{ "episodeId": "SLP96", "speakers": { "stephan": { "name": "Stephan Livera", "role": "host", "tag": "STEPHAN" }, "max_hillebrand": { "name": "Max Hillebrand", "role": "guest", "tag": "MAX" } }, "segments": [ { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "00:08", "start": 8.17, "text": "Hi and welcome to the Stephan Livera podcast focused on Bitcoin and Austrian economics. Today we are starting the hardware wallet interview series, but first let me introduce the sponsors of the show. So firstly, Kraken, one of the world's biggest Bitcoin exchanges. Over my years in Bitcoin, I've been really impressed with the way they operate. They have a really strong focus on security. They have consistently acted ethically in the space under Jesse Powell's leadership. They're one of the longest standing Bitcoin exchanges and they've got some of the best liquidity in the industry. They've got high trading volume and low fees as well. Recently, Kraken has been making serious progress in the institutional space. It was the first digital asset exchange to have its market data displayed in the Bloomberg terminal, and recently, with their acquisition of Interchange, they are providing best-in-class accounting reconciliation and reporting services for cryptocurrency hedge funds. Asset managers and fund administrators to learn more and sign up, go to the Kraken link in the show notes. Next, Unchain Capital, they do Bitcoin financial services and also offer a two of three multi-signature vault product. So that means you can use a Trezor or a Ledger wallet and maintain control with your two separate keys and reduce that single point of failure risk, because a multi-signature helps protect you against the proverbial five dollar wrench attack, and you can distribute those keys. If you create With Unchained Vault, you also get three free months of access to Safedina Moose's Bitcoin Standard Research Bulletin. Unchained also offer Bitcoin collateralized loans, allowing you to get USD liquidity without selling your bitcoins, so this can be more tax efficient for you. And in that scenario, your bitcoin is stored in a dedicated multisig address under collaborative custody with Unchained holding one of three keys, you hold a second key, and Unchained's independent third party key agent hold the third key. So to learn more, go to the Unchained Capital link in the show notes. Okay, guys, so today we are starting the hardware wallet interview series. So we'll actually be having a range of different hardware wallet vendors come on the show to present and represent for their products, as well as some more independent Bitcoiners coming on to give you some of their own views on best practices with hardware wallets. So this first e-episode is really designed for a newbie. So if you're a more experienced listener, make sure you share this with This particular episode with one of your newbie friends who has left their bitcoins on an exchange. This is the targeted episode for that person, and it is with Max Hillebrand. He's a Bitcoin educator and World CryptoNet YouTube broadcaster, and he's got a lot of really good practices to share in terms of how to use hardware wallets and how to think about hardware wallets for a newbie. Onto the interview." }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "02:52", "start": 172.14, "text": "Max, welcome to the show, mate. Hey, Stefan. Finally, good to talk to you again. It's been a while. hey, I've been working on, I've been following it pretty much since the first episode, live as you ex-grown and expanded to what it is now. Fantastic, man. You share so much good knowledge, about Austrian economics and the nuances of Bitcoin. Beautiful. We need more of it, and you're a big part on that front, so thank you for your, very much for all that work that" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "03:17", "start": 197.14, "text": "Oh, well, thank you, Max. Yeah, I mean, it's a pleasure to finally have you on the show as well. I've been meaning to make it happen, but you know how it is, there's always so many people to get on. Look, so just for some of my listeners, what we're gonna try to do is do a bit more of a newbie episode about hardware wallets. And what we might just start with, just, just for the listeners who aren't familiar with you, I think most of them are familiar with you, but just for those who aren't, just give" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "03:45", "start": 224.56, "text": "so I'm an economist by trade, pretty much for my entire life I've been reading, stuff about economics and of course, the Austrian side of you, for many years now, especially Rothbard. I mean, the heroes here, hanging at the wall, they, they're fantastic and, done phenomenal work to advance the, the study of human, action, which is quite beautiful. and the more I gotten into Bitcoin and all the cypherpunk tools that we have at our disposal to actually live out by these ideals Individuals, and I think Bitcoin is one of the many tools that we have, and just within Bitcoin, there are so many more tools, absolutely fantastic that we're all, growing and building this together." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:24", "start": 263.79, "text": "Fantastic, yeah. I mean, you do a lot of great work over at the World Crypto Net and, just on Twitter as well, and some of the work that you've done, contributing. but today what we're gonna do is something a little bit different. Hopefully, this episode for my listeners, you can pass this on to your newbie friend" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "04:44", "start": 283.68, "text": "Episode for them, okay? So we're gonna try and walk through what that newbie might be feeling, right? They're still learning a little bit about, you know, in their mind it's crypto, right? But you and I know it's more Bitcoin, but in their mind they might be thinking, \"Well, hey, I've just bought some bitcoins and maybe a few other, other altcoins as well, and they may be holding them on some exchange or in some kind of custodial wallet.\" Now, that person might ask you, Max, they might think, \"Well, Max, problem. Why can't I just leave it on the exchange?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "05:17", "start": 316.72, "text": "Well, that's a very good question, right? And it comes down to the fundamental problem that we have with Bitcoin or that Bitcoin is trying to solve, and that is defense of your property rights in your own money, right? Meaning that you have something that nobody can take back, or take away from you, rather. and this is where Bitcoin shines. This is what it is designed to do, and it is only designed to do that if it has been used properly, right? It's a tool, and any tool can That it emerges then all the things that you desire, and it actually solves your problem. And with Bitcoin, that is exactly what we have a choice here. Either we use the tool not properly, right? We give our keys to a third party and we trust them, right? Because they're good guys, come on. And then, well, most likely that trust will sooner or later be broken. But the cool thing is that with Bitcoin, we don't have to have to trust anyone, right? When you run your own full node and you keep your own keys, there's literally nothing, that Your Bitcoin is done right. so this is why we want to do this, right? Defense, first and foremost." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "06:20", "start": 380.01, "text": "Okay, Max. So picking up from there. So Bitcoin is this special, unique technology, right? but if I'm a newbie, I might be thinking, \"Well, okay, so I've heard about these hardware wallets, I've heard about these devices like the Trezor or the Ledger or the Coldcard, maybe, but aren't these hardware wallet devices expensive?\"" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "06:44", "start": 403.75, "text": "Well, there is some cost to it, absolutely. and well, several parts to that cost. First, it's gonna cost you a couple of satoshis, right? You, you will have to spend your Bitcoin, and give that to an entrepreneur so that he will provide a service to you. And the question is, is that service valid for you? And this building of a hardware wallet is actually not that easy. It's, it's very difficult, and the, these entrepreneurs have to invest a lot of their capital, into building these tools." }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "07:11", "start": 431.34, "text": "so Twice a little yourself, and that is of course empowered your Bitcoin. though also I would say it's more about education as well, right? this is also a capital cost, right? Your time and your attention to really sit down and try to understand this, and you're doing it already by listening to podcasts like these, right? And you're way ahead of the curve in this sense. but also invest in your education, right? Make sure that you really understand what you are doing here, and how you can use these tools properly. and that I think Also something to be considered." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "07:43", "start": 463.43, "text": "Yeah, right. so look, I think from the newbie perspective as well, they might also know this. They might know that, okay, it's not the ideal practice to leave it on the exchange, but they might feel-- They might feel like they're not confident. They might feel like they're scared and that they might screw it up and they might lose their bitcoins. Maybe from, you know, again, from the newbie point of view, they might think maybe it's safer for me to leave it on an exchange. What would you say to" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "08:07", "start": 487.4, "text": "that? Well," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "08:12", "start": 491.7, "text": "For third party and securing your own cryptographic, keys. and, you know, with Bitcoin specifically, so, so, so, so, so many trusted third parties, have been compromised, and when they were trusted with the private keys, that means that the Bitcoin are gone. And because of the design of Bitcoin, these Bitcoin are gone forever, and you will never get them back, because now they are on the proper private key of someone else. and you can't break that, unfortunately. well, fortunately, that's a feature, not a bug, We see just with the track record of Bitcoin, trust to third parties, our security holds. And what we also see, maybe looking b- on, on some other technologies, people already use cryptographic keys in their daily lives every single day, right? How many, SSH keys does your computer have, and you don't even know that you're, that you're using it? You're using HT- HTTPS every single day, and these have cryptographic keys, right? So you are already in control of some of your cryptographic keys, and it's actually not that hard Hard. I mean, with some education, you can do that within really seconds, generating new keys and storing them properly and using them every single day. This is absolutely doable, so it's not as scary as it sounds, and you already do it every day. Now you just use these crypto co- cryptographic tools not just to encrypt your communication, but also to protect the property rights in your sound money." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "09:36", "start": 575.73, "text": "Excellent. And now, if I'm a newbie, there's a lot of different hardware wallet products out there. How should I think about selecting a hardware wallet product?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "09:47", "start": 586.83, "text": "Very good question, and that is part of this, education, right? And research that you have to do and do your own due diligence, right? Don't trust, but verify. And here I would say, well, there are, let's say, three different main options, and they are quite good to show what is possible. so for example, if you are a shaker conner, right? You want to gamble a bit, then it's still better to do this with your own private keys, right? And in, in most of these shakers," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "10:16", "start": 616.31, "text": "Shitcoins is strictly worse than not holding shitcoins. Right. Yeah, yeah, sure. So, so then if you want to do that, there are, two, maybe three options, and that would be, for example, the Trezor, which is the OG of, of hardware wallets. they invented that pretty much, Satoshi Labs with Slash and Stick, and Alina, that they build a beautiful product here, and that can, do shitcoins. The drawback, or well, the, the beauty of this," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "10:46", "start": 646.27, "text": "Probably one of the most well-reviewed, pieces of software in the Bitcoin ecosystem, probably as much, as Bitcoin Core itself or something like Electrum. so, so really this, this is a very well-reviewed hardware wallet and pretty good. However, because it is open-source, it does not have a hardware secure module, because that was back in the days, pretty, pretty, and still very difficult to actually get, well, because, well, closed-source stuff sucks. and if you want to have very secure, defense against the physical Attacks. So if someone is physically holding your hardware wallet, then you really should want to have one of these hardware secure modules. And there, the ledger has one of these, and thus it is pretty secure from this physical attack point of, view. and, though the drawback is the ledger is closed source, right? So you don't really know what's going on in there, and you don't know if the private keys are handled properly. so that would be kind of the two, the two main options which, which you want to go, complete open Very, very rigorous peer review or closed source with some more promised, security properties of the chip, and that would be Trezor or, Ledger." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "11:57", "start": 716.86, "text": "Right. and then what about the Coldcard? What are your views on that and whether that is suitable for a newbie or not suitable for a newbie?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "12:06", "start": 726.45, "text": "Well, it kind of depends on, on what kind of newbie it is. If it's, if it's a blockchain newbie, then most likely it's not the right thing. If it's a Bitcoin newbie who really wants to- To really get into Bitcoin and Bitcoin only, yes, this is a very, very good tool. Why so? Well, it kind of combines two of these approaches. It is absolutely one hundred percent libre and open source, both of course, the software, the firmware, and the hardware. So the hardware chip itself, designed and manufactured by, Peter, Peter, well, DocSacks on Twitter and, and NVK, and then also, it's-- it has open hardware with a hardware secure module. So they do have physical security against people who hold the cold card, right, and have physical access, with this hardware secure module. Plus, they made it that it is open source, right? They actually negotiated with their supply chain, to-- and they have so much leverage in their market that they actually said, \"We only buy the...\" product if it is open source, and thus they made it happen, which is fantastic. and this is Bitcoin only. Why it's a feature, not a bug. Keep it simple and keep it stupid. and adding a thousand one shi coins isn't keeping it simple, it introduces a lot, a lot of security risks. plus you're not gonna run a full node on any of these shi coins anyway, so, yeah. and, and thus it's Bitcoin only, it's open source hardware with a hardware secure module that has all of the Writing the pips themselves. this is a beautiful hardware wallet, and I can only recommend it." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "13:46", "start": 826.43, "text": "Right. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to unpack in that, I think. but let's say, you know, I'm a newbie, I, you know, I've got a job, I've got a family, I've got a life. It's a lot of time to, you know, it's a lot of effort to try and learn how to do this right, and I've seen, you know, maybe I've got friends who made a mistake" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "14:10", "start": 849.96, "text": "Plus, what are some good resources as well?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "14:13", "start": 852.73, "text": "Well, I think it's, it's just good to, you know, take a couple hours out of your, days and, invest in this, really sit down and try to learn this. And then there are many sources of knowledge that you can go to and accumulate to try to understand it. I, I honestly believe that it's absolutely doable for anyone, who wants to accumulate this. so I would go to the official documentation, of each of these projects. so trezor dot io, And Coldcardwallet dot com, and each of them most likely have a very, very well documented archive of how exactly step by step to use their hardware wallet. And now that is for people who want to read, right? and maybe they have some videos as well, but of course, there are other ways. there are podcast episodes where you get like the high level conversations. podcasts are a bit difficult to go into the technicals, so most likely, the better place for these hardware wallet reviews, and how to guides is YouTube, right? go look About the cold card, for example, I think, twenty videos or so, and there are many, many more, by other awesome content creators about the nuances of every hardware wallet. and, of course, we'll follow a Stephan's, podcast here because, I know that the next coming episodes will teach you exactly the nuances of all of this." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "15:28", "start": 928.34, "text": "Great. So, look, are there any tips for when that person might get stuck? So let's say they're trying to do a certain thing, whether that is to, you know, learn a- About how to initialize the wallet or maybe the some-somewhere there's an error. What is the best way to get unstuck?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "15:49", "start": 949.23, "text": "I, I think the, the first way is always to duck-duck-go it, right? Look it up on the internet. Pretty sure someone else had the problem before you, and hopefully he's documented it somewhere in this knowledge archive, and maybe you find it on a Stack Exchange or just on a random Reddit post or wherever. but, you know, you can look, and maybe learn something on the way. though of course, And you want to have, like, real support, reach out to the peers. there are many different forums for that, Twitter, Reddit, right? Ask the questions yourself. Why not open a Stack Exchange question? and what I personally love to do is join the chat groups. all of these, projects pretty much have their IRC channels or, their Telegram groups, of, I don't know, probably no Facebook groups. But, the, the, the cool thing here is that most of these projects, or, well, Unity around most of them, and, if you then are in these Telegram groups and you ask a question, well, maybe you get, like a person working for the company to answer it. Maybe it's even Slash who's hanging out on the chat, right there, right? or then, you have a dedicated peer who is himself a user of this product who still wants to help you out because he maybe has the same problem, just a couple weeks ago and now he's figured it out and now he's willing to share this knowledge with you" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "17:10", "start": 1029.98, "text": "Try to learn and to grow and to gossip with others about this awesome knowledge and accumulate as much as you can." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "17:17", "start": 1036.63, "text": "Right. And I think another tip that might be useful for newbies as well is try to show that you've done some work, that maybe you tried to Google it, but this-- you couldn't find the result. And I think then people tend to be more supportive or happy to help you when you've shown some willingness and proactiveness." }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "17:35", "start": 1054.9, "text": "Yes, exactly. And that is especially prevalent in these chat groups, right? Because they're oftentimes the The same, s- the same stuff comes up over and over and over again. And because of the design of such a huge chat group, the, the knowledge kind of disappears into the logs, right? And nobody really scrolls up. and, and there, I think it's really, important for these, open source projects to build a good documentation, right? And many of them have, th-th-where you can easily link users to. So if the same question comes up, it's also nice for those who know about these knowledge archives" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "18:10", "start": 1089.94, "text": "The exact answer, right? and if you have these links available and you know about them, then share them out. and this is also in a rather efficient way for, for sharing this knowledge, right? Because you only have to share the link and not explain it a hundred times. But then it's also a way to, to tell others, hey, look, there's the archive, actually go there and look stuff up, it's quite good. so it, it kind of is on both sides, right? We want to have the, the, the students seeking out" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "18:39", "start": 1118.7, "text": "the In a way that students can find it easily. Excellent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "18:43", "start": 1123.05, "text": "And so, let's talk a little bit more specifically around the flows, or at least the, the, the cycle that a typical newbie might go through. So, I guess it starts with buying a hardware wallet. So, what are your tips around who to buy that wallet from and how to make sure you're buying a legitimate product?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "19:06", "start": 1145.64, "text": "Yes, that is very, very important because here the supply chain is a big attack vector. Right? And especially the last mile of shipping. How, how do you know that, that the like stuff that you buy on eBay, for like half the price of the real hardware wallet, is that really the right thing? I don't know. Do you? and this really is, is a level of trust that you have to go into, right? We can't eradicate this all, but I would always recommend to buy from, the source itself. So go to the main website and see if you can buy it there. If it's a big hassle with shipping," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "19:40", "start": 1179.96, "text": "And they have the, well, quote unquote, stamp of approval and web of trust, of these, entrepreneurs providing the service. And then it's always very, very important to, when you get this package, to check for, for tampering, right? Has the package been opened with? and there are some packages that do this really, really well, like, for example, the Coldcard, right? This has a security seal, and you absolutely one hundred percent can see if the package has been tampered with it, if it has been opened. If it Then unfortunately, it seems that this was kind of a scam and some people tried to get your hardware wallet or at least be very, very, very careful and only proceed with great, great caution. so always check if the package that you get first comes from the right source and second has not been tampered with on the way. and then when you have your hard wallet at your own house, that's then when we can proceed." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "20:32", "start": 1232.0, "text": "Right. And also there are some instances where- You know, unscrupulous people sold a hardware wallet with the seed or the words already generated. What should we do in that case?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "20:48", "start": 1247.89, "text": "Oh, well, of course, never ever send money or Bitcoin to these, public keys of these private keys. why? Because you're not the only one who knows these private keys, right? Someone else has written them down before, and anyone who knows these private keys can spend the Bitcoin. thus, you don't really own these Bitcoin because you're not the only one knowing about them. and therefore, you should delete that wallet, and at least start a new wallet. right? So, for example, when you, you generate a new twenty-four mnemonic words, and the, you write them down securely yourself, and then you know because you yourself have generated them that nobody else knows about them, and thus they are your Bitcoin, right? But in-- it, it really depends here on this case, because who gave you that hardware wallet with the twenty-- with the seed already enabled? And is, is that like the, like the physical hardware actually also a scam? Right? That, that might be as well. So in this case, to be honest, I wouldn't use that hardware wallet at all, or like this specific hardware, because someone else has had it, and unless I really trust that person, I, I wouldn't, continue using that specific hardware wallet. but that really depends on" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "22:01", "start": 1321.04, "text": "Yeah, look, I think it, I agree with you. I think it should be taken as that's an expensive lesson. You should throw it out and get a new one. Let's talk about initialization, right? So this for the newbies, this is a process where when you first buy that hardware wallet, you need to set it up. So Max, can you tell us a little bit about what does that look like for the user, like they're opening the device, they are plugging it in, how they-- what are they doing?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "22:27", "start": 1346.56, "text": "this, again, the nuances depend a bit In general, you first can, set a PIN, to that hardware device. So this is a, probably a number, hopefully a long one, I think mine are always like sixteen digits or something, that, that, protects this physical hardware. Right? This is the PIN to unlock the hardware to then unlock your private keys. so without the PIN, you can't use the hardware. but the PIN doesn't necessarily have to do with With the private Bitcoin keys, right? so the PIN is for the hardware, not necessarily for the private keys. that is a big, differentiation here. and so once you have set up that PIN to secure the hardware, then it shows you your newly created mnemonic seeds or your mnemonic word, right, which are twelve or twenty-four English or, well, many other languages, words that represent your private key. and this private key then- Then, here again is, is very important to back up, and to back up in a secure location. right? So for example, when you are in a public place, in a cafe, and you write down these mnemonic words with like hundred people around you and probably fifty smartphones pointing at that paper that you're writing on, and cameras. Exactly, right? So then the, the re-- the risk of someone else knowing your my-- your mnemonic words is relatively high. And again, whoever knows your mnemonic words It has full control of your Bitcoin, and thus it makes really a lot of sense to do this in a private moment, right? sit down in, in, like your own house, make sure that nobody else is in the room. I would even go further, make sure that you don't have your phone with you, right? Because that has a camera, it also has a microphone, right? It also has a vibration detector, and a bunch of other stuff. just go into a room without any electronics, sit down in your bathroom, If you can, protect yourself just a little bit more, it's not really too much of a hassle. So just make sure that there really is no one around, neither in, in meat space as well as in cyberspace. This is a moment in time just for you, because you must be the only one that knows about these private keys." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "24:46", "start": 1486.13, "text": "Exactly, and I think it might be useful to just talk about some of the potential attacks that can happen that aren't typically thought about. So some of these, what we call side channel attacks. So can you just explain a little bit? Bit around what those are and, you know, that's why we try to, you know, take certain precautions when we're setting up the device." }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "25:09", "start": 1508.57, "text": "Yeah. So there, there are several side channel attacks and, and- I, I, I guess the, the overarching theme of them is that it means it's communication from the hardware wallet to some other device. and you can maybe spy on this communication and reveal some of the secrets that the hardware wallet contains. And that can be just some artificial metadata, like maybe the, the size of a transaction that is being sent, or signed, something like this. or it could be very, very bad And it can be a, even the public keys, for example. and so you know exactly, as an outside observer, what, specific transa- or what money is being held on that private key, and then if it's worthy to attack or, or not. or you could potentially, and that would probably be the worst case, even leak the private keys, right? By just spying on the communication between hardware wallet and the computer used to interact with it. and this then, you know, is, is- The question, how do you communicate, this path and how do you make sure that it is secure? And here with a hardware secure module, that is the big, big, big first step, that makes everything a lot easier, because this really protects against these physical types of attacks, as I called them earlier, right? And, these, this is a physical attack, right? You, you plug a special cable in and you check what bytes are being transferred through that USB cable, for example, that would be a side channel attack, you to the device. And here, if you have a hardware secure module, that is a lot better, than not having one. So I, I would recommend in that case, if that is your threat model, to use something like Ledger or Coldcard." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "26:55", "start": 1615.21, "text": "Right. and what is the threat model for a newbie?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "26:58", "start": 1618.33, "text": "Well, it's, it's the type of person or entity you, you defend against, right? If, for example, you are in, like, a loving relationship with, with your wife and your children, then maybe you don't Maybe trust them enough, that they won't steal your private keys and run away with your Bitcoin. Well, maybe, right? And then in this type of threat model, right? Well, your, your children aren't really a threat. So it might be okay to leave the unencrypted mnemonic, for example, in their room, right? Because they can see the private keys, because you trust them that they won't spend it. but of course, if, for example, you live in a, a shared apartment and there are a bunch of strangers running around You don't trust all of them, right? And you don't want them to have knowledge to your, of your private keys and thus access to all of your Bitcoin. So you might use something like a hardware wallet, to physically encrypt your, private keys so that only you, who knows the PIN, then also has access to this money, right? So Or if you are, you know, someone being, well, threatened by huge tyrants, right? You're, you're a, a reporter, a journalist, who should learn to code. well, no, let's say you are a coder, building some very awesome, technologies that people don't want you, to build, then you need to defend yourself maybe against even more elaborate attacks, right? And it, it always depends on your individual case of who is attacking you, on how much you individualistic choice, and, you know, think about that. i-it really is important to know before you go and build your further strategy." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "28:40", "start": 1719.68, "text": "Okay, so let's say the user now they've set up their device and they have got their twenty word, twenty-four word seed, and they've got a PIN, and they've chosen a sufficiently long PIN to help give some additional protection. Now, if that user still feels a bit uneasy, what are some ways to ease into that experience should they use? Testnet, should they do small transactions first?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "29:05", "start": 1745.11, "text": "Oh, yes, very, very good point. and I'm, I'm the biggest fan of Testnet. I'm, I'm a Testnet maximalist, so to say. why? I think because it has several reasons. Well, the first is nothing really can go wrong. I mean, these are fake Bitcoin, right? These aren't real Sats. And so if you, if you, lose your private keys, yeah, it doesn't really matter too much. if you send of, all" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "29:31", "start": 1771.39, "text": "It doesn't really matter, you can always get new fake Bitcoin. so there isn't really a risk of losing your sats, and that is a very high priority to me, right? I don't want to be, that guy that all of a sudden lost a couple of thousand or even millions of sats, just on accident because he, he made a stupid mistake, while setting up his hardware wallet. So always be testing, and here Testnet is awesome, and hopefully all hardware wallets provide Testnet, if they don't, don't use So," }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "30:04", "start": 1803.94, "text": "that's a good point. okay, so I think it might also be useful then to think about recovery. So Quick example, if I'm a newbie, maybe I'm not so clear about what it actually takes to recover a device. Is it, is it just the PIN that I need, or do I also need to keep the mnemonic seed?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "30:25", "start": 1825.4, "text": "So for the hardware wallet itself, that is the PIN. you have full access to the entire hardware wallet with the PIN. So if you lose your PIN, unfortunately, that hardware wallet is no longer accessible. Now, some hardware models, ex-especially those with a good hardware secure module like the Coldcard, even means if you don't have access to the PIN, you can't even reset the device. There is no factory reset in good hardware wallets. and so this means that without the, the PIN, the physical Coldcard itself is a brick, and you, you will never be able to use it again, not even for a completely new wallet, right? So the PIN is only for the hardware wallet. And then if you want to spend, though, your, your Can do so without the hardware wallet if you have the mnemonic, which then reveals your, your private keys, right? Your seed. And this, this mnemonic can be used most likely if it is an interoperable standard like most wallets are today, on different wallets. So for example, you can use, seed that you've generated with Trezor, and you can put that, for example, into your Electrum hot wallet on your laptop, right? and then the Electrum wallet on your laptop Now has the secret of the treasure hardware wallet, which of course means that the hardware wallet feature is now broken because the seed is on a hot wallet, but it means that you have full access to this Bitcoin from your Electrum wallet. So even if you, for example, lose access to the hardware wallet, if you have the mnemonic, then you have access to your Bitcoin. Now, the thing is though, that you have also the opportunity to encrypting your mnemonic, right? To, to have this backup show not the actual private key, but that the backup itself of this mnemonic, right? the paper backup that you do is in encrypted form, so that you need an additional passphrase to reveal the actual secret, that reveals your private keys of, your Bitcoin. and so if you have chosen to use such a- A passphrase as an additional layer of defense, then you need both the mnemonic backup and the passphrase in order to spend your Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "32:36", "start": 1955.98, "text": "Excellent point. And so let's just talk to that passphrase component. So, for example, on the Trezor, you can find that in the advanced tab, and there's basically, you can think of it like it is a twenty-fifth word for your seed. Instead of twenty-four words, now it's kind of like you've got a twenty-fifth word. Can you just talk to how that is actually another- The whole, in some sense, another whole wallet, and you have-- and the consideration around backups and recovery now, because you've got to tell your heirs that twenty-fifth word or that passphrase as well. Yes," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "33:09", "start": 1988.9, "text": "exactly. so, so maybe a little bit about how, how, how these things are actually done in a workflow level. so first, what you do, or the hardware wallet is it generates a huge random number, and this huge, huge, huge random number is your seed, right? The secret to derive all your private keys from. But of course, the huge random number is very difficult to write down as a human. thus, we take a, a word list and we transform these, the seed into twenty-four English words so that every word Corresponds to exactly one part of, this random number. and it's just a human-readable interpretation of that same number, right? The one means the other, and the other means the one. and then if you add a twenty-fifth word, right? If you add a additional, passphrase to this standard mnemonic, then you also change the seed itself, right? That is now another huge random number. It's, it's like having a huge random number And then adding some additional numbers to it. That's the, in this context, the exact same thing as having twenty-four words, the huge random number, and then adding the twenty-fifth word, right? Another bit of randomness. and this means that the twenty-five words are different than the twenty-four words, right? The new seed that is being, created, the quote-unquote encrypted, is different than the, than the original seed, the, the standard random number that we started with. so here to recover then, you need both. You need to have the twenty-four mnoms and you have to have the passphrase. But the cool thing is, you can store them in different places, right? You can have, for example, your twenty-four words in a safe deposit box somewhere, and then you have the passphrase in your home safe deposit box, somewhere else. and then, you know, because these two are separated, if only one of them gets compromised, if someone, you know, gains access to one of these, pieces of knowledge, then You're still good, because you need to have two of them in order to actually, spend these Bitcoin again." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "35:15", "start": 2114.66, "text": "Excellent. And let's talk about then the backups and the encryption of, of these pieces of, crucial pieces of information. So obviously you might, h- I mean, depending on your setup, but if you were just keeping the hardware wallet at home, or if you were leaving the hardware wallet in a safety deposit box or, and then- And you might need to keep a copy of that mnemonic and/or that passphrase. So how should a newbie think about that in terms of segregating that?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "35:48", "start": 2147.82, "text": "You know, it really again depends on your threat model, right? Who do you defend against? And so for me personally, I have two vastly different experiences. For testnet, I'm, I have horrible opsec. The PIN to my, to my hardware wallet is one one one one, right? The unencrypted mnemnics lie next to me on the table, right? So, like, for, for me on testnet, I don Not care at all about my security, right? Because it's fake Bitcoin. so here I have horrible obsic, and there's no separation, there's no encryption, it's very, very weak. And maybe that's okay, for, for your threat model, right? In your individual case. But, you know, for, for my real sets, I'm so paranoid about them that I don't-- I will not tell you exactly how I do it, because that will reveal some, some of my strategies. Of course, yeah. Right? Don't, don't reveal anything Right? I, I would, I would say that it's always, always very important to encrypt your backups, and this, this goes for anything really, but it goes especially for your private keys, to your Bitcoin. so how, how do you do that? Well, a passphrase is pretty, pretty good, because then you get, the, the mnemonic word in encrypted form, and mnemnics are very easy to back up, right? It's writing down them on a piece of paper or stamping them into metal, right? It's Written down backup is very, very good, so that is highly recommended. though some hardware wallets, like for example, the Coldcard, provide this fantastic feature of doing a backup onto a SD card, for example. and here the backup is encrypted properly, with the secure random number generator of the hardware wallet. So in the case of the Coldcard, you can generate a, a, a zipped archive of your private keys and a bunch of the metadata about your wallet, and then you encrypt Encrypt this with like two hundred fifty six bit security, which means that your passphrase isn't just one word, but it is actually twelve words, right? So this is like a completely new mnemonic seed with all the security in the cryptography side of you just to encrypt your backups, right? And then you know, these backups are so securely encrypted, you could theoretically even upload them to, to your Google server, right? Or to any other third party server, although that might again lead some met-- leak some metadata. But At least the content, the private keys itself, are so securely encrypted that no one is ever gonna break it. and, you know, here these are the different threat models. always encrypt your backups and store them then in encrypted form in different locations, both physically as well as in cyberspace." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "38:25", "start": 2304.92, "text": "Fantastic. And the other point is typically there are certain devices, so a quick example is the Crypto Steel that an individual may use to back up their 12 or 24 word seed. And so I think as you're pointing out there that the user needs to be very careful where they leave that device, because if they have not used a passphrase, then somebody could steal their bitcoins, right?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "38:51", "start": 2331.17, "text": "Exactly, right? The, the advantage of a hardware wallet is that in Meetspace we have encrypted, private keys, right? You need the PIN in order to get the private keys. That's the security model here of, of the hardware wallet in Meetspace. Well, for the backups, right? For your mnemonic words, if they aren't encrypted, then the Meetspace defense is whatever Meetspace defense you put around that, right? If, if you have it in your drawer under your socks, then that's pretty easy to find. If you have it in your own physical House, somewhere like you need, a bunch of cement and, and iron cages, then maybe that's good enough physical security. But nevertheless, people might gain physical access to this backup, and then if you don't have it encrypted, they have full knowledge of your private keys and thus they're no longer your Bitcoin. and then, you know, you really have to be careful here. very good always to encrypt your backups and then to put these backups into secure locations, and you know, to spread them out. and you might also want to consider Not just the attack model of, of humans, but the attack model of nature as well. You know, if you have paper backups, what happens if it starts to rain and your house floods, right, all of a sudden? then are your private keys just gonna be deleted? Do you have other backups as well? you know, or what if your house burns down? are you really secure in, in a fire secure safe? or, you know, is the soft drawer just gonna light up and the paper is gonna be proof? so here, that's where Grave my private keys on something durable. you could use gold, you know, that would be utility of gold, or, or you could use something like metal. For example, I have like physical stamps, of, of hard metal that I put on a shin piece of, a thin piece of metal, to then hammer, and this will stamp into this thin piece of metal, the letter. and so if I have enough thin pieces of le- iron or steel or whatever that is, I can easily encrypt, Up all of my monomics on these durable, fireproof, waterproof, shockproof, electricity proof, you know, really secure physical manifestations of my private keys, that are the-- or of the monomics that are of course encrypted. Excellent." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "41:06", "start": 2466.16, "text": "Yeah, I love that explanation. And let's now talk a little bit about the privacy considerations. So we don't have time to kind of go through the full detail of it, but perhaps you just wanna outline some basics for the newbie in terms of Of what should they be thinking of and what information are they giving off by using, say, a Trezor or a Ledger or a Coldcard?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "41:29", "start": 2488.74, "text": "Yes. So the, the prime, you know, design of a hardware wallet is to protect your private keys, right? The keys that you use, to sign your transactions. and, you know, assuming that that is in order and that everything is secure here, this doesn't guarantee anything about privacy. The privacy side comes with whom do you reveal your public keys to? Right? How do you tell which co- which private keys, or the, like the public side of your private keys, right? They can't calculate the private keys, so they can't take your Bitcoin, but they can calculate which Bitcoin addresses, and thus which Bitcoin coins, belong to you, and this can lead to degrading of your privacy, right? Then someone else might know exactly how much money you have and where you spend it on, and without a shadow of a doubt, right? He has cryptographic proof of it. so the question is, how can you and for example, like your ledger is, in this regard, absolutely terrifying, because you must, at any times, if you, if you initialize the wallet or if you upgrade the firmware, connect it to the ledger live application, as a desktop application, that you run on your computer or laptop, and that, you know, sends a copy of the private, of the public key to the ledger service, ser-- or server, and that's everything about you, quite literally. and then only can you upgrade, this device Device, and then only can you use this device with the Ledger Live software, and that's where all the, all their shipping management is housed as well. you know, and, and that really is a huge, huge, huge problem because now they know exactly what, you know, all your addresses. And there are other ways though of, of doing this, and well, that is mainly running your own full node. It's, one of the only options basically, to, to really reclaim that privacy in, in this sense, because then you no It for yourself, and thus nobody knows which coins you're interested in, because you haven't asked anyone. and that is, you know, the main-- or one of the many reasons of running your own full node. and here you can use, for example, the Electrum, wallet interface together with your Electrum personal server, to connect this Electrum software, to your own full node, and then plug in the hardware wallet to Electrum, to, well, communicate and to, you know, check which coins you Cast transactions. so all this, you know, can be done with your full node together, either with Electrum or then my favorite way of doing this with Wasabi Wallet, because Wasabi Wallet is very private by default, even if you don't run a full node, the private keys aren't shared, sorry, the public keys aren't shared with anyone, and that is very, very good. so if you want to use your, hardware wallet in a private way, very conveniently, plug and play by default, then I can" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "44:21", "start": 2661.27, "text": "Right, and yeah, Wasabi Wallet's, I think, a good trade-off for a newbie to look at, although it may be a little bit confusing for, depending how newbie that person is, on how to use it. but what would be some good guides or documentation that exist, or, or perhaps they, just point them towards your videos on how to use Wasabi Wallet?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "44:43", "start": 2683.47, "text": "yes, there, there are many great educators share knowledge on, on Wasabi, for two payments, you know, you, you've as well, six one o two, on at Bitcoin only, and I've also done a, a couple videos, ab-about Wasabi on pretty much step by step exactly how to use it. so the video side is covered. and right now I'm working with the peers on, a documentation archive, at wasabiwallet.io/docs. and here then it will be in written form all the nuance or many, many nuances of Bitcoin privacy, and especially Wasabi Wallet, with step And all the good stuff. so, you know, there, there, there is this knowledge out there, you still have to seek it and you still have to understand it. I, I agree, Wasabi isn't yet completely newbie friendly, absolutely not. we have a long, long way to go. but it's a good first step, and anyone who, who wants to invest that time and who really has the need, to defend not just his property rights in the sense, of, of theft, but also his property rights in the sense of defi Really good. Yes, there is a learning curve to it, but we're building to make it better every day." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "45:55", "start": 2755.3, "text": "Great. And let's talk about destruction of a device or trying to get rid of a device. Do you have any tips there and in terms of things you have to be careful with, with the seed?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "46:08", "start": 2767.58, "text": "Yes. so, well, the, the first question is always, do you really want to delete the private keys? Really? Like, really, really? Because, you know, private keys in the sense of Bitcoin spend money. And so if there is Money to be spent by the private key, but you have deleted it, then you can no longer spend it, which would be very, very bad. And remember that in Bitcoin, people can send money to old addresses of yours, right? and then this means that you could get money sent to a public key of a private key that you have already deleted, and that is not too good, right? So, there might not be too many cases where you really want to delete your private key completely, right? so always keep a backup somewhere, I would say at least. And then though if you want to destroy a hardware, that's a different question, right? And this hardware, can be reset depending on the unique manufacturer, but there should be a reset option in all of them, in a way that it deletes the private key from the storage mechanism, either the microchip or the hardware secure module, and it overwrites that data with random zeros and ones that are no longer your private key. that would be the first step, right? Delete the data From the device. And if it's a hardware secure module, you can actually prove that it was deleted, right? You can roll over a seed, and then you, you know, have under some security assumptions, pretty good, proof that this data now is actually deleted. But I would go even further, delete or destroy the physical device, you know, smash it with a hammer, burn it, cut it into pieces, you know, even the cold card, it has the Mark II version, it has a little error right next secure module is placed. And right next to it, it says \"shoot here.\" and i-it is very advised, and there are videos on y- online where, where people are actually doing this. If you shoot your hardware wallet coldcard, then at this spot, then yes, the hardware secure module gets obliterated, and then you have absolute certainty that the private keys, will never ever be found again. so, so that is pretty, pretty cool. make sure that you, you know, do this securely if you really want to, And then what to do with the weight? Like, I don't know, throw, throw it into different, garbage cans on five different continents. And, you, you can go paranoid if you, if you want." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "48:29", "start": 2909.28, "text": "Well, yeah, I mean, there, there are many different levels of, paranoia, but I suppose at this level, we're just talking about trying to take that newbie off an exchange, so, yeah. But I think, you know, good for them to know what is the best practice there. so let's talk about best practices now with software Of malware. Do you have any recommendations for beginners if they are, let's say, downloading Electrum, might they need to verify the signatures or what are some other good practices there?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "49:04", "start": 2943.7, "text": "Yes. So, you know, the, the, the sense of the hardware model is that we don't trust the computer, right? We don't trust the software of our main laptop, for example, because it's an operating system, it's huge, many, many bugs, right? and thus the private keys are moved to a separate hardware device, right? But we still need to communicate with our main device in order to build that transaction. and you're absolutely right, if that software is malicious, there can still be cases where it kind of tricks the hardware model, the Wallet into signing a transaction that isn't really right. and, you know, there, there have been many cases of that. and, you know, many attack vectors are possible here in this sense. So it's always, always very important, to do your, research and to verify, the software that you're using. You know, again, that's a huge problem if you're a shitcoiner, I have no clue how you're gonna deal with that, 'cause probably all of these wallets just have trojans left and right. So All of them sign the releases of their firmware, meaning that, or, well, if they don't, then never ever use that wallet ever again, later. but, well, if, if they do, then you can verify that the firmware that you have on your hardware wallet is actually the one that was developed by the developer, right? And you know that there was no man in the middle who gave you a firmware that the author of the software, like the real, entrepreneur, didn't approve of. and that is very, very, Important. Always, always, always verify, PGP signatures, and you know, it's actually very, very easy, if you learn how to do this. you know, there are graphical user interfaces for it as well on all operating systems. But that is just-- it's, it's so, so, so, so, so important, we should do even much more than just verifying the PGP signatures. but then if, if you do that, right? Still make sure that the software itself is good. and, and here to your research" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "51:03", "start": 3063.46, "text": "QT is a pretty good wallet, and with the hardware wallet interface, you can actually connect your hardware wallet to it. then I can recommend, Wasabi as well, you know, still much more review needed on that, piece of software, but, you know, it seems to be quite solid. and well, specifically for the hardware wallet I guess there's, well, Armory, no Armory does not support hardware wallets. yeah, un-unfortunately there aren't too many good, good options out there, but I guess with Electrum, especially connected to your own full node, and Wasabi, we have, we have two pretty strong candidates, and hopefully we will see many, many more, in the future, with the, you know, integration of hardware wallet interface." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:40", "start": 3099.63, "text": "Yeah, great points. I think, yeah, you're right. I think at this point it" }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "51:49", "start": 3109.12, "text": "options like Electrum, etcetera, or Wasabi at this point. But I think that's a-- hopefully that's, that's a pretty good overview now for the Bitcoin newbie. Let's talk a little bit about next steps for that Bitcoin newbie. What are some potential topics or areas or even some software, or concepts that they should be looking to try and learn now once they've gotten to this level?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "52:12", "start": 3131.89, "text": "Yeah, so maybe to keep it initially on, on this hardware, wallet stuff, you know, look into more elaborate ways of backing up your mnemics. for example, the Trezor team has done some great work to bring forth, Shamir's secret sharing, in a, in a quite interoperable standard, so that you can split up your mnemonic words, and your encrypted mnemonic words, by the way, into several groups. so that, you know, instead of having one times twenty-four words, you have five times, twelve words, and you need three of these twelve words in order to get your master secret again. so you kind of split up very securely and in a cryptographically sound way your mnemonic into five different shares, and you need four, three of these, in order to, you know, get back the real private key to spend the Bitcoin. And this can help you a lot with your physical- Defense, right? If you then have, five different secure locations in like three different countries, for example, and you need to travel to all of the-- to three of these places separately in order to get your, your real private key to spend the Bitcoin, that can be really good mechanism for backing up. and, you know, maybe in general stay, stay in-- up to date with, with what's going on. I mean, Schnorr signatures are gonna change the game quite drastically for, for hardware wallets. you know, that will, that Further development, Lightning Network is, for hardware wallet is, is quite a crazy thing. follow Estepan Sneegaroff, who's been here on your pod many times already. He's doing great, great work with Crypto Advance with that hardware wallet, also open source hardware secure module, fantastic. and, you know, scriptable hardware wallets, Coldcard has a couple cool things up their sleeve that they're working on, you know, regarding co-signing scriptable business logic in one of your, cold cards, in a that is fantastic. Oh yeah, we didn't even talk about multisig itself, so that's another can of worms, that, that also, you know, has to do with h-- hardware wallets and, and especially with Trezor and Coldcard. so, you know, the, the rabbit hole goes deep, so I don't think it will be boring. keep on learning." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "54:23", "start": 3263.49, "text": "Yeah, that's great. What about any other, I guess, m-more leaving the world of, let's say, hardware wallets more and kind of custody more would be beneficial for a newbie to learn about." }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "54:40", "start": 3280.26, "text": "You know, learn the why of Bitcoin, why this is so important. and, and here I think economics is just a vitally, vitally important part, and of course, the listeners to your show know that, and, like listening to all your podcasts, they're pretty, pretty sure that they got a good grasp of economics by now, you know, but, but keep on learning about this, the nuances are really, really deep. and it's, you know, when you understand the why of Bitcoin, to actually use it properly in all its different aspects, and then to, to focus on, to take care of your privacy, it, it really, really is a huge, huge, huge problem that we have in the incumbent world. I mean, there's no financial privacy in, in, in fiat world, like forget it, none, zero mil, you're, you're transparent to the core. Never use credit cards, so please not. And, you know, with Bitcoin it's already to that a billion times better. So, you know, even, you know, a basic newbie just having his hardware wallet is much, much, much better than he would ever be in the banking sector, of, of fiat world. But we can do so, so, so much better, and we should strive to do so much better. so, you know, take care of your privacy. run your own full node, that's the second rule, or no, wait, the first rule of, of privacy is never reuse addresses. The second rule of privacy is never reuse addresses. then the third rule is run your own full node. you know, it, it really is important to do all that. We record today at the anniversary, or well, coming at the anniversary, two Where we proved, by, you know, choosing to run our full node, how we can manifest Nakamoto consensus and how we can, you know, evolve it in a way that doesn't break consensus. a beautiful, beautiful event, run your own full node, that is absolutely important, and, you know, get educated about as much as possible." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "56:32", "start": 3391.6, "text": "That's fantastic. Yeah, I think that will hopefully give a great overview for, some Bitcoin newbies out there who might get shared this episode. Let's now, just before we let you go, Max, let's, you know, talk a little bit about what you're working on and if they, let's say they wanna get consulting from you or the, I know you have this HODL hotline, tell them a little bit about yourself and if they want further consulting, how can they find you?" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "56:57", "start": 3416.96, "text": "Yes, so, you know, the, this rabbit hole is quite intense and it's To have solid peers on your side and in your network that, you know, that, that try to help you and share, share knowledge, that, that is really important. And, you know, Stephan and I, we both do this, you know, for, for fun and for free, with our podcasts and everything, and we share a bunch of this, let's say, passive knowledge where you listen to us talk, and, you know, I do that on the World Crypto Network with, with hundreds of videos and, you know, podcasts and, or appearance Consult sessions where we really talk about one specific problem tailor-made, to you as an individual. and there just, you know, you need to have a conversation. and, and there I offer, you know, the hot hotline, just to, you know, for, for a small, donation of, I think what is it, a humble, one million satoshis, I think, then that, over Lightning of course only, well, I, I would accept CoinJoin to Bitcoin as well. then," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "58:01", "start": 3481.06, "text": "So dig down on all the problems that you have. But in general, you know, just reach out, in, in all the, in all the chats, in, in all the groups, and ask your questions there and, and really, you know, seek out this knowledge. And there are many different sources to do this. And I just offer one additional way of, of, of doing this in a, you know, real conversation. so if you like to hotline dot com, it's not just me, there are a bunch of, teachers and educators" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "58:28", "start": 3508.12, "text": "a" }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "58:31", "start": 3511.04, "text": "You know, a lot of the theory, a lot of the economics, a lot of the game theory, a lot of the coding, then also though about using the software, right, for different tools, hardware wallets, software wallets, you know, coin joints and running your own full node and all this, you know, many different ways, that, you know, These teachers can, can help you to, you know, advance, your understanding of Bitcoin, which I think is, is the best investment that you could ever make, and the, it's the biggest investment of your time and your attention, but it also is a bit of your investment of your sats, if you really want to, you know, bootstrap and, you know, get this really going quickly." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "59:06", "start": 3545.66, "text": "Yeah, that's excellent. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today, Max." }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "59:09", "start": 3549.28, "text": "Now, dude, thank you, Stefan. Really," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "59:17", "start": 3556.62, "text": "Because the nuances of this are, are, fantastic, and you shared with me what, what peers you will get on the show. Oh, that's, that's gonna be so exciting. you, you got the good guests, you got the right peers sharing their knowledge, and, keep it up, really. your podcast is, by far, you know, the, the deepest in the rabbit hole and, of, of economics and Bitcoin. And it's, it's very cool to have you on your side, on our side provide here at the end, really, you know, contribute to the open source projects, all of you. it's your responsibility if you use open source projects to contribute back. and you can do that in many different ways. It doesn't at all have to be coding only. Stefan, the work that you've done, you know, spread, spreading the knowledge of, you know, the good tools like Nautilus or Wasabi, or Electrum, it's, it's fundamentally important and with, without peer sharing knowledge, for example, you know Help with documentation, you know, that's, that's one of the tasks that I'm doing right now for Wasabi Wallet is to build this knowledge archive in written form. And of course, it's libre and open source, on, Git. So if, if you want to contribute, if you have a question, then ask it there. if you know the answer to a question, well, then answer it there. and, you know, there, it's not just for one specific project, but for all the open source projects. Again," }, { "speaker": "max_hillebrand", "time": "01:00:46", "start": 3646.62, "text": "This venture, and this goes in many different ways, so be active, be a good peer in the network, don't just be a leech, but give back and, you know, help us grow, this Libra sound money to become this behemoth of proof of work of, of sovereign individuals claiming their sovereignty and, and defending themselves and their property rights. and Stefan, thank you very much, for, for inviting me on the show, and hopefully see you on the next time soon." }, { "speaker": "stephan", "time": "01:01:12", "start": 3672.24, "text": "Hope you found that valuable. Make sure you are subscribed to the podcast using a podcast app so that way you don't miss out on the episodes that are coming. I've got a whole range of interviews with some of the top people to listen to on this, so keep an eye out for that. You can find the show notes on my website stephanlivera.com. If you want to DM me, my handle on Twitter is at stephanlivera, my email is stephanlivera at pm dot me. That's it from me. Thanks guys, and see you next time." } ] }