scary when you think about it, and, only, only two devices have a protection, well, And I guess Frost Snap, those guys have kind of a, a kind of a, a similar kind of anti-exfil protection also. So it's kind of a, you know, there's all these different ways that you can get ponied, but, I mean, I guess- You know, other devices maybe they'll start adding this kind of thing in the future, and obviously there's different trade-offs around everything, but, interesting to kind of note that that's, you know, that's one, extra protection, and even, and from a multisig perspective, that's the other thing, like maybe if you incorporate some of these devices that have anti-exfil, then you're kind of- Averaged across, your multisig quorum, it makes it harder for an attacker to pwn you because now they gotta, you know, if you have, let's say, a BitBox 02 or a Jade in your quorum, now, I guess, for now, there's a bit of a fly in the ointment because for now it's only on USB and on the Blockstream app, but, potentially in the future, maybe that would be something that, like the other multisig coordinating devices, like Sparrows and, and Nunchucks of the world I mean, other devices could also do this too, right? Like whatever, Trezor and Ledger and whoever else, they could probably do some kind of anti-exfil. But anyway, it's just-- That's one example, right? There are many ways we can get pwned, you know, in Bitcoin. Obviously, many of us are all learning. Yeah. So, you know, so that's, so that's there. and then, Yeah, I guess in terms of, I guess multisig and things like that, do you have any thought on where things are going? Like if we kind of zoom out a little bit, like, do you think more people are gonna end up, you know, being spooked by all these things going on and that's gonna scare them to the, to the custo-- to ETF and custodial, What's the, what, what is the realistic path forward for people?" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "19:40", "start": 1180.0, "text": "That's an amazing question, something that's been keeping me up at night. what does self-custody look like from here, especially for open source self-custody? I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised and pleased that it seems like a lot of people are doing their homework and they are trying to look into multisig solutions, going out and not necessarily just going to ETF, which I see is happening, you also see the guys at Bitkey doing a really nice easy multisig, and To, you know, kind of find the blend in between, which is something that we also plan to, you know, improve on and, and offer as well. But just, yeah, it's, it's hard to know exactly where things will go from here, but I am surprised and glad that people are investigating the solutions where self-custody can still be relatively safe." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:25", "start": 1225.0, "text": "Yeah, but it's just a hard question. I think no, none of us really knows exactly where it's all going, right? And I will say this, I think it's-- Now, I've been a A harder form to do, and that's why people go to, you know, Casa, Unchained, and Nunchuk and whoever else, or the consultancies, right? There are consultancies who can kind of coach you how to do it, because if you're not like really deep into this space and like using all the different hardware wallets and things, it can be hard. But I'll say this, I think- this is probably ballpark. I'm curious to get your reaction on it as well, but my understanding, ballpark numbers, globally, there's probably been something in the range of like ten million hardware wallet devices sold, right? Like Trezor and Ledger and all the others, and then out of all those devices, it might only be four or five million unique hardware wallet users, right? And then out of that five million It might only be like one percent, it might be only like fifty thousand people who are using multisig, you know what I mean? So it's kind of like, we talk about multisig, but actually not a lot of people use it, like in terms of, you know, for your Your HODL for your long, for your, you know, for your life-saving storage kind of thing. So, I'm curious y-your reaction on that. Do you think those numbers are roughly right? I do think they're right. I mean, I have" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "21:40", "start": 1300.0, "text": "thirty hardware wallets sitting on my desk right now myself, so you never know how many of us are out there too. Right, but you and I" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:44", "start": 1304.0, "text": "aren't the typical, right? That like, let's say a typical person might only buy one or two in their life, or at least in the recent few years, you know" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "21:53", "start": 1313.0, "text": "Yeah, I think that's fair. and I think that just shows, as you said, multisig is a much smaller part of that. you know, we've been trying to track some of the numbers across the space over the past few weeks, and you do see just like spikes and mentions of all these other, you know, multi-vendor, multi-sig solutions, and I, all we can do is hope that, we can keep building solutions like that that are easy to use, don't scare people away, but also have that security behind" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:14", "start": 1334.0, "text": "them. It was Blockstream Green for a while, and at that time, you had like a, a two of two model where it was like one key, you know, on the phone, one key in Blockstream server as like a recovery thing. where do you think that's going kind of longer term? Yes," }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "22:36", "start": 1356.0, "text": "we have a lot of plans for improving that and making it more usable. you know, I kind of mentioned this before, but right now we have long reset periods, very clever time lock situations where you can still recover funds without Blockstream in terms of the two Much we need to make that process more streamlined, have your recovery key be, more useful to you, instant two FA resets with both your user keys, for example. and so, yeah, something that we wanna build upon, make it even better. We have a lot of plans for that and, definitely expect" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:08", "start": 1388.0, "text": "more news soon. And so in terms of what exists in Blockstream app today, can you talk us through there? So, let's say you've got, you can have like a hot wallet single, you know, single sig just on the app, just for and then that two of two, does that still exist in Blockstream app today or it's not there anymore? Like it's only the old version that had that? It's not currently visible in the app. things could change. And then, oh, I guess you've also got the Liquid side of things, right? So for people who wanna do Liquid self-custody, Jade is something there, like if you want Liquid USDT or other Liquid assets. So talk us through a little bit on the Liquid side, for the Jade users, what does that look like?" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "23:48", "start": 1428.0, "text": "Jade About this also the, Boltz going down, but Jade was using Swap, their Bolt Swaps, swap service to, swap between Lightning, Liquid, and Bitcoin, and so- Whether you're interested in USDT, that's awesome, 'cause we have it on Liquid, the Liquid network, and you can also store your stablecoins in Jade. A lot of interesting swap functionality you can also do with side swap in terms of swapping between those two, doing some decentralized trading there. but a big use case that we saw pop up was when we introduced the swaps, is people were withdrawing from their exchange via Lightning and settling it to Liquid in their cold storage device. So now they're going straight from Lightning to Liquid, in their cold storage, but also taking advantage of the Of the, the speed and the, you know, low fees on that side. Eventually they build up enough Liquid UTXOs, they swap to main chain, and so you're also like having the scenario where you have one Bitcoin UTXO at the end of this, but you're stacking, doing a DCA, doing some sort of method like that from Lightning to Liquid, eventually going to Bitcoin, and so you're saving yourself all this trouble in the future of managing UTXOs and all these different on-chain fees, and, that's definitely been a cool feature to have with Bol All right," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:03", "start": 1503.0, "text": "so Blockstream Swaps, I saw a tweet about this. Is anything you can share for that? On that? It's in progress. We have" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "25:08", "start": 1508.0, "text": "Bitcoin to Lightning working pretty good, again, still in beta, but this has been in progress for a while, so that will be the easy slot into the Blockstream app once it's, finalized and we'll restore that functionality for everybody." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:19", "start": 1519.0, "text": "And so this would just be on-chain to off-chain Liquid, sorry, Lightning to- On-chain and vice versa, and then I presume you're gonna do a Liquid swap also, 'cause users will need that, right? Exactly. We'll have" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "25:29", "start": 1529.0, "text": "all three chains between all, Lightning, Liquid, and Bitcoin at the end of it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "25:33", "start": 1533.0, "text": "Yeah, okay. I think those are kind of the key points, because I guess, and I guess on a Liquid side note, I guess for users who otherwise would have been in a hot wallet, right? They would just be in, like, a Blockstream hot wallet on the phone. I guess this gives them some level of, you know, cold storage for their Liquid assets, whether that's like Liquid Tether or maybe they're doing, like, you know, those Liquid treasury companies or Blockstream mining node or these kinds of things like that. I know the Stalker guys are, are building on Liquid there But I guess if you're the big boys, you'd be maybe y-your stuff is on like Bitfinex or whatever, 'cause like larger values maybe. But then if you want to self-custody, these are your real options, right? 'Cause I don't think there's-- Are there any other hardware wallets that support Liquid? There's not, no. Yeah, so I guess Jade, Jade is the only game in town then for that, at, at least at the retail level. I guess for the big boys, they're doing HSM and whatever other fancy stuff, which is a different kettle of fish. okay, so yeah, let's leave it there. any closing thoughts on, Jade just for listeners who are trying to assess self-custody and hardware?" }, { "speaker": "rich", "time": "26:41", "start": 1601.0, "text": "Yeah, only thing I'll say is, you know, we've really designed the Jade experience to work for, you know, your entire journey, Get set up, that works for you, and as you're ready to move to multisig or air gap flows or anything that you're happy with, we have that too. And once you're moving along this journey, you can disable the Bluetooth in the firmware if you like, you can only do QR codes, you can do firmware upgrades to the SD card slot. So there's a lot of different things you can do, but you don't have to overthink it things at first. Jade will work for you, right at the beginning of your journey and carry you" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "27:12", "start": 1632.0, "text": "through Device, but I mean, from a multisig perspective, I think it's interesting that you can have different kinds of devices, and it can make sense to have different things inside your quorum in a two of three or a three of five or whatever people are deciding. so I think it's an interesting device, and the anti-exfil, as, as we spoke about, is also kind of an interesting differentiation, not that not many other devices have, at least for now. so that's out there, and, yeah, so blockstream.com, people can Thanks so much, Stephan." } ] }