{ "episodeId": "SLP95", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "aleks_svetski": { "name": "Aleks Svetski", "role": "guest", "tag": "ALEKS" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:09", "start": 8.51, "text": "Hi and welcome to the Stefan Livera podcast focused on Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today my guest is Alex Svetski. But first, let me introduce the sponsors of the podcast. So firstly, Kraken. Kraken are the best Bitcoin exchange. Over my years in Bitcoin, I've been really impressed with how they operate. They have a really strong focus on security. They run Kraken security labs They act ethically in the space and they're one of the longest standing Bitcoin exchanges, consistently rated the best. They've got a high quality platform with some of the best liquidity in the industry. Recently, Kraken has been making serious progress in the institutional space. It was the first digital asset exchange to have its market data displayed on the Bloomberg terminal, and recently, with their acquisition of Interchange, they are providing best in class accounting, reconciliation, and reporting services for cryptocurrency hedge funds, asset managers, and fund administrators. To learn more and sign up, go to the Kraken link in the show notes. Next up, Unchained Capital. They are a Bitcoin financial services company. They're offering a really cool two of three multi-signature vault product. You can use Trezor or Ledger wallets, you still maintain control with your two keys, and that multi-signature helps protect you against the proverbial five dollar wrench attack, as you can distribute those keys. Customers who create an Unchained Vault also get three free months of access to SafeDinnerMuse's Bitcoin Standard Research Bulletin, a fantastic resource. Fantastic resource. Unchained also offers Bitcoin collateralized loans so you can get USD liquidity without selling your bitcoins and meaning you don't trigger a capital gains, event as well. So you have to consider your own scenario, but this can be tax efficient for a hodler. And then while that loan is outstanding, your bitcoin is stored in a dedicated multisig address under collaborative custody with Unchained. So to learn more and sign up, go to the Unchained Capital link in the show notes. So the episode today is with Alex Svetski, a return guest. He is the CEO and co-founder of Amber, an Australian Bitcoin company. And so there's been a few changes in the way Amber is working. It's a-- it's acting more like a stacking Sats app. So while he was down in Sydney, I thought it'd be good to get him on the show again. And in this interview, we talk a little bit about some of the clashing visions of Bitcoin, comparing things like dollar cost averaging versus lump sum, as well as traders, as well as considering Things like Libra, blockchain, and Bitcoin. Just some fair warning though, this episode does have some swearing, so just be warned. And also, we don't get as technical into economics or technical details about Bitcoin, but rather, this episode is more about mindsets and ways to think about Bitcoin. So, here we go. We're live. Alex," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "02:48", "start": 167.98, "text": "welcome back to the show. Hey, man, this time in person. Yeah, exactly. We're looking at each other like lovers in the air, mate." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "02:56", "start": 176.0, "text": "So we're here in this, hotel in Sydney. We" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "03:00", "start": 180.13, "text": "walked up the stairs. The, the chicks at the counter are probably like, \"Where are these two guys" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:05", "start": 185.09, "text": "going?" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "03:07", "start": 186.83, "text": "\" We're doing a podcast, I swear." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:10", "start": 189.78, "text": "We're not even-- I swear we're not doing what you think. We're trying to record a Bitcoin podcast. Okay, it's all" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "03:13", "start": 193.34, "text": "about Bitcoin, I promise." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:16", "start": 196.24, "text": "No shitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:19", "start": 199.48, "text": "Yeah, man. So look, I think the topic for today is clashing visions, right? And so there are a lot of different clashing visions, obviously. Now, understand, obviously, most of my audience is more global than not just Australian, but I think- For them, it is still relevant this whole theme around dollar cost averaging, right? And so within Bitcoin, sometimes we see these debates come up. So quick ones could be between dollar cost averaging and trading, and then the other one is kind of dollar cost averaging versus lump sum. So let's start with trading. So how do you think about the way that you can explain to somebody? Dollar cost averaging instead of trading. Well," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "04:00", "start": 240.3, "text": "I, so I can speak from experience, particularly with the trading side of things. So like I have probably been trading for a hell of a lot longer than people in the crypto space who have become overnight fucking experts, right? In the last two years, right? 'Cause they started trading on Cryptopia or something and they thought they made mad gains. so, you know, I, I, I was there from two thousand and seven. I, I self-taught myself to trade warrants, options, and, you know, CFD First IG Markets accounts in Australia, so like I was in it from then, and I can tell you from experience, unless you devote All your time, energy, patience to it, and you are really methodical, unemotional, you know, you've got a system that works and it's repeatable, and you, you know, you, you run-- it's, it's a numbers game, it's a consistency in a numbers game. Unless you're doing that You're not gonna succeed at trading, you know, I, I have tried to dabble multiple times throughout the years, and it's only when I've sort of committed and done nothing else but trade that I've actually had some level of success in it. So for most people, that's not practical. For most people, they sold this idea or this vision that, hey, you can trade in your part time and you become a fucking millionaire, right? And you break it, yeah, exactly, yeah. And, and that's just not how it works, it's bullshit. It, it's, Take, you know, some sort of advantage of some ARB with a bot for a short period of time, but that stuff gets ARB'd out, and it's just, I personally think it's, it's too much work, the, the work to, the value ratio is Shit, like if I look back throughout my entire life, the amount of time I've spent trading and what I'm probably up versus what I'm probably down, like, man, I could've worked in McDonald's for fucking more money than the, the time, effort, and stress I've spent fucking around trading. Like, I've had a few big wins, like I was in very early with silver and gold, and me and my brother made a killing out of that. And then, you know, I fucking shorted the market in 2016 when Trump came in, thinking that, So it's like, I, I just fundamentally don't think it works. And human beings, we're wired to want to purchase, buy, and get involved when we're happy, when we're euphoric. And when are we most happy and euphoric? Right at the fucking top. And we are wired to run for the hills and get the fuck out of there and sell shit when we're most depressed and sad. And when are we doing that? When shit's dumping. So we inherently do the opposite of what we wanna do. So trading, I just think it's Oh, actually, one more thing. Trading in volatile environments where you get whicked out like a motherfucker, particularly with something as volatile and, and as, illiquid as the shit that we're playing with here with, like, you know, I mean, Bitcoin is liquid, but it's not very liquid, right? And then every other shitcoin is like, there's zero liquidity there. Like, you know, I don't care if you made ten thousand, you know, percent on some shitcoin, you can't sell it out at ten thousand percent by the time you I just think all of those things there make for a, a bad recipe for most people. You know, there might be a select few people who, you know, should go down the trading path, I just don't think it's a, smart strategy. And, I mean, I don't know if you, if you seen that new website, dca dot, dca btc? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:23", "start": 443.41, "text": "a great site. Fucking" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "07:24", "start": 444.05, "text": "brilliant, right? So we, we built one for Amber, but this one shits all over us. So I'm gonna start sending" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "07:35", "start": 455.13, "text": "Irrespective of the price, irrespective of, \"Ah, it might come back a few dollars, I'll buy some more,\" like, get your head out of it. You will do far better, and you can go and add value to the world, into society, in a way that matters to you, instead of trying to be a fucking crypto bro or a right, yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:52", "start": 471.72, "text": "Now, here's the thing. So obviously I'm agreed with you. Yep. But the typical way of thinking, right? And maybe it's a masculine thing, it's an overconfidence, right? More drivers think they" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "08:05", "start": 484.83, "text": "There are better drivers than the other driver, right? And that's obviously, it's not true. Same thing with trading, right? There's a lot of people out there who think they're gonna be that top two percent or whatever it is. What do you, what do you say to those people? Well," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "08:17", "start": 497.26, "text": "if you're gonna do it, devote yourself to it. Like, actually, you know, tell me what, like, let's use an example. Michael Jordan, was he the best fucking basketball player in his part time? Sure. So if, if you're gonna do that and you want, you think you're gonna be like the top two percent of the top one percent, go and fucking work on Wall Street, start a fund, like, do that full time. Don't sit there fucking run YouTube, fucking, you know, things and earn your money from that or run fucking courses. Like, as soon as you see someone running courses or doing YouTube, run the opposite fucking direction. They aren't trading, they're not making money from that. You know, they're making money from the courses." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:00", "start": 539.94, "text": "Yeah, courses. Or I don't know, man. Like Yeah, yeah. And what about now? So look, here's the other one, dollar cost averaging versus lump sum. So my quick thoughts on this. So I think from my understanding of most of the personal finance literature and so on, like mathematically, if you have the money upfront, lump sum is better. However, here's the reality. Most people don't just have a lump sum of money, they have a salary and they don't necessarily have a lot of money lying around. And the other component is psychological component. So I think DCA, dollar cost averaging, is superior from a psychological point of view. What's your view there? 100%. So the," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "09:38", "start": 578.23, "text": "the lump sum stuff is, The, the question doesn't become, \"Do you have the money? \" The question becomes, \"Your timing. \" And, you know, there's this analogy of timing the market versus time in the market, and DCA gives you the latter, the time in the market versus trying to time shit. So what inevitably happens with people who have a lump sum and they wait to invest, they find it expensive at a thousand dollars and they buy in at ten thousand when it's cheap, right? You know, or, or, you know, right now ten, and, you know, they'll be waiting My mom's one of those examples, drives me nuts, and listens to my brother half the time 'cause he, he-- my brother's not a bitcoiner, and, you know, gives me the shits, but, you know, I, I finally convinced her to buy some Bitcoin at eight thousand Australian, so just before this, you know, run started happening, or just, you know, in the early stages of the run, and she bought some. And, you know, the fucking rally hit eleven thousand Australian, and she's like, \"Oh, can we, can we sell Inevitably, a week of busting my balls, she went and did that, and now she's like, \"Oh, is it ever gonna come back down?\" So she's gonna come and buy back when it's fucking twenty grand, I bet you. So that's the lump sum mentality, and, and you end up just burning yourself along the way, whereas if you just, just- continually buys, like it just, I, I, I think, you know, in the Bitcoin space, here we are talking about, you know, low time preferences and, you know, thinking long term and, you know, That, that, predicates an appreciation of time, and then we go and spend all our time trying to time the fucking market or trade instead of appreciating our, appreciating our time enough to just say, \"Alright, I'm gonna allocate consistently without thinking about it.\" This is a land grab at the moment, you know? The analogy I was on a podcast earlier today to some like, you know, no coiners noobs. and the analogy I gave them, I said buying Bitcoin today is like being a dude thousands of years ago, swapping, rocks for gold to people who have no fucking idea what the gold might have been worth. At that point in time, they were like, \"Fuck it, I'll, you know, I'll take the rocks, here's my gold,\" and some smart dude is just accumulating, collecting that gold, you know, before it's been priced properly. So that's the, that's the thing you've got at the moment. So, you know, yes, lump sum will work if you wanna, you know, hold it, you know, for the long term, but most people, I think, will end up succumbing to their emotions, and most people will end up lump summing, you know, on or near a peak, and they'll end up fucking shitting their pants right down the bottom, and it's just- It's just unfortunate. So if you DCA your whole way through, I, I just think it's the absolute best strategy for ninety-nine point nine percent of people." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "12:25", "start": 744.6, "text": "Right. And so I'm totally agreed. I think, you know, really buying just regularly is a great strategy. Now, the other component that's difficult, right? So many of my listeners tend to be the more kind of intermediate or advanced level Bitcoiners, so they probably don't have an issue with this. What, what the deal for them is more, how do they tell their friends, \"Hey, here's how you think They are, for their friends, they're the Bitcoin guy, right? Their friends or the noob family will come to them being like, \"Oh, hey man, what do I do? Should I buy this Bitcoin now?\" And, and they are struggling to teach them, \"Hey, don't just like...\" Don't just like throw it all in, just like, you know, slowly, you know, take a position slowly but surely. How" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "13:06", "start": 786.02, "text": "do you think about communicating that? Jesus, that, that's like asking me how to describe Bitcoin in one sentence." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:14", "start": 794.46, "text": "Man, I, I mean, the change in mindset, right? How do you get them to change that mindset from just like it's a one shot investment to a regular" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "13:25", "start": 804.6, "text": "amount? I, I've been, I've been tr-playing with this recently, and, and I f- feel like, you know, that gold analogy that I just mentioned is like sort of collecting gold before everybody else understands what it's worth, is, is kind of like been-- I've been seeing people open their eyes to that, suggestion. another one is, you know, I really talk about the fact that And I kind of use myself as an, as an example. I say, \"Look, I refuse to hold, my money in something that continually is depreciated, and is losing value, you know, because it's being inflated or be- because of interest rates or whatever other, you know, exogenous or endogenous sort of, you know, circumstances or effects.\" So I said, \"I am personally trying to accumulate as much of this asset as I can.\" Now, I do it regularly every week, so I kind of use myself as an example. But I, I kind of set myself up as an extreme example of someone who's trying to swap every piece of shitty fiat that he's got to Bitcoin, and as a result, I'm just gaining territory. so then when I explain that to people, I'm saying, \"Look, you might not be as crazy as me, and you might just want to get some exposure. Here's a, Here's a way. So, I mean, I, I still haven't, like, I don't know if that answers your question, 'cause I still haven't found like a really clear-- There may not be an easy answer. Yeah, that may not be, yeah, exactly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:45", "start": 885.02, "text": "Yeah, and part of that is also, automating it, right? Yes, exactly. Because the other factor for most people, unless they are like extremely disciplined, they'll let it slip. Yep. Right? So, how do you think about ways to try to get them doing it regularly?" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "15:06", "start": 906.27, "text": "But seriously, I, I just think there's the whole reason I built this thing, man, is to just get, remove that excuse of, \"Oh, I gotta log on,\" \"Oh, I gotta do this,\" \"Oh, I gotta do that,\" \"Oh, you know,\" like, you know, and then when you log on, you're like looking at the price, you're like, \"Oh, I'll just set a limit order here, and maybe it'll just come and fill me,\" and then it doesn't, it continues up, exactly, and then what, what And then it drops back to where you had your original limit order and you wanna kill yourself. So like, I was speaking with Huss, Huss, you know, from, from Straight Huss McCook, shout out to Huss, and he was just saying like, \"Look, dude,\" he goes 'Cause he's been a Bitcoiner for a while, right? And he said, \"I, I wish I could have just set up something years ago that just 9 AM every day, irrespective of the price, just bought the fucking thing. 'Cause he goes, \"Every time I go into an exchange, I do that.\" I try and, you know, limit order and try and be smart and try and apply my, you know, my, you know, human ego to it, which is I'm smarter than the market and I don't know what's gonna happen, and then I just fuck myself over in the process. So, yeah, I, I just think The, the genesis of products like what we're trying to build with Amber, I, I hope will solve, a lot of that conundrum for people who, I mean, in today's day and age are too lazy to fucking log into an app, you know, because we got first world problems, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, to worry about. So, you know, I hope that they can just download it, fucking whack their BSB and account number in it, and just direct debit out a fucking amount, a certain amount, set a frequency, and fuck" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:43", "start": 1003.05, "text": "off." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "16:49", "start": 1009.06, "text": "Imagine, right? Again, I don't have a crystal ball, but imagine in a year or two we hit another crazy FOMO. Dollar cost averaging as a habit may help you then as well, because it might stop you FOMOing in with your life savings, right? Yep. Yep. Do you wanna touch on that? Yep, yep." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "17:03", "start": 1022.85, "text": "Well, we saw it with people FOMOing in, like, m-mortgaging their house at twenty thousand, right? Yeah. Terrible. Great job, pal. Just, Just move into a homeless shelter for the time being, just hold onto that Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:23", "start": 1043.19, "text": "Ultimate low time preference. Exactly." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "17:26", "start": 1045.87, "text": "You'll be okay one day. but look It's, it's exactly what it does, right? Because on the way, w-what it does is it, it teaches a really interesting discipline, which is you're buying more when it's cheaper, and you're buying less when it's expensive. And markets are just merely a representation of, what's cheap and what's expensive based on the collective understanding of society or the market participants at that point in time. So what we're seeing with Bitcoin is just people You know, a large majority of people who don't fucking get it, a few people who do get it, and here we are all, you know, trading and, you know, agreeing on price or disagreeing on price or whatever we're doing along the way, and, you know, those of us who are smarter, where, you know, who all-- let's not say smarter, who, who understand it deeper or who've peeled more layers of the onion off We're sort of on the side of realizing that this is undervalued, so we're, you know, trying to accumulate, whilst, you know, there's others who completely don't understand that shit, so they think it's gone to zero, like the Rubenies of the world, so, you know, they keep shorting on BitMEX and losing all their fucking money, and good on them. But, you know Doing the, doing the DCA," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "18:39", "start": 1119.3, "text": "again, it just removes that, removes that emotion and then just replaces it with this sensible Buy more when it's cheap, buy less when it's expensive, and remove the noise from the market because there is just so much noise in markets, there's noise in life, there's noise in the world, there's noise on fucking Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, everywhere. There's too much fucking noise. At least, you know, products like Amber will help remove the noise from your, you know, financial life. That, there's my new slogan. Right. Remove the noise. That's it. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "19:10", "start": 1149.73, "text": "Yeah, that's great. And so, look, I know you recently slightly pivoted Amber as well, right? Because in the past, and I think the first time I had you on the show, there was a slightly different conception. It was more like a Roundup app, right? It was like Acorns but for Bitcoin kind of thing. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "19:26", "start": 1166.44, "text": "yeah, yeah. Whereas now it's Spare change is limited by the banking infrastructure. You'd-- people need to give up their banking credentials to allow a product such as, you know, Amber or Rays or Acorns or any of those to basically look at all your transactions, work out the roundups, and then perform a direct debit. But the direct debit still can't be performed till you reach a threshold of five dollars anyway. So we're sort of like Thought, well, fuck the roundups, like we're, you know, we're not debiting till five bucks, so just give people the ability to just debit from five bucks. Exactly. And, and, you know, now you've got more control, you can DCA in, it's, it's up to you, and we can throw out the whole spare change stuff. We may bring spare change back, but we will bring it back in a different iteration. So like I don't even know if this is possible yet, but maybe integrating with Apple Pay somehow, you know, or, you know, so, so that way we don't have to look at your transaction, or we don't have to look at your statement, we can just take it on a per transaction basis. I don't know how that will work with the inf-- banking infrastructure because it's all just so shit and fragmented, but we may be able to bring it back in that type of genesis, or we may look at, introducing like a, an Amber card, you know, where" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "20:39", "start": 1239.39, "text": "That gimmicky thing again, but I just think we sort of transcended the roundup narrative and we went for the DCA narrative, which was the crux of why we did roundups in the first place. And it's just made the product so much smoother, like, you know, if anyone was listening to us back then and, you know, didn't wanna sort of share their bank credentials with the fabric software they were using and all that sort of stuff, now you don't need to. BSP account number, Bob's your uncle." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "21:01", "start": 1261.37, "text": "Off you go, nice. Yeah. So, a couple things there then. what about the ability to withdraw the bitcoins out? So where are you guys on that?" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "21:10", "start": 1270.0, "text": "It's, it's available. So people just need to ask for it, right? And the, the reason we don't market it too much now is because we don't have an automated system, like because we cold saw everything, it takes a couple days to like get the multisig done, you know, yada, yada, yada, and send it to I'll end up having a lot of transaction fees. Requests, yeah, exactly. Too many requests to do it, exactly. And because we do it manually at the moment, it's just a pain in the ass. So if people request it, done, you know, within, within probably forty-eight hours they got their Bitcoin and happy days. In the coming weeks, we're, we're almost there. We've, we've made it a lot faster now. Like before it was taking three, four days because we had to, you know, access the cold storage and all that. Now what we've done is we've actually just got our own float, so it, it doesn't actually touch the customer's funds. we just have our own float and we pay it out of our own float, so it's quicker and we can actually even probably get it done same day now, And then we just balance out the, the amounts later." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:09", "start": 1329.3, "text": "Right. Yeah. Because I think that's a legitimate concern customers might have. Obviously, rule one of Bitcoin, not your keys, not your coins, right? Yeah. so it might be a good way for them to slowly start accumulating, right? Get a newbie in. Yep. And then once they've kind of accumulated, you know, maybe a few hundred bucks, now is the time where they need to start learning to, yeah, take possession." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "22:28", "start": 1347.71, "text": "Yeah. So we're gonna, introduce like a DCA" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "22:36", "start": 1355.72, "text": "Which is, when we release withdrawals, we'll release it with some features that are like, hit a certain threshold of Bitcoin or dollars, you can set some rules in it, and it'll automatically send to your whitelisted address. You don't have to fucking think about it. So again, I, I just wanna make this so-- I wanna make this so automated that, you know, you're accumulating and then you're- Storing your Bitcoin in, in a way that you're, you're as safe as possible and you take your own, you, you get out of your own way." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:03", "start": 1383.31, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, because I think we are our own worst enemies with some of this. We are, we are, we are, yeah. And it's very easy to- Start thinking, \"Ooh, like, what if I try to sell and buy a bit cheaper and whatever, all that, rather than sort of really zooming out, which is a more appropriate way to think of it.\" Absolutely. Yeah. Anything else to touch on with Amber? No, man, look, let's go into, I think you had an article about, it was again this, this theme of clashing visions, right? You got Libra, right? This idea of a, a corporate-created shitcoin, yep, and then you've got, you know, blockchain technology, right? Which I know you've also been-- Whatever that means. I mean, you and I have both been very vocal about our thoughts on the so-called blockchain technology, and then you got Bitcoin, yep, right, which" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "23:52", "start": 1432.37, "text": "Thinking there." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "23:55", "start": 1434.96, "text": "where do I start? Well, I'm just trying to see, I, I'm actually gonna pull up that article so I've got it in front of me, and then we can, we can hit a couple of those notes." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "24:09", "start": 1448.62, "text": "there we go. Yeah, so, so I just, I, I managed to get it listed on Blockchain Dot News." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:14", "start": 1453.96, "text": "Alright, what is it? I don't even know what that is." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "24:16", "start": 1455.56, "text": "It's, it's some online publication, like, and, and, you know, they, they do news and events and everything, what's going on. Right. But, and then, you know, I basically-- So, so the name of the article was \"Blockchain, Bitcoin, and Libra: What's Bullshit, What's Brilliant, and What You know, deep dive on to, you know, what, what is Libra? Is it, is it actually a blockchain or they're just using that term like every other fucking large corporate uses the term to sound hip, right? You know, they're just using some sort of, you know, slightly more advanced database infrastructure, if that, you know, or maybe it's some, you know Got some redundant fucking servers on it or, you know, it's got a consortium that's managing it. So, so none of that stuff matters. And what I tried to run through in the article was that one of the things I think that makes Bitcoiners angry about the whole blockchain narrative is that There might be some benefit to consortiums, sharing a ledger or sharing some sort of state thing within their consortium, and they might, you know, use it to get better checks and balances, and they might, you know, create some form of efficiencies in there. I don't fucking know how their infrastructure currently works, but there may be some commercial internal benefit for them. I think the problem is that they're taking the Bitcoin narrative, which is this narrative about like the, the fundamental- Reinvention of money, payments, sovereignty, identity, look at all of these things that Bitcoin, reinvents, decentralization, et cetera, and they're trying to use the, The, the ethos or the, you know, I think, you've mentioned this word before. It's, it's kind of like affinity. They're, they're, they're using the affinity of, you know, this invention of Bitcoin and applying it to the fucking minut- Incremental innovation that they might be able to, you know, you know, suck out of hashing fucking blocks of data together or whatever they're doing on their side of things. And, and I think- What that does is it inherently dilutes, you know, the, the strength or the, the depth of what Bitcoin represents. And on top of that, they go one step further by saying, \"Oh, yeah.\" Bitcoin, you know, was this thing, but we've, we've, yeah, we've transcended this, yeah, exactly. When in reality, they've like taken a fucking breadcrumb And, you know, they've, they may have created some sort of, efficiency within their own infrastructure, and, and that's fine, but that isn't gonna impact society. It's not gonna change anyone's fucking life. It might add some dollars to their bottom line, or more realistically, it might add some extra, you know- dollars to IBM and the Big Four who are selling fucking blockchain solutions exactly for ten x because they slapped the word DLT or blockchain on it. Like that's the real benefit there. So, a-and one of the things I noted in there was You know, Libra didn't give a fuck about blockchain. What Libra is is an attempt to build or to create a non-sovereign money. That's the fucking battleground, not blockchain. No one gives a fuck about-- no one with a brain gives a fuck about blockchain. What people care about, or, you know, what the real fight is about, is about a, a- A money, literally a new form of money, and that's why governments and, you know, all this sort of shit are up in arms about Libra because now, like, I actually think that Libra's probably red-pilled more people into Bitcoin than most things, because people, you're seriously, 'cause people now have the conception that Maybe a non-sovereign, non-state issued currency could be a real thing? And, oh, but that Bitcoin thing, isn't that similar? Oh, wait a minute, but Bitcoin is like- The, the antithesis, like it's the, the money owned by the people that's non-sovereign, that is, you know, uninflatable, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whereas this thing is, it's non-sovereign but feels a bit fucking 1984 to me. So it's like You know, initially I was like really confused about, I wasn't sure if it was a payment mechanism or if it was a new money or if it-- what the fuck it was. But now, like, the more I've sort of, you know, got my head around it, I'm like, \"This is big.\" It's very big for Bitcoin, 'cause it inher-inherently validates Bitcoin, and it also validates Bitcoin's decision or the, the, the, the broad consensus to keep Bitcoin this-- to, to optimize for sovereignty, for censorship resistance, for un-inflatability, for uncompromisability, whilst all the other shit coins optimized for smart contracts, for speed, and for all the shit that Libra could do with a fucking snap of a finger, literally made everything else obsolete and validated Bitcoin, and has put in in the minds of people, the very, the seed that a non state issued currency is possible. So I, I think it's gonna be really fucking interesting long term." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "29:06", "start": 1746.4, "text": "Yeah, yeah, for sure. Let's, let's simplify it a little bit. So one way to think of it might be Pipelines and then the oil that flows through that pipeline, right? So with Bitcoin, obviously this can get confusing, right? Because in the old days we had this convention of capital B Bitcoin and small b Bitcoin, right? One referred to the payment network, as it were, or maybe you wanna, if you wanna, you know, not get too triggered, it's like think of it like a settlement network, right? And Bitcoin, the, you know, the monetary token, right? But then Libra is, has its own kind of equivalence, right? Because it's got, obviously, its own Basket currency, right, which will be comprised of many other monies and its own little highly centralized, highly controllable, censored pipeline payment system through which the oil, yep, the Libra oil can flow through, yep, yep, yep, yep. So how do you think about- You know, the way you compare those in terms of like the Bitcoin oil versus the Libra oil." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "30:01", "start": 1800.53, "text": "Yeah. Really good analogy, man. I actually hadn't heard of that before today. I, I-" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "30:10", "start": 1809.81, "text": "what to comment?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:11", "start": 1810.99, "text": "To me, it just, I think it just, to me, it, it, it really, the way I think about it, it's like, it shows that even Bitcoin's payment network Is superior from that kind of nonsensical way, right? Because obviously the questions all the, the US government people were asking were like, \"Hey, can Milo Yiannopoulos use LibraCoin?\" And, and David Marcus didn't have a good answer, right? Because they nailed him on this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "30:35", "start": 1835.42, "text": "I guess it's just, I think this meme sums it up is Facebook launches Libra, US government sends cease and desist to Zuckerberg. You know, Satoshi launches Bitcoin, US government sends cease and desist to dot dot dot. It's like that That piece right there sums it up because the, the, you know, the Facebook and the consortium and the whole Libra thing, they're not fucking stupid, you know? They, they're not, you know, they didn't go out to create an enterprise blockchain, you know? They, they went out to literally- Do what Bitcoin was doing, but, you know, within their infrastructure, so within their pipes and with their own oil. A-and, and that, that is like, that's the, that's the paradigm shift of our generation. The paradigm shift of the prior generation was the internet coming up, right? The, the paradigm of shift of this generation is the creation of a new money. And, you know, they're, they're going for the fucking big, you know, ticket, which is, which is, as you've described it, the, the, the creation of a new oil That is the thing that, you know, society functions off, and, and then, you know, the infrastructure and the pipeline that's gonna be built off that. So, I guess the question is gonna then just come to people is, which oil, you know, do you wanna use? Do you wanna use, you know, the one that can very easily go down the path of becoming China's social credit score system? Right. And" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "31:56", "start": 1915.81, "text": "it can get blocked very easily, right? It's very, it's not very, liquid, right? Exactly, yeah, yeah," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "32:01", "start": 1921.08, "text": "yeah, yeah, yeah You, you know, it's got trapdoors and shit everywhere, you know what I mean? So like versus the one, like, I actually, I, I got asked by Brady from Citizen Bitcoin, like, you know, ages ago to, you know, sort of say, \"What do I think the next fifty years looks like?\" Yeah. You know, I actually now think the next fifty years looks like, you know, a world where you've got, liberty, freedom, and economic rights and the ability to have property rights, privacy, and all that sort of stuff on this Bitcoin economic That's increasingly feeling like, you know, an Orwellian nineteen eighty four slash Chinese credit score system slash The Suckbox. You gotta ask, fucking, you, you gotta like, you can't say shit, you, you like the wrong thing on fucking Facebook, and all of a sudden you can't buy your groceries, and you fucking go hungry for three days, and they teach you a lesson, and you never say that shit again, get sent to re-education camp. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "32:59", "start": 1978.55, "text": "Dude, it's so... I mean, people really need to think about how important the Bitcoin innovation really is, because without that, we're all fucked." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:08", "start": 1988.44, "text": "Oh, I'm totally with you, right? And I think the other thing to layer on is Patrick McHenry. He-- Patrick McHenry rather. He said there's no capacity to kill Bitcoin. Yes. Very important. Yep. Because he was a ranking member on that financial committee, and if he is saying, \"Look, America is a country of innovation, we don't want to un- Julie or even try to shut this down because, first of all, we know we couldn't, even if we tried, and we would just push all the innovation elsewhere. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "33:38", "start": 2018.02, "text": "exactly. Well, I mean, America needs more of him, honestly, like, and it'll start sounding like what fucking America was a hundred years ago, not the clusterfuck that it's become, but that's my comment there." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "33:48", "start": 2027.89, "text": "Hahahahahahahahahah. And so look, now here's the other thing. Let's layer on another idea. So those people who are already libertarians, they'll be down with this straight away. But let's remember, the percentage of libertarians probably in Australia, if I had to guess, it would be like one or two percent if you're lucky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do you appeal to those other people? One thing I'm thinking is Orange Coin number go up, right? It's literally, they come for the" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "34:12", "start": 2052.15, "text": "gains Selfish, answer, but like as a, when people ask me, they're like, \"Oh, how you gonna get people to buy Bitcoin?\" And so, so we've optimized it as an investment app, that, that's sort of how we position it, it's a micro-investment app. Like, we originally had the, the, a lot of the wording was about savings and micro-savings, and like, we wanted to treat Bitcoin as this savings tool. But, you know, what we found was that people were like, not interested in saving, like if they wanted" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "34:48", "start": 2088.26, "text": "The best way to red pill these people is to give them the promise, or at least the, the, the indication that there's a better future ahead, and by, you know, subscribing to the idea of Orange Coin go up, you know, they will have the opportunity for a better future. So fundamentally, I mean, greed is the human emotion that's the driver that, you know- Is behind all of our innovation, all of our striving to do more, et cetera. You know, like, you know, Gordon Gecko was right, greed is fucking good. You know, without that inherent emotion inside us, we wouldn't get off our fucking asses. You know what I mean? So, if we can appeal to that initially, and then somehow, it's, it's the, it's the Bitcoin meme, right? I came for the fucking gains, and I stayed for the, you know, community, or I stayed for the, the drugs, I stayed for, The way to red pill people is to say that, you know, hey, ten bucks worth of Bitcoin five years ago is now worth thirty grand, here's ten bucks, you know? Get involved, get started, you know, a-a-a-and when people start like, man, my, my, my girlfriend's parents like, convince them to buy some Bitcoin too. And now the dad, he's on the fucking app every day looking at the price and sending me price reports, it's like, \"Bitcoin's at fifteen thousand now, should I buy more?\" It's, it's amazing what it does to people, right? So it's, Yeah, fascinating, man. So, I, I think OrangeCoin go up is, is the initial piece that we need to get, you know, i-it's the initial crack and crevice. Now, as things- Progress geopolitically and macroeconomically and all that sort of stuff, and, you know, the, the, the narratives of, you know, store of value and, you know, self-sovereignty start to really pick up, you know, we'll, we'll find people from other walks of life that are interested. You know, we'll get the doomsday preppers, we'll get the fucking-- Oh, we've already got the preppers. We've, we've-- I think we've got a lot of preppers, but I still feel like a lot of the pre" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "36:59", "start": 2218.54, "text": "I think, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll become increasingly interested in Bitcoin, and so all of that sort of stuff will, will happen. Yeah," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:04", "start": 2223.95, "text": "like maybe they, those guys will be part of the impetus for things like Ham Radio, or Lot forty-nine, mesh networking, these kinds of ideas as well. So that's another kind of thing. So I think that's another thing as well. It's kind of like Bitcoin is this Pac-Man, and it's going around the world, just eating up different, you know, people, and then it's taking on a new" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "37:21", "start": 2240.52, "text": "whole" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "37:29", "start": 2248.66, "text": "It, it, it is that though, right? It is like literally eating up not only all the other fucking shit coins, but eating up all the other fucking money, all the other narratives, all this other, you know, infrastructure, payment infra-- It's eating everything up." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "37:42", "start": 2262.17, "text": "Like, I'll tell you what, another thing that's really interesting as well, is that despite the millions of dollars of marketing budget that these shit coins have and that the blockchain technology people have had, they still weren't able to beat the power of the ideas of Bitcoin. Correct. Yeah. The ideas of Bitcoin were stronger than All of that." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "37:59", "start": 2279.31, "text": "Well, money talks, man. That's the thing. So like, i-it is, that, that is testament, at least, to the fact that we still have At least the remnant of a society that is still, you know, partly capitalist and that, you know, people's self-interest is still what's more important, and, you know, collectively we will move towards what we are, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll move towards what is Of interest to ourselves first and foremost, and, you know, Bitcoin represents the first time we've been able to create a system where whilst working in our own self-interest, we're working for the interest of the collective, right? And it's just so fucking powerful that- That was able to be created, and whilst everything else is like this, you know, the, you know, working in a blockchain self-interest doesn't like create anything and it's like just noise for somebody else. Like, it's just-- I feel sorry for everyone on that side of the, field, to the poor xRP army. Oh, dude, for, for all of them. I, you know, for the social justice warriors in Ethereum, for the deranged lunatics in the xRP army, for the fucking shitcoin bag holders Who are thinking, like, man, it's-- And then for the no coiners who are too fucking arrogant or too ignorant to even want to listen to it, like, I got knocked back by, you know, Koshy like the other day, like, 'cause we're, we're doing some PR stuff for Amber. And literally, he, here's the feedback that I'm getting from the media companies at the moment is, \"We don't wanna cover Bitcoin because we don't think it's a good thing to cover as an investment product, but we'd be interested to hear about, you know And I, I lost my shit. Like, you know, the, the shit that we got back from Koshi was like, \"Yeah, sorry, you know, w- you know, we, we'll never support scams or, Ponzi schemes on our network.\" I was like, \"Are you that, like, intellectually, like, ignorant or lazy to not wanna look into it?\" And, you know, what, what I told, A couple of them, I was like, \"Alright,\" I said, \"I'll be available when, Bitcoin's back at a hundred grand, and you'll be, you know, scrambling to find someone to talk about it.\" So it's just, I don't know, man. Like," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:09", "start": 2408.91, "text": "yeah, they're stuck in, Blockchainland. And, oh, here's another funny one, right? So people, so obviously you and I are in this world, right? But people who are looking at it from the outside, they think, \"Oh, you Bitcoin people, you're" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:27", "start": 2426.62, "text": "Everyone, and it's like," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "40:28", "start": 2428.13, "text": "hold on," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:29", "start": 2428.51, "text": "I don't think you understand what's going on here. Like, you know, what do you think about that? Well, dude, it's," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "40:37", "start": 2436.53, "text": "well, well, tell me where you're going with the tribalism piece. Yeah, as in, so for" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "40:39", "start": 2439.07, "text": "example, like, they will think of it like, \"Oh, you guys are paying out all the other cryptocurrencies.\" Like, from our point of view, we're like, \"Well, hold on, those cryptocurrencies aren't as liquid, they're not as secure Think, oh, you guys are just being tribal, whereas from our point of view, it's more like, no, we actually think there are better characteristics about Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "41:03", "start": 2463.25, "text": "Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So, so what you're saying there is people perceive our arguments as tribal, whereas we understand our arguments as logical, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, correct. a hundred percent, man. I mean, it's just- The, the people who say that, they say that because they've taken an anecdote somewhere or they've heard something that sounds nice. Like, I'll give you an idea, an example. Equality as a concept sounds nice, right? Everyone's like, \"Oh yeah, we should all be equal,\" right? But when you start to understand it practically, you start to realize that the only way, like, to create equality is through violence. So then you gotta ask the person, \"Well, do you believe in violence?\" \"No, no, no, I think we should have no violence.\" And question that, it's like, how do you enforce no violence through, you know, violence? Like, there's no other way. So a lot of these, you know, outsiders or shitcoiners and all of that, they buy into these veneer ideologies where they hear things that sound theoretically nice, but in practice don't fucking function, because in the real world, everything comes with a trade-off. There is no such thing as being on the complete one side of a fucking spectrum. Everything has a trade-off, you know? And I love Nick Carter's article that he wrote about, like- Bitcoin chose, consciously the trade-offs that it wanted to make along the way. Bitcoin's biting the bullet. Correct, it was biting the bullet exactly. That article was fucking brilliant because it chose those trade-offs along the way consciously, not- The, the deranged fantasies of the shitcoiners who went out and built their own things, who are like, \"Oh, I'm here to fix Bitcoin. Oh, looks like I can't fix Bitcoin, so I'm gonna go spin off my own shitcoin, and I'm gonna fucking be the savior of the world.\" and- You know, they think they've made no trade-offs, but, you know, I mean, let's bring it back to Libra. Libra is an example of them becoming now fucking irrelevant because nobody's gonna use their shitcoin with fast payments when you got two billion people on Libra and they've got six people still trading their coin on fucking Binance, right?" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:07", "start": 2586.75, "text": "Right." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "43:07", "start": 2587.09, "text": "It's like, it just shows that- The real world, the world of practicality, the world of logic, comes with the ability to be-- d-d-d-comes with the requirement to understand things deeply, and in understanding things deeply, comes with the realization that there are trade-offs in the real world that you must make, and in the process of making those, you need to optimize for what, for the outcome that you want to achieve. And, And that's what, you know, the people outside of Bitcoin don't realize. They think like, \"Oh, you're just deflationists,\" or \"You're just the fucking bigot,\" or \"You're, you're toxic,\" or \"You're a tribalist,\" you know? That they haven't taken a moment to understand the depth of thinking that we've gone through, you know, over the years of being involved in this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "43:56", "start": 2635.81, "text": "Yeah, right, exactly. And I think one point you're making there is kind of like Libra is killing the shitcoins, right? Or all-- Every other shitcoin, right? It still is itself a shitcoin, but it's basically killed all the other shitcoins. And then so it's kind of like becoming this almost like a three-way race then, if you will, like the kind of Libra, USD, or Bitcoin. It's How does Bitcoin, if it does, does it win against those?" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "44:25", "start": 2665.39, "text": "I'm gonna answer it in funny way, alright? So because I believe money is fundamentally a belief system." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:34", "start": 2674.48, "text": "right. So Neil Woodfine is on your case right now, watch out." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "44:39", "start": 2679.36, "text": "look I, I believe fundamentally what we do as human beings is, in order for us to, to cooperate, you know, i-in a society and to build a society, we, we need to function off, you know, these shared beliefs or these shared fictions, whatever the fuck we're gonna, frame them as. And what we do though is The, the, the shared fictions or the shared beliefs that are the most important, we try and find, things that can embody or objects or items or units that can embody the elements that allow that shared fiction to be as robust as possible. So the reason to this date that fiat is, you know, still around or that, you know, we, we- Can sit here and I can give you twenty bucks cash and you'll accept it from me. I hope I won't. Well, fuck you. Now go on, go on. but the reason we can still do that is 'cause there is still a shared belief that that is, you know, what that is. And, you know, what, what we see with hyperinflation is just the collapse of that shared belief or the collapse of that shared fiction. So what I think we've got, you know, moving forward is we've got the, you know, the broad based belief that's Then the, the emergence of these new things, you know, like the two new horses, which is Bitcoin and Libra, and who can gain, you know, market share based on, you know, initial belief, and a lot of people think, you know, Libra is gonna win that race out, but what they're missing is the fact that- Bitcoin has objective, qualities, you know, of its nature that will help reinforce a much stronger, more ingrained belief, because, you know, let, let's use this, let's use an analogy of we could build a, A chair out of, you know, wood or a chair out of fucking paper. It's still, we, we can both objectively believe that it's a chair, but one-- Sorry, we can both subjectively believe that it's a chair, but one objectively has different attributes. Exactly. So, and that is where-- So then more people are gonna want that chair. So over time, more people are going to want the thing with objectively better characteristics. That doesn't mean that money's not a belief system, it still is a belief system, but we choose to believe Or in our own self-interest, we will converge to the belief system that, oh, sorry, we'll converge to the unit that best supports that belief system." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "47:07", "start": 2826.73, "text": "Right. So I think the way-- So I think it's a more nuanced argument, yeah. So I think the way some Bitcoiners have spoken about this is like, instead of shared belief, it's more like shared recognition, right? It's more like this kind of idea that if you're going to use a certain money, you should be using a money like in your own, like in your own perception, you should be thinking, \"Well Use that too, right? And so I think this tension then between like, is it a money or is it not? I think what it's saying is what caused those other people to use that money, and part of that was certain character-characteristics that have been discussed earlier on the podcast, like stock to flow, you know, safety, as well as discussing around ideas of saleableness. So I think that is kind of what that argument, in my view, that's what that's getting at." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "47:51", "start": 2871.1, "text": "Well, let, let me layer it with Further out you get, the more it becomes a subjective belief, because, the people twenty, thirty years from now who are using Bitcoin and not even touching the core protocol, maybe using layer two, layer three, Lightning or whatever, yep, they're going to be using it because the next guy's fucking using it, not because they understand the core. Oh, of course. Right? Of course. So, so then, so what happens is as money progresses, it must be a belief system that more and more people buy into and believe, not necessarily because they understand the core elements of But because the consensus of the, you know, ecosystem or the society within which they're in operates off that belief system. So, a-and the, the thing is, when you remove the core attributes, like what we did with fiat Then the thing can crumble in on itself, and that's how you get this crazy fucking hyperinflation or this crazy collapse of an economic system or a belief system of some sort. You know, if, if you couldn't get an economic-- you couldn't get a collapse of something if it wasn't a belief system in the first place, you know, or if, if, or, or if there's not a belief system in there. So, so money fundamentally is a belief system, but the, the core and it's, What's in the center actually fucking matters if we want it to subsist." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "49:12", "start": 2952.46, "text": "Right. So I guess putting on my Neil Woodfine cap, I would say Maybe the, maybe we're just talking to different, in different senses of what is a belief system, right? So I think the point that, say, Neal would find, or even I have made this similar kind of argument as well, is that What, what, what drove that center part, that was what really what made the money. The, the other stuff just flo- flowed as a result of it anyway, you know? So like, yes, yes, it's true, there's other people who believe in it and so on, but I think it was all because wh- which one was the best money, and then the belief systems were-- belief systems were downstream of the objective characteristics. That's probably one way to think of it." }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "49:51", "start": 2990.88, "text": "Yes. So, so broadly speaking, correct. So that, so that's that. Yes. So I agree with you there. there's probably another argument, but we won't go through this here. I'll-- Maybe we'll link to my article about Homo sapiens and evolution and, you know, how, you know, money came to be as a concept. But I, I think there is a, there's an argument for The idea that money, even as a concept, yes, we might, choose the best objective representation of money to be the best money. So I agree with that, but just the very creation of money as a concept, the reason it, it exists is because we choose to play a game," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "50:31", "start": 3031.28, "text": "For the purpose of building society. So as a result, we need some sort of fabric or some sort of glue within society which is this ability to do work, perform value, add, you know, do something in society, and, you know, have a measure of that that we can then, you know- Use in order to interact with other human beings. So, so that, yeah, it, it goes a little bit deeper, but, but it's not, it's probably not a, It's, it moves into philosophy, right? Yeah. And, and it starts to get more like" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:06", "start": 3065.78, "text": "political philosophy and like, kind of how do societies organize themselves? Correct. And all that sort" }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "51:10", "start": 3070.34, "text": "of stuff. Exactly," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:11", "start": 3071.06, "text": "exactly. So, so," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "51:12", "start": 3071.76, "text": "so it, it basically states that the very essence of requiring money is that we as a society need to, you know, function, so we choose to create this thing called money in order to cooperate, the same way as we've, we've created things called religion or states or laws or governments, et" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:28", "start": 3087.53, "text": "cetera. Yeah. Right? Yeah, We, wrap it up before we get kicked out of this room, and we have to promise them we were just recording a Bitcoin podcast, I swear. But anyway, before we let you go, tell my listeners, you know, those of them who haven't heard you before, where can they follow you and where can they find Amber? Sweet. so Twitter," }, { "speaker": "aleks_svetski", "time": "51:46", "start": 3105.82, "text": "Aleks Svetski. So it's spelled a bit funny, it's A L E K S. S v e t s k i. So I'm on Twitter, you know, I'm always ranting about some stupid shit on there. I mean, I'm on LinkedIn and stuff like that, but that stuff has like become cancer. Yeah, exactly. It's become absolute cancer. And with Amber, like, I mean, if you're in Australia, we can definitely service you, you know, amber dot app, that's it. we're not available overseas yet, but hopefully we'll be in UK and Europe before the end of this year. Oh. yeah, so fingers crossed. and other than that, yeah, thank you again for having me on, bro. Really enjoyed this. and looking forward to doing a round" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "52:26", "start": 3146.03, "text": "three, maybe twenty twenty. Hope you guys enjoyed the chat with Alex. Just remember, check out the sponsors, Kraken and Unchained Capital. Also, if you want to subscribe or get the show notes to my show, you can find them on the website stephanelivera dot com. Lastly, just a reminder to check out ministryofnodes dot com dot au, especially for the Australian listeners, we've got workshops coming up and we are producing content for you guys, so make sure you check that out as well. That's it from me. Thanks guys, see you next time." } ] }